Villains who had a point

[Paragon Fury]

Johnathan Irons from Advanced Warfare.



Particularly in that A: Humans aren't really into freedom as we think we are and have historically willingly abandoned it if there looks to be a better alternative and B: Might makes right has more to do with was is seen as right and wrong than we care to admit.

 

[Dalisclock]

Zombies and other monstrosities weren't Umbrella's main goal originally. They were just bi-products of whatever virus they were making. The original goal for 2/3 founders of Umbrella was immortality; Spencer and Ashford. The third guy, whose name I can't remember, just wanted to do what a pharmaceutical company is supposed to do. The other founders killed him, because they knew he would not go along with the plan.

I know but it's really, really hard not to make that joke. Eapecially considering how much ends up getting destroyed because of whatever Mutants/Zombies they create, one can only ask "Exactly how is Umbrella making a profit here?"

Damn straight! Griffith never had a point. Even before going full evil, the fucker was always a huge control freak.

Yeah. The whole part were he loses his shit over Guts walking away kinda encapsulates it nicely.

 

[spacemutant IV]

So I watched a supercut of the '97 Berserk show on youtube, and I don't think Griffith is a villain, necessarily. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether he personally has a point or not, because I just see the whole thing as a tragedy. I look at the story as a whole, not the characters individually, so it depends on how other people view it. Griffith had extraordinary ambition, but morally speaking, he never acted out of the ordinary (until the eclipse). Guts left partly because he thought that he had to earn Griffiths friendship that way, ignorant of how much it would hurt him. Griffith was prompted to adrenaline rush through his plan, or seek distraction with the princess, probably both. He went in harder for his dream because the last thing balancing it out, was Guts, and Guts left partly because of what he overheard Griffith saying. I can see the humanity in that whole situation. Horrible things happened to Griffith, and anything he does afterwards, I cannot blame on a 100% sane mind. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't suck, and that Guts doesn't have a right to hate him. Again, I do not look at the characters and their justifications outside of the story as a whole.

I have read up on the events following the eclipse, and it seems to me that the story loses its focus a bit. Not sure if my interpretation is applicable to the later storylines. Casca's (however you spell that name) fate of being caught and destroyed in the middle, and then being left behind by a Guts who could not get past the thought of revenge, is still a very fitting and nice touch though.

Anyone interested in the supercut, I recommend the 2 part "no cheese edit", it's with english dub. I plan on downloading it once the final versions are released. There is also an unedited four part supercut in japanese with english subtitles though.

 

[Dalisclock]

Johnathan Irons from Advanced Warfare.



Particularly in that A: Humans aren't really into freedom as we think we are and have historically willingly abandoned it if there looks to be a better alternative and B: Might makes right has more to do with was is seen as right and wrong than we care to admit.

Glad I'm not the only one who appreciated this. I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who liked the AW campaign, partially due to this. A villain who has a point and some kind of motive.

 

[maninahat]

The "bad guy" in 2012, who is portrayed as this slimy, fat, smug bastard. He and the other world leaders have built these giant arks to preserve humanity's survivors from a world ending tsunami. The "hero" complains that the survivors are rich people who have bought their tickets on the arcs. Bad guy asks who else is going to cough up the billions needed to build them. Hero complains that they could fit ten times more people in the arcs. Bad Guy asks how to store enough food for all of them. Hero complains about who gets a ticket on board, bad guy asks if hero would like to donate his ticket to someone else. Bad guy shuts the doors to the arc early, dooming some of the stragglers to an incoming tidal wave; the guy's responsible for the survival of the entire human race so he has a duty to do that. Also worth mentioning that everything the bad guy does is based on estimates and schedules written up by the hero, and every one of them turn out to be wrong.

God what a shitty movie.

 

[Ogoid]

So I watched a supercut of the '97 Berserk show on youtube, and I don't think Griffith is a villain, necessarily. It doesn't even have anything to do with whether he personally has a point or not, because I just see the whole thing as a tragedy. I look at the story as a whole, not the characters individually, so it depends on how other people view it. Griffith had extraordinary ambition, but morally speaking, he never acted out of the ordinary (until the eclipse). Guts left partly because he thought that he had to earn Griffiths friendship that way, ignorant of how much it would hurt him. Griffith was prompted to adrenaline rush through his plan, or seek distraction with the princess, probably both. He went in harder for his dream because the last thing balancing it out, was Guts, and Guts left partly because of what he overheard Griffith saying. I can see the humanity in that whole situation. Horrible things happened to Griffith, and anything he does afterwards, I cannot blame on a 100% sane mind. Which doesn't mean that it doesn't suck, and that Guts doesn't have a right to hate him. Again, I do not look at the characters and their justifications outside of the story as a whole.

