Videogames as Art

[RTR]

Very nice. I wonder what Yahtzee thinks about guys like Bob Chipman (Moviebob) who makes the Game Overthinker blog, where he gives his two cents regarding many things gaming. Given how he's no exactly influential beyond his followers here on the Escapist, Screwattack and his blogs yet I feel he has some very intelligent things to say. Wonder what he thinks about him...

 

[Drmonstereater]

Thank you! I hate it when people say "Well that's not art, THIS is art." Ultimately its all opinionated, we can try all we want but there will never be an objective definition: critics in the 1800s thought the post-impressionists were idiot, now all art-critics seem to be able to do is gush over their brilliance and pinnacle role in art history. But I do have a question for you, though I doubt you'll ever get around to answering (or already have answered it and I just haven't read it yet). People can write, books, make movies, or do paintings that sympathize, however do no endorse, a serial killer's emotions. What about someone making a game about that? I mean, with the player sitting as the central killer committing all these atrocities it would certainly add a new level of psychological exploration, but would you consider this almost oxymoronic because games are supposed to be entertaining, and watching a person turn into a monster is supposed to be tragic?

 

[Stickfigure]

I'm not brought to tears of fitful rage by Ebert's comments, but his objections all boil down to him simply not understanding the medium he's critiquing. The real problem is he's attempting to rationalize his dislike, and that turns it from "I just don't like 'em" to "Games will never be anything more than a distraction and here's why." Or, to put it more plainly, he's framing opinion as empirical truth, and that's what upsets a lot of people.

Had he simply emphasized that to HIM games would never be art, that would've been fine. Crotchety old man cannot immerse himself in a concept that was in it's infancy or even nonexistant most of his life. But he attempts to justify his position, and thus opens himself up for debate. On the field of debate, he brings three small games, one of which I'd never even heard of, and offers them up as the ambassadors of their medium. I could just as easily say that cinema has not become an art form because of Glitter, All About Steve, and Boat Trip.

There are concepts that simply can't properly exist outside of video games, as video game-based movies are so quick to remind us. Games like Silent Hill 2 and Ico need the medium they exist in if they are to become fully realized as art, just as a movie could not convey the Mona Lisa and a comic could not adequately convey The Nutcracker(though I'm sure a comic by that name probably exists).

Now, do games like Silent Hill 2 and Ico represent the pinnacle of gaming artistry? Doubtful. They are some of the best things we have now, and I would consider them equivalent to many great literary and cinematic works, as they do what many of those fail to: elicit emotions from their audience. Silent Hill 2 is genuinely frightening and atmospheric, and Ico manages to juxtapose the grandiosity of a large, complex castle full of shadowy opponents and a struggle for survival with the sweetness of a young love story of sorts. But they stand at the beginning of a very long journey, and much will change between now and fifty years down the road. Maybe they'll be considered the equivalent of The Epic of Gilgamesh one day, but recognition of truly great artists is normally rewarded retroactively. King Kong was the cat's ass back when it was made, sure, but it wasn't until much later that it was recognized for how monumental it was. Same with Citizen Kane, or Ulysses, or Starry Night. No matter the art form, it is generally appreciated in it's time, but it is only with time that we can decide whether or not something truly stands out as great.

Ultimately, Ebert doesn't appreciate video games for the same reason I don't appreciate Broadway musicals: they don't speak to either of us, and we find ourselves unimmersed in them. But then, I also don't go around telling ballet enthusiasts what they enjoy is definitively "not art."

Still, as an opinion, and not a declaration, what Ebert says is not without merit. It should just be seen as what it is: a movie critic who doesn't see games as art. Or, alternat title: "Grumpy old man is old and grumpy"

 

[Sir Prize]

Well, I have seen some games that would be more closely realated to art rather than games, but I think those go under interactive media. Art is a funny thing because no two people will see it the same way, because by Yahtzee's explaination, yes I have seen a game that is very close to, if not straight up art. I would see The Path as being close to art, though its creators would not.

 

[senorcromas]

Oh, great. Now when I tell my friends how I feel about this whole Ebert thing, they're gonna say I'm just parroting Yahtzee.

Thanks a ton.

 

[CatmanStu]

I would say that the time of people such as Mr Ebert, has almost come to an end. With the rise of the internet, has come the increase in people needing to voice their opinions about... well, everything pretty much.

Gone are the days when the only opinion you had to judge a purchase on was a short summing up on tv or an article in a magazine, now everyone will tell you how crap/great something is and then proceed to argue for days with others who disagree; in the end people will get so fed up with the contrasting opinions that it will become white noise that they ignore.

Mr Ebert has a reputation and that is the only reason anybody gives a damn about this; sooner or later people like him will disappear and all that will be left will be a world full of amateur 'critics' and discussion will die to be replaced with conjecture.

 

[Omnific One]

I was prepared for the worse - an article attacking Ebert's opinion. While I think he is wrong, Yatzee actually did an excellent job disputing his stance without seeming aggressive or narrow-minded. Thanks for the great article.

Though I have to say:

This isn't even the best example, but how is this not art?

