"Virgin shaming": I know we have a lot of "but what about men's problems?" people out there.

[isometry]

It has nothing to do with "validation from other people", it has to do with deep instinctual motivation that comes from evolution.

Oh great, most "humans have sexist instincts" crap. At this rate, this is going to devolve into an evolutionary psychology/"scientific" sexism thread.

Not to mention psychology hardly counts as a "science" and psychology today can hardly claim anything about human instinct. You just cited psychology today to prove your claim about sexist instincts. Not something about neurology. This sort of thing is as scientifically bunk as Charles Murray's The Bell Curve.

Stop being so adversarial and glib. It ruins any chance for a good discussion. You aren't thinking about what I'm saying, you just see me as some kind of enemy. I am not an enemy who thinks sluts and virgins are terrible. I am just trying to give an analysis for why society sends us those messages through entertainment and media. I want to understand where the idea that sluts and virgins are bad comes from.

Guess what? I hate psychology too, I think it's bunk science as well. The only reason I used that link is because I'm trying to explain how society thinks about courtship.

 

[Vault101]

Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

thats not a "bachelors" lifstyle, thats a guy living on his own who doesnt know how to clean up afterhimself lifestyle

[quote/] In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential. [/quote]

what if some people dont want to be in a relationship..or bother with relationships. What if they arnt bothering with that BUT are prusing some other goal?

like...say...getting through their degree rather than partying/fucking the time away


[quote/] Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.[/quote]

so unless we are in a constant state of courship....we are failures?

 

[isometry]

Remembering "sex sells", media and entertainment have no reason to talk about the large portion of the male population that gives up on sex in favor of the perpetual bachelor's lifestyle: dirty apartment, bad hygiene, video game marathons, etc.

thats not a "bachelors" lifstyle, thats a guy living on his own who doesnt know how to clean up afterhimself lifestyle

I agree with you, "bachelor" was not a specific enough term. I mean more than just a messy apartment though, I mean young men who have let themselves go in various unhealthy ways, physically and mentally.

[quote/] In fact man-boys are nothing new, they have always existed, and the purpose of all this peer pressure to try and make them have sex is society's way of saying "you don't meet the minimum standards of a human being, clean yourself up." It's not really about the sex, it's about withholding sex to force them to grow up and take better care of their body and mind, and realize more of their unexplored potential.

what if some people dont want to be in a relationship..or bother with relationships. What if they arnt bothering with that BUT are prusing some other goal?

like...say...getting through their degree rather than partying/fucking the time away
[/quote]

That's exactly what I did for a lot of college and graduate school. Incidentally, I was never once pressured by my guy friends over women, if anything peer pressure related to alcohol was a lot more common.

[quote/] Courtship brings out good qualities in people. Obviously for men who have to turn on the charm to try and get laid, but also for women whose traditional job is to delay the lay without causing the gentleman to lose interest, which requires that she turn on the charm as well. The commonality between "pathetic virgins" and "shameful sluts" is that both groups have given up on courtship, which leaves their charms to atrophy.

so unless we are in a constant state of courship....we are failures?[/quote]

That's not what I meant. There are plenty of ways to get motivated, and courtship just happens to be one of the most powerful. My goal is to understand why society tells us that virgins and sluts are bad, and I think viewing courtship as a major motivation for self-improvement goes a ways towards explaining that. Life is full of great experiences, just because someone misses one of them doesn't make them a failure.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

so relationships are a motivation to make ourself actually desirable (looks, career and such)

ok I can kind of see that

 

[Aerosteam]

This is a good statement, but I not sure what the discussion value is, so I'll just mention that a friend of mine said he did something sexual with someone from his school. And he is younger than me. And I'm only 16 next week.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I think most of the "virgin shaming" you refer to ends around high school. I think when the average person sees that insult on the internet, the giver is usually a 12 year old who either hasn't actually had sex or somehow managed to have disgusting illegal underage sex. The thing is, guys really don't care what other guys do. *massive brick of life story incoming*

Spoiler

For example, I work in a warehouse completely consisting of men (who can be ridiculously sexist/misogynist). The age range is about 19 to 28. I recently lost my virginity and confided to a coworker (he's 19 and not a virgin, I'm 25) about it. He didn't even act surprised. Another coworker (also 19 and not a virgin) asked me about the same person and immediately inquired if it was the first time I "banged a chick." There was no shame or ridicule there, which is what I was expecting. Yet another coworker is a devout Christian (age 24) who is celibate by choice. He's closer with my coworkers than I am and there's no "virgin shaming" there from what I can tell. If a person is willing to share, a guy will listen, but for the most part, nobody is particularly concerned with each other's sex lives.

However, up to the point where I lost my virginity a few months ago, I was filled with shame about it. No one ever put me down for it, but the lack of a sex life filled me with anxiety. There would be constant internal questions like "am i going to die before I get to?" "why can't I talk to girls?" and "what is wrong with me?" It wasn't about about gaining the respect of my male peers. If I felt anything towards my peers, it's a slight hatred/annoyance, as well as a complete lack of respect towards them. I used to resent people who had sex come to them easily.

It was really about the fact that I had never gotten socially/emotionally/physically close to the individuals I really cared about and that I found to be beautiful and sexually attractive. I felt that I was unlikable, unattractive, and that I couldn't hold a person's attention. I actually had an opportunity to lose my virginity just to lose my virginity, but I actually waited a few months until I was sure I was in love with the person in question. (In some ways, I wish I had just had sex with someone I liked and not loved, so it didn't hurt this bad when she stopped talking to me.)

