Wait, so video games aren't art?

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Blind Sight

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May 16, 2010
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Yeah she's just ignorant, I get that all the time from several older people I know, apparently a video game will never being as complicated or have in-depth themes like literature according to my uncle. Of course, he's never actually played any in-depth games, and he's also a Marxist who believes that technology is turning us into a 'cog in the machine' so you can see how biased and uneducated he is towards the subject.
 

jmarquiso

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Nov 21, 2009
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Thyunda said:
voorhees123 said:
They are not art. They are made to make money only - how they look has nothing to do with it.
Do I need to raise the cheap-ass indie games? Hell, isn't that the whole point of films and pictures anyway? You think a big film is made purely to convey a message? No. It's to make money. So that argument falls straight down.

I won't deny that the majority of games are made to appeal to the general audience through cheap gimmicks, but then, for every Call of Duty I'm sure there's a RocknRolla. Or a Monster Ark. So yeah, some games are art, and some films simply aren't.
Take BioShock...that story is better than half the films I've seen. And the lines were spectacular...especially the big ol' spoiler.
Movies, music, plays, portraits, etc. were all made to make money on a certain level.
 

Xanadu84

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Apr 9, 2008
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Verlander said:
Xanadu84 said:
Best article Ive read on the subject

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/08/on-authorship-i.html

If it doesn't convince her, it will completely go over her head, confusing her and makjing her look like a fool.
I was very sad to read that article, as I have great respect for Roger Ebert.

OP If you believe videogames are art, work out why you believe that. Do some research, and find legitimate sources that clarify and confirm your opinions, and put it to her in an intellectual way. Then you'll be taken seriously
Really? Because I read it, and thought it was pretty fair to Ebert. Of course, I read it from a textbook a while ago, and went and found an internet source to share it, maybe its not exactly what I first read, but I thought that it said that while Ebert was wrong, he does raise issues that game developers need to address. Most game enthusiasts just dismiss Ebert out of hand.
 

Cpu46

Gloria ex machina
Sep 21, 2009
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I say you find the most artful game you can and incorporate it into your papers, speeches, ect. Try and expose your teacher to this medium, possibly ask to play the Extra Credits episode on this topic in class.
 

OManoghue

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Dec 12, 2008
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She's just ignorant. Not necessarily in a bad way, but maybe she's too old or something to have actually learned anything about games.
 

Verlander

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Apr 22, 2010
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Xanadu84 said:
Verlander said:
Xanadu84 said:
Best article Ive read on the subject

http://clicknothing.typepad.com/click_nothing/2007/08/on-authorship-i.html

If it doesn't convince her, it will completely go over her head, confusing her and makjing her look like a fool.
I was very sad to read that article, as I have great respect for Roger Ebert.

OP If you believe videogames are art, work out why you believe that. Do some research, and find legitimate sources that clarify and confirm your opinions, and put it to her in an intellectual way. Then you'll be taken seriously
Really? Because I read it, and thought it was pretty fair to Ebert. Of course, I read it from a textbook a while ago, and went and found an internet source to share it, maybe its not exactly what I first read, but I thought that it said that while Ebert was wrong, he does raise issues that game developers need to address. Most game enthusiasts just dismiss Ebert out of hand.
I didn't explain my position well enough, sorry. I'm disappointed that Ebert came to that conclusion in the first place. I thought more of him than to make a silly comment like he had, when what he accused games of being, could be applied to his own genre of "art"
 

bruunwald

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Feb 26, 2010
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Middle School, eh? Well, welcome to the ages-old argument over what constitutes Art. This has been going on for centuries, and is likely to continue for some time to come.

See, art is subjective, which means everybody has a different idea not only of the merits of a particular work of art, but also a different idea as to what constitutes art in the first place. Particularly over the past century, with the rise of the advertising industry and mass popular culture, art classicists have struggled to create or destroy the defining line between what is actual art and what is strictly entertainment. (I personally find that a useless, provincial attitude, but there it is.)

I suggest you get used to this. I also suggest you seek better advice than any that will come from this forum, where tastes are likely to run toward the shallow end of the art pool, and arguments are likely to reflect that, as well. (No offense: that includes me.)

