Video games as art and reinforcing this claim.

[the rye]

I know many feel strongly about the idea that video games are or can indeed be art, however i see very little in the analyzing part of games. Most art such as literature, film and music are analyzed to gain a better understanding of their purpose. So i ask of you to choose a game you see as art and explain it's themes and ideas that it conveys.

 

[the rye]

The way you wrote that sounds like a question set up for school/paper/report.

I have nothing to add to the discussion, I just thought it was an interesting way to start a topic.

I'm trying to get people to elaborate on the idea that video games are art, so far I've seen very few people explain how video games are art beyond the fact that it made them feel some sort of emotion response. If you want a more provoking question... "Video games cannot be art because they lack anything meaningful to say" discuss.

 

[Chewster]

First of all, you have to define what art is. If you cannot do that, then there is no point in going forward. And just about anything can be defined as art, provided you cast a wide enough net.

I view games as being art because they have the power to tell interesting stories in engaging, emotionally provocative ways. All good film , music and literature does the same. As does visual art, to a degree. Video games are just more interactive.

Really, what more is there to say?

 

[Pyramid Head]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

 

[the rye]

First of all, you have to define what art is. If you cannot do that, then there is no point in going forward. And just about anything can be defined as art, provided you cast a wide enough net.

I view games as being art because they have the power to tell interesting stories in engaging, emotionally provocative ways. All good film , music and literature does the same. As does visual art, to a degree. Video games are just more interactive.

Really, what more is there to say?

If we accept the definition of art to be simply a matter of emotion response then a simple horror film could be considered art, this also carries the notion that anything the creator is trying to say is ignored. An emotional response is not enough for art, it has to convey something meaningful.

The fact of the matter is people analyze art, people write books and articles on films, literature, paintings discussing and elaborating on what ideas the particular thing conveys.

 

[the rye]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

 

[Pyramid Head]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

And in the end the arguments you've been seeing are valid. Art is a very poorly defined word, and very reasonable arguments can be made as to why or why not Call of Duty is art. The best anyone can do is point to games with a great design or thought provoking plot because art's definition seems to be open for interpretation.

Besides, you could still be making that argument relating to film. Why is "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" art while Uwe Boll flicks aren't? If you bring up specific games i can argue about what makes them art and what makes them shit, but when it comes to the medium as a whole you'd get nowhere because art has a vague definition.

 

[GoldenDragon14]

Video games combine loads of arts: English (for the story), art (models, sprites and concept) , music , science (programming), and maths(programming), which are arts! surely a combination of arts doesn't make something that's not an art? if video games aren't art then nothing is.

 

[the rye]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

And in the end the arguments you've been seeing are valid. Art is a very poorly defined word, and very reasonable arguments can be made as to why or why not Call of Duty is art. The best anyone can do is point to games with a great design or thought provoking plot because art's definition seems to be open for interpretation.

Besides, you could still be making that argument relating to film. Why is "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" art while Uwe Boll flicks aren't? If you bring up specific games i can argue about what makes them art and what makes them shit, but when it comes to the medium as a whole you'd get nowhere because art has a vague definition.

What does thought provoking mean, what thoughts are these? Anyway video games as a whole aren't art, just like film is not art, just specific films are art.

What I'm frustrated with is every argument about video games being art never actually moving to specific examples and discussions. No one actually seems to be able to analyze a single video game and write a compelling and convincing essay on what themes it has. No instead everyone just keeps talking about "definitions of art".

 

[Chewster]

I quote you and I agree. In fact that's what I said after you, making my post rather pointless.

Art - I haven't played a game that I would consider art, though I think there are quite a few that approach it.

What is art? I don't have a definition.

I have a few I usually pull out. Deus Ex, Silent Hill 2, The Sands of Time and some others I can't think of at the moment.

If we accept the definition of art to be simply a matter of emotion response then a simple horror film could be considered art, this also carries the notion that anything the creator is trying to say is ignored. An emotional response is not enough for art, it has to convey something meaningful.

The fact of the matter is people analyze art, people write books and articles on films, literature, paintings discussing and elaborating on what ideas the particular thing conveys.

But then what is visual art, if not a pure emotional response to some stimuli? Some visual art is complex and tries to convey a story or a higher point and others, simply a feeling or basic concept and both are showcased in galleries alongside one another. And emotion is hella meaningful, especially to beings such as us, where pure emotion drives most of what we do in life. Why can't an emotion be the point? I'd also argue that what the author intends doesn't matter anyway, since we still have to create meaning ourselves, and we are long past any sort of notion of universal understanding anyhow.