I have read up on the events following the eclipse, and it seems to me that the story loses its focus a bit. Not sure if my interpretation is applicable to the later storylines. Casca's (however you spell that name) fate of being caught and destroyed in the middle, and then being left behind by a Guts who could not get past the thought of revenge, is still a very fitting and nice touch though.

Anyone interested in the supercut, I recommend the 2 part "no cheese edit", it's with english dub. I plan on downloading it once the final versions are released. There is also an unedited four part supercut in japanese with english subtitles though.

Mostly agreed.

What I thought really drove home the tragedy on Golden Age arc was that the circumstances that lead to Guts and Griffith's parting of ways were not just utterly trivial, human, and most of all, completely avoidable, but also ultimately pointless, the former going out to try and be worthy of a friendship he already had, and the latter assuring his downfall by buying into his own high-and-mighty bullshit. The series as a whole has its ups and downs, but the Golden Age is truly a storytelling masterpiece in my opinion.

I still think Griffith is a dick, though.

 

[Dalisclock]

Having just finished it(I know, 15 years late to the party), Dead Cell and their Russian Allies from Metal Gear Solid 2.

I'm not going to mince words. Solidus is a dick and a monster, Fatman is a glory seeking bomb nut, Fortune is kinda axe-crazy and Vamp....god knows what's going on with Vamp. Only Olga comes across as looking somewhat good in the end.

However, their goal of removing Arsenal from the Patriots control, knowing what they were planning on doing with it, was laudable considering the shitty, dominating control of all digital information the Patriots were going for. Their goal of detonating an EMP over New York, not so much(I'm assuming that was the plan at some point, though admittedly I kinda lost track of who was doing what and betraying whom for whom a couple times in the last hour) and the sheer amount of collateral damage implied makes it hard to feel too bad for them in the end.

 

[Dalisclock]

Cyrus Temple in Saints Row the Third. Simply put, he's put in charge of an anti-gang military force that has super high tech weapons, their own air force and an aircraft carrier, and with the unanimous consent of Congress(Seriously, when does congress agree on anything) is sent to take down a gang(The Saints) that has effectivly conquered an entire city at that point, evaded prosecution, (possibly) blown up a high rise in the middle of a downtown area, stolen a ton of weapons and a very large bomb from a military armory and has access to their own personal air force. They're also shown as being capable of going toe-to-toe with the military AND WINNING, such as being able to blow up STAG's aircraft carrier.

Cyrus has good reason for going as hard as he does, with the exception of the "bad" ending where he uses a flying SHIELD-like Helicarrier to start indescrimantly blowing up the city. Yeah, the Saints are accused of blowing up the equivalent of the Statue of Liberty, but I don't see how blowing up the rest of the city actually solves anything.

Most players don't see it because, well, the Saints are the Protagonists and "Puckish Rogues" but STAG isn't being super unreasonable in their tactics.

 

[retsupurae yahtsee]

Doctor Robotnik: He wants to turn everything into an awesome robot, build a theme park across the world and a bunch of stupid animals oppose him. They could work with him to make the robots work as well as possible.

Edea in Final Fantasy 8: She can unite everyone peacefully to support a single cause, cast spells that heal wounds and resurrect the dead, creates fun festivals and her enemies are violent, stupid mercenaries.

Satan and the fallen angels: God is responsible for all the horrors of the world, punishes everyone for violating his rules and is a huge hypocrite. These guys would be the heroes in any other fictional story.

Brutus, Casca and Caesar's 14 other killers: Caesar destroyed the functional Roman Democracy and installed his own dictatorship. He helped destroy the empire.

Prince John: Richard III bankrupted England in order to fund pointless wars and religious fanaticism. John needed to raise taxes sky-high or the kingdom would not survive and anarchy and poverty would run rampant.