 

[De Ronneman]

Yahtzee's right. For one of the rare moments in which he is completely serious, he's also completely right.

If I say Picasso was nothing more than a retard with a paint brush, that'd be insulting art. Will anyone care about what I just said? No, because we all know that whether you like it or not, Picasso's work is art.

That Ebert didn't get the cream of the crop with Braid, well, that's his own fault, but to call him out on sounds stupid, doesn't it?

I stated the same thing in the topic here as Yahtzee did: games are an interactive medium, where you make or break the story, and in good games like Bioshock, influence it. That makes it an interactive movie that causes you to get sucked in, because it's YOU who's doing all those things on screen, in stead of Jean Claude van Damme or, brr, Shia LeBoeuf.

On a more serious not, if you were going to impregnate a dishwasher, where would you, aah, nevermind...

 

[Sev07]

this was a great response, Yahtzee knows how to put head words onto computer text very good....

 

[ShadowsofHope]

Quite a valid article, indeed. Really, why do we care what a movie reviewer thinks of video game culture? It's like listening to a devout Sci-Fi Movie lover calling Romance films a waste of time. Why the fuck bother?

 

[Insomniaku]

fantastic article

 

[Klishu]

I think the Myst series is one of the games that comes extremely close to being an extremely good instance of art.

 

[flamezlord]

It does seem strange to me that a man as respected as Ebert would merely watch clips of video games and declare them not art. It's like if I watched people play a board game and declare it not fun without ever trying to play it. If he had played a game like bioshock and gotten to the end, he would have realized that video games, unlike movies, are capable of making the player feel guilt. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion... but it would be best if they actually did their research before publishing it on the internet.

 

[Omnific One]

It does seem strange to me that a man as respected as Ebert would merely watch clips of video games and declare them not art. It's like if I watched people play a board game and declare it not fun without ever trying to play it. If he had played a game like bioshock and gotten to the end, he would have realized that video games, unlike movies, are capable of making the player feel guilt. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion... but it would be best if they actually did their research before publishing it on the internet.

Good point, Bioshock and a number of other games (mainly RPGs) give you feeling that you normally can't experience (like guilt, as you said) in a media form. Sure, most action movies and FPS's are trilling, but do they make you feel guilty like when you have to make the choice on Virmire from Mass Effect? No.

Of course, if you don't like the person you are leaving, it's a whole different thing.

 

[duchaked]

I'm okay with someone having their own opinions, and I understand that I most likely can't (and won't try to) change their minds by my own strength. I won't try to push my views on them, and that's fine with me. It's just when they then push their smugness on me...well then that's a different story (then I'm likely to press their face into the pavement).

Personally, I feel sorry for Ebert on this.

Not because of his viewpoint or anything else, just that he hasn't seen the depth of emotion that people here have seen; and never will.

But as Cracked said, the reason people are getting upset about it proves that it's art to some.

When something is defended this vigorously, you know it's raised a lot of powerful opinions in people - and that's the core of art.

haha reminds me of when people try to convince me that cheerleading or marching band is a sport

then I'm like fine fine I'll stop voicing my opposing views if they'll just stop trying to convince me otherwise lol

 

[KickTown]

Yahtzee is right on in his own right. It's good to hear he's not an overzealous *****-monger (i prefer that term to evangelist) like so many :-D.

The *****-monger in me would assert that Video Games have, in fact, achieved high forms of thought and emotion provoking art, and that I'm entitled to that opinion as I hold it self evident through years of playing some fine video games.

I love Ebert and I read his reviews before I see every movie, but there's a clear generation gap that moves him away from understanding the beauty of modern blistering sarcasm... So I take his opinion with a grain of salt and wish he could have the vitality and freedom to enjoy video games today as they evolve (with so very much error, but evolve nonetheless), into a new breed of art.


I digress, puppies are cute.

 

[Mr.Lucifer]

It would be petty if yahtzee insulted ebert over his opinion. But if video games are an art, then there is very few games that are art.

Lets be honest, the reason why we get upset when ebert said games weren't art, to us that meant it wasn't a high quality medium.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Did Yahtzee really use the term "butthurt?"
Was that to replace a word so offensive you can print it here or did he suddenly turn 5 years old.

The argument has merit though? "What does Ebert know about games anyway? Especially if he's never actually played them."
It's not news and nobody should care. Does anybody care?

So let me get this right Yahtzee:
Videogames will not be considered art until we wax up some really pretentious term for them? Like Americans who call movies "the cinema."

Allright, but as the current most witty game critic now, you're the one who's going to have to come up with the term. It should be something that we gamers can giggle at and people like Ebert can feel cultured saying.

Something like: "Blow Discs" "Joysticking" but pretentious types like French sounding words.
I don't know; it should be up to you.

 

[TarkXT]

Huh, well I was surprised by this.

I probably shouldn't mention I was ready to go off on a rant when I read the quote.

By the sounds of it it seems Mr. Ebert should actually play said games before forming such a public opinion It's kind of like me saying that nascar racing is easy just by watching a race without ever getting behind the wheel. The perspective changes depending on where you stand.

 

[Shokara]

*applauds*
Very well said.