Back on topic. Guys who virgin shame are often guys that misuse words like "retarded" and "gay." They grow out of it, usually by about 16 or 17.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

That's exactly what I did for a lot of college and graduate school. Incidentally, I was never once pressured by my guy friends over women, if anything peer pressure related to alcohol was a lot more common.

This. I never hear anyone "pressured" into sex, but I hear alcohol peer pressure all the time. When I tell men I don't drink (and never have) they look at me like I have three heads. I've also heard "I'm gonna get you drunk" and "I want to see what you're like drunk." I feel like as soon as people know I don't drink, there's an immediate sense of distrust and I'm out of the group. (Not that I care. I'm not into men anyways.)

Guys are always scheduling drink dates with each other. It's... weird.

 

[Loop Stricken]

When I tell men I don't drink (and never have) they look at me like I have three heads.

I agreed with you completely in your previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.367382.14298146], but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

I agreed with you completely in your previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.367382.14298146], but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm not, but booze is pretty universal. I once had a conversation online with a woman from the Philippines and she had a similar reaction. My reasons are numerous, personal, and would warrant their own thread or blog entry.... but I'll put them all here.

Spoiler

I didn't have friends in high school / had younger friends in college who were nerds / by the time said people started drinking in earnest, they had transferred to another school. My 21st birthday was spent bitterly moving back home from college after not meeting people, not finding a career path, and being forced out by ridiculous course blocking rules that kept me from taking classes in my major. This helped instill a resentment towards alcohol culture.

That and my dad drinks a lot and it's always smelly, annoying, sad, and disgusting to watch. And I like being thin, and all the men in my family developed plump beer guts. Plus, I see no reason to risk getting arrested for that ever, when I can easily avoid being subject to DUI/drunkenness laws. I make bad enough decisions sober and I don't want to risk digging myself deeper into depression. It's expensive. It makes a person have to pee and sometimes vomit. And most importantly, it could potentially interfere with the Prime Directive - experiencing sex to its fullest.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I agree with the OP. I'd also say that slutshaming and virginshaming couldn't exist without the other (at least in our set up), but I'm not so sure.

Oh, and yeah, usual deliberate misinterpretations of anything to do with feminism, patriarchy isn't supposed to be some shadowy conspiracy of all men, women aren't all just trying to play victims, minority refers to power imbalance, not raw numbers etc.

 

[Loop Stricken]

I agreed with you completely in your previous post [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.367382.14298146], but man... you don't drink?!
You're clearly not from the UK then.

I'm not, but booze is pretty universal. I once had a conversation online with a woman from the Philippines and she had a similar reaction. My reasons are numerous, personal, and would warrant their own thread or blog entry.... but I'll put them all here.

Spoiler

I didn't have friends in high school / had younger friends in college who were nerds / by the time said people started drinking in earnest, they had transferred to another school. My 21st birthday was spent bitterly moving back home from college after not meeting people, not finding a career path, and being forced out by ridiculous course blocking rules that kept me from taking classes in my major. This helped instill a resentment towards alcohol culture.

That and my dad drinks a lot and it's always smelly, annoying, sad, and disgusting to watch. And I like being thin, and all the men in my family developed plump beer guts. Plus, I see no reason to risk getting arrested for that ever, when I can easily avoid being subject to DUI/drunkenness laws. I make bad enough decisions sober and I don't want to risk digging myself deeper into depression. It's expensive. It makes a person have to pee and sometimes vomit. And most importantly, it could potentially interfere with the Prime Directive - experiencing sex to its fullest.

I used to think like you. Then I took about eight pints of cider to the liver. It's not much NOW, since I've moved onto whiskey, but I was what, 22 and never drank before?

Ah, but it sure was fun though.

 

[geK0]

Oddly enough, the only virgin shaming I've ever had was after I had lost my virginity

but I didn't correct the person because it was my date's brother

that would have been awkward.......

 

[Loop Stricken]

Well, to be honest, if you (anyone) is a virgin, then you have yet to experience an important part of life.

No shit.
I haven't gone skydiving either, but people don't tend to make fun of you for that.

 

[Shocksplicer]

I'd point out that anyone who makes fun of people for the amount of sex they have or haven't had is a dickhead, but I'm scared of being the subject of a thread about "Dickhead Shaming", so nevermind.

These neverending threads seriously need to stop. Can't we all just accept the fact that Humans, as a race, are shit, and move on?

 

[Starik20X6]

It's the 'lock and key' situation: a 'lock' that can be opened by any 'key' is a shitty lock, but a 'key' that can open lots of 'locks' is a great key.

Before anyone yells at me, I'm not saying it's right, in fact it's pretty bad. Women should be able to be as forward about enjoying sex just as much as men are, and virgin males shouldn't be shamed for their lack of sex. But thousands of years of society and millions of years of evolution have led to this, it's not something that's going to change overnight.

 

[Darkmantle]

This is one of the most back handed opening posts I have ever read.

No seriously, you make out like you want to extend an olive branch to the "anti-feminists" and then you go ahead and passive aggressively talk shit about them, and men in general, throughout the whole post. I can't believe you would expect to get real discussion out of this topic when you clearly have nothing but contempt for you "audience".

I would've put you down as troll and moved on, but I have seen you around these forums enough before to believe this may have been sincere.

 

[zehydra]

I agree more or less with OP, with the exception of the whole feminist stuff. I'm gonna flat out disagree and say no, women are not a minority (at least not in the United States)

I should also point out that while virgin shaming does exist, the idea that men go out of their way to have sex to satisfy their peers is bizarre. Guys want sex, that's it. Therefore, guys are going to look up to guys that can fulfill that "dream" so to speak, and look down upon those who can't.