Genghis Khan: He did many terrible things, he was a scourge on the entire world--but he also improved social standards and living conditions and united the tribes.

King Saul: David was a dangerously insane, amoral murderer and Solomon bankrupted Israel and forced it to cede control to religious fanatics after his death. Everything would have been much better if they never took power.

 

[Silvanus]

Edea in Final Fantasy 8: She can unite everyone peacefully to support a single cause, cast spells that heal wounds and resurrect the dead, creates fun festivals and her enemies are violent, stupid mercenaries.

Might be skipping over a bit there. Firstly, there was very little peaceful about the Galbadia campaign; they invaded the neighbouring powers. Secondly, remember that Ultimecia (who possessed Edea) wished to conquer the universe, and was happy to destroy time periods to do so.

Nothing peaceful, entirely destructive and selfish.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

Hell, by Greek mythology Hades was actually the more pragmatic and level headed of his brothers. And also the most fair minded.

Myeah, as someone who knows his Greek myths, it's weird how modern depictions consistently show him as a cruel brute or evil schemer, when he was anything but (at least by the standards of the time). Morbid and brooding, sure, but actually did his job in earnest and wasn't likely to arbitrarily screw over any mortals he dealt with, unlike his younger brothers Poseidon (capricious tyrant) and Zeus (philandering massive, MASSIVE asshole). And yeah, Hades is actually the eldest. Disney got that wrong too.

 

[Silvanus]

Myeah, as someone who knows his Greek myths, it's weird how modern depictions consistently show him as a cruel brute or evil schemer, when he was anything but (at least by the standards of the time). Morbid and brooding, sure, but actually did his job in earnest and wasn't likely to arbitrarily screw over any mortals he dealt with, unlike his younger brothers Poseidon (capricious tyrant) and Zeus (philandering massive, MASSIVE asshole). And yeah, Hades is actually the eldest. Disney got that wrong too.

The most fair-minded of the brothers, perhaps, but far from a role model. He still acted quite monstrously towards Persephone, Orpheus, and even Aesclepius.

This isn't even getting into the cruel and unusual punishment angle.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

Splinter Cell: Blacklist...though the main plot thread was generally typical for the series, the main antagonist did have an interesting motivation, where he demanded the US withdraw all their forces posted in foreign countries and to stop involving themselves in these situations.
Not the most humane method of political lobbying, but hey...it got their attention at least. [small]Also he's a somewhat British veteran, which maybe stokes the believability of his anti-US-military position, but shhhh![/small]

 

[Kyrian007]

Myeah, as someone who knows his Greek myths, it's weird how modern depictions consistently show him as a cruel brute or evil schemer, when he was anything but (at least by the standards of the time). Morbid and brooding, sure, but actually did his job in earnest and wasn't likely to arbitrarily screw over any mortals he dealt with, unlike his younger brothers Poseidon (capricious tyrant) and Zeus (philandering massive, MASSIVE asshole). And yeah, Hades is actually the eldest. Disney got that wrong too.

The most fair-minded of the brothers, perhaps, but far from a role model. He still acted quite monstrously towards Persephone, Orpheus, and even Aesclepius.

This isn't even getting into the cruel and unusual punishment angle.

He told Orpheus not to look back... that trial was fair enough all things considered. And Aesclepius, he basically told his brother that a half-god necromancer was making humans immortal. While I don't particularly agree with Prometheus' torment (although fire did increase our capacity for war and death) Aesclepius was trying to eliminate death. Zeus and Hades were right enough on that one, death is an important natural process.

I won't defend his treatment of Persephone, kidnapping and marrying his niece... yuck. Starving her to cement being able to keep her in the underworld... who CAN resist a pomegranate, they're delicious.

As far as a villain who has a point. Maybe Satan. From a certain point of view he's attempting to free humanity from the oppression of a omnipresent omnipotent dictator. His actions and treatment is a little like Prometheus' situation (although that's hardly surprising considering how readily Christians appropriate other religions to bolster their numbers.) And Prometheus was eventually rescued by man for the gift of fire... perhaps one day man will return the favor to Satan for that apple.

 

[Hawki]

[

Glad I'm not the only one who appreciated this. I sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people who liked the AW campaign, partially due to this. A villain who has a point and some kind of motive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvN51r1o1Nc&t=6458s

You're welcome.