Regardless, people do write about video games outside of the usual industry-fueled journalism. Extensively. Game Studies is one of the fastest emerging sub-disciplines in academia today. It will probably take decades before it is centralized enough and enough content is generated for it to become its own thing, but that is true of most new media.

And some horror films are art. Asian cinema has tons of really great stuff, for example.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

And in the end the arguments you've been seeing are valid. Art is a very poorly defined word, and very reasonable arguments can be made as to why or why not Call of Duty is art. The best anyone can do is point to games with a great design or thought provoking plot because art's definition seems to be open for interpretation.

Besides, you could still be making that argument relating to film. Why is "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" art while Uwe Boll flicks aren't? If you bring up specific games i can argue about what makes them art and what makes them shit, but when it comes to the medium as a whole you'd get nowhere because art has a vague definition.

What does thought provoking mean, what thoughts are these? Anyway video games as a whole aren't art, just like film is not art, just specific films are art.

What I'm frustrated with is every argument about video games being art never actually moving to specific examples and discussions. No one actually seems to be able to analyze a single video game and write a compelling and convincing essay on what themes it has. No instead everyone just keeps talking about "definitions of art".

Well if you want specific examples, maybe i can try to give you some help.


BioShock is art. Why? The atmosphere is extremely well done, the storytelling blends well with gameplay and it serves as perhaps the single best example of in medias res story telling. It has it's gripes, but we're talking art, not perfection.

Shadow of the Colossus is art. Why? The monsters are really well designed and the gameplay and music are great. The story is basic without insulting our intelligence, and you get to leap off a speeding horse onto a giant flying snake.

Killer 7 is art. Why? I have no idea. It's closer to an example of "Modern art" which tends to mean something so fucked up it is hard to sum up in ten words or less.


Really if you want a more personalized example, you're going to have to give me an example of what you feel is art, or what you want to see in a game to make you believe it is artistic. Since this varies from person to person, you need to be specific in your challenge, this topic was a little on the vague side.

 

[the rye]

First of all, you have to define what art is. If you cannot do that, then there is no point in going forward. And just about anything can be defined as art, provided you cast a wide enough net.

I view games as being art because they have the power to tell interesting stories in engaging, emotionally provocative ways. All good film , music and literature does the same. As does visual art, to a degree. Video games are just more interactive.

Really, what more is there to say?

If we accept the definition of art to be simply a matter of emotion response then a simple horror film could be considered art, this also carries the notion that anything the creator is trying to say is ignored. An emotional response is not enough for art, it has to convey something meaningful.

The fact of the matter is people analyze art, people write books and articles on films, literature, paintings discussing and elaborating on what ideas the particular thing conveys.

Why does it have to be meaningful? Who are you to say what is meaningful and what is not?

All I have to say to counter your argument is to say that any creative endeavor made by another human being that illicits an emotional response in me or sheit other people IS MEANINGFUL.

[/sarcasm] Can we debate the definition of meaningful now? [/end sarcasm]

I really want to avoid a philosophical debate about aesthetics. All I'm interested in is a specific example a of video game someone considers art and why they believe it is art.

However i will also point out that Mein kampf is a product of creative endeavor and could indeed provokes an emotional response, there by making it (by your definition)art. This is the problem with defining art simply by an emotional feeling.

 

[loc978]

Ooh, easy one for me.
By technical definition, if someone made a pile of dirt, stuck a silly sign in it [http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3372/3588624199_185a6d9d8b.jpg], and claimed it was art... they would be correct. It was made by human effort for the purpose of being art, therefore it is art. So any video game that is claimed as art by any person involved in making it is technically art.
I'd bet the person who drew this [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f8/Etvideogamecover.jpg/250px-Etvideogamecover.jpg] would claim ET for the Atari 2600 as art... if that is so, it is art.

 

[the rye]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

And in the end the arguments you've been seeing are valid. Art is a very poorly defined word, and very reasonable arguments can be made as to why or why not Call of Duty is art. The best anyone can do is point to games with a great design or thought provoking plot because art's definition seems to be open for interpretation.

Besides, you could still be making that argument relating to film. Why is "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" art while Uwe Boll flicks aren't? If you bring up specific games i can argue about what makes them art and what makes them shit, but when it comes to the medium as a whole you'd get nowhere because art has a vague definition.

What does thought provoking mean, what thoughts are these? Anyway video games as a whole aren't art, just like film is not art, just specific films are art.

What I'm frustrated with is every argument about video games being art never actually moving to specific examples and discussions. No one actually seems to be able to analyze a single video game and write a compelling and convincing essay on what themes it has. No instead everyone just keeps talking about "definitions of art".

Well if you want specific examples, maybe i can try to give you some help.


BioShock is art. Why? The atmosphere is extremely well done, the storytelling blends well with gameplay and it serves as perhaps the single best example of in medias res story telling. It has it's gripes, but we're talking art, not perfection.

Shadow of the Colossus is art. Why? The monsters are really well designed and the gameplay and music are great. The story is basic without insulting our intelligence, and you get to leap off a speeding horse onto a giant flying snake.

Killer 7 is art. Why? I have no idea. It's closer to an example of "Modern art" which tends to mean something so fucked up it is hard to sum up in ten words or less.


Really if you want a more personalized example, you're going to have to give me an example of what you feel is art, or what you want to see in a game to make you believe it is artistic. Since this varies from person to person, you need to be specific in your challenge, this topic was a little on the vague side.

Ok good i want people to talk about specific games they think are art. So with Bioshock naturally we would have to address the role objectivist philosophy, not only that but doesn't Bioshock also have something to say about utopias and ideology as a whole. (also yes, bioshock is a brilliant example of Medias Res)

What I'm basically trying to say is that video games like Bioskock, like Shadow of the Colossus have to examined in depth, have to be explained why they are art, and why people like Roger Ebert should see them as art.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I'll save you time. Someone is going to ask you to define art, someone is going to troll you, and someone is going to reference Team Ico's work. Quit fucking asking please, this topic has been made twenty billion times. Just use the search function and i'm sure you'll eventually get your answer. Alternatively, go to Google and find where the Extra Credits team has gone, i'm sure they've tackled the question at one point.

So far all I've seen is people ask if video games are art but they have never actually discussed themes in video games they have never written essays on a particular game and elaborated on it's ideas, themes, purpose. For the most part all I've seen is people claim video games are art because it made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside (or make them have an emotion response).

And in the end the arguments you've been seeing are valid. Art is a very poorly defined word, and very reasonable arguments can be made as to why or why not Call of Duty is art. The best anyone can do is point to games with a great design or thought provoking plot because art's definition seems to be open for interpretation.

Besides, you could still be making that argument relating to film. Why is "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest" art while Uwe Boll flicks aren't? If you bring up specific games i can argue about what makes them art and what makes them shit, but when it comes to the medium as a whole you'd get nowhere because art has a vague definition.

What does thought provoking mean, what thoughts are these? Anyway video games as a whole aren't art, just like film is not art, just specific films are art.

What I'm frustrated with is every argument about video games being art never actually moving to specific examples and discussions. No one actually seems to be able to analyze a single video game and write a compelling and convincing essay on what themes it has. No instead everyone just keeps talking about "definitions of art".

Well if you want specific examples, maybe i can try to give you some help.


BioShock is art. Why? The atmosphere is extremely well done, the storytelling blends well with gameplay and it serves as perhaps the single best example of in medias res story telling. It has it's gripes, but we're talking art, not perfection.

Shadow of the Colossus is art. Why? The monsters are really well designed and the gameplay and music are great. The story is basic without insulting our intelligence, and you get to leap off a speeding horse onto a giant flying snake.

Killer 7 is art. Why? I have no idea. It's closer to an example of "Modern art" which tends to mean something so fucked up it is hard to sum up in ten words or less.


Really if you want a more personalized example, you're going to have to give me an example of what you feel is art, or what you want to see in a game to make you believe it is artistic. Since this varies from person to person, you need to be specific in your challenge, this topic was a little on the vague side.

Ok good i want people to talk about specific games they think are art. So with Bioshock naturally we would have to address the role objectivist philosophy, not only that but doesn't Bioshock also have something to say about utopias and ideology as a whole. (also yes, bioshock is a brilliant example of Medias Res)

What I'm basically trying to say is that video games like Bioskock, like Shadow of the Colossus have to examined in depth, have to be explained why they are art, and why people like Roger Ebert should see them as art.

I don't know if anyone was really debating that, but i can understand where your concern is coming from. Games can be art and it's not as hard to find advocates of this stance who are capable of forming coherent sentances as you might think, i just recommend you search for them by arguing specifics and never ever start the hunt at YouTube.

That may seem like a non-sequitor, but just trust me. Nothing drains your will to live or work like an overwhelming concentration of trolls.

 

[Thespian]

I'm trying to get people to elaborate on the idea that video games are art, so far I've seen very few people explain how video games are art beyond the fact that it made them feel some sort of emotion response.

Why is that not good enough? If you can make your way through something and end up emotionally moved by it, isn't it pretty much art?