That said, maybe a good place to start is to go back to your teacher, and explain to her that some of the video games you've played contained amazing imagery, good plot structure, decent writing, high quality execution, and above all, and most importantly, made you think and made you feel something. At the very least, the minimum defining two qualities of art are that they are:

1. A creative endeavour
2. That provoked thought and an emotional response

There are many video games that meet at least that definition. And it's arguable that many films considered art met only that definition.
 

sheah1

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Jul 4, 2010
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My english teacher allowed me to do a speech on this for our speaking and listening grade, she was really, awesomely supportive and a different english teacher was equally supportive in a completely different instance, so bad luck man, sorry.
 

BlackWaltz3

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May 29, 2008
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Shazbah said:
Well I'd say she thinks she's right because of her lack of experience with the medium. Just like you can dismiss any film or book if you've never watched or read one. If it really bothers find a few good episodes of Extra Credits here on the escapist and show her, theyre brillant and really know how to argue for games
+1!
 

ComicsAreWeird

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Games are art. Period. They interact with the beholder, they can convey emotions to the player (art must connect to people)and there is artistic merit in level design, sound, character concepts.

Anyone who tells you games are not art is either:

a. Lying or
b. Ignorant.
 

The Stonker

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Feb 26, 2009
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What gives her the right to say "what is art"?
What gives her the power to judge over such matters?
What gives anyone the power to judge anyone what is art?
But of course there is art that has no point and conveys nothing.

She's narrow minded and must be spanked!
 

Lunar Templar

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Sep 20, 2009
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Keenanr1234 said:
Just today in middle school English, we got a writing prompt about means of communication (art, music, literature) affecting peoples lives. After my teacher started to take questions I asked if video games were a form of art, and what do I get? She almost burst out laughing then said "Of course video games aren't art, thats solely a worthless technology!" I later asked if movies were considered art and she said they were. Now how aren't they art, compared to movies of course. They both have actors, plot twists, romances in some of them. That seems pretty art like to me. Is my English teacher as insane as I think she is?
you sir, have just been issued a challenge, enlighten her to her misconceptions, use every resource you have to prove the medium as an art form, or your version of it anyway, but she sounds like an idiot so use small words >.>
 

Reaper195

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Jul 5, 2009
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Narrow minded who still things video games are simply for a couple of hours of entertainment a week and nothing else. People like this, it's so much easier, and better, to simply not bring it up and argue with them.
 

SuccessAndBiscuts

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Nov 9, 2009
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Ask your teacher what she feels gives her the right to be an authority on a purely subjective medium?

My aunt works at the Glasgow school of art and agrees entirely with me when I say I have as much authority on what makes good art as she does and I'm a computer science student.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_School_of_Art

(incidentally her maiden name, also my sirname, is Mackintosh so if anyone has a right to be snobby its her)

It is a subjective medium and no amount of snobby "I'm right you are wrong" clique-ism is going to change that. Hell her most common complaint is about the snobbishness she has to deal with day to day from people who are as far removed from the artists they revere as its possible to get.
 

Flare_Dragon123

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Aug 26, 2010
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Well some video games I wouldn't classify as "Art", just the same as some Movies I wouldn't consider "Art" and some music I wouldn't call "Art". It depends on the quality of the game. For instance, I wouldn't call Call of Duty: Black Ops, Art even though it happens to be a game that I consider to be loads of multiplayer fun.

At this point you'd have to define what YOU consider art is. If you want to step back, I consider all three mediums Artistic Mediums. But just like everything else most of it is abused for different reasons. Action movies that appeal to the masses (EXACTLY like Action Games that appeal to the masses) are typically never there to do anything besides make money. There are exceptions to every rule.

Your teachers attitude is unsurprising, as previously stated, because she's had little experience with the medium. If she were to play Shadow of the Colossus, she'd probably have a completely different opinion.

That being said, unlike in Writing and Movies, I find that there are far fewer examples of Video Games that you can claim wield a high level of Artistic Integrity, especially as games continue each generation. There seems to be an almost universal level of Action, Zombies, and other atypical genres going around nowadays, in both gaming and film, that are made specifically to attract John and Jane Doe into THINKING that they're experiencing something out of the ordinary.

Example: Mass Effect, great game, brilliant narrative, Bioware's focus on dialogue driven exposition shines through better than any other, but is the game artistic? In my mind, even being a fan of the series, I can't consider it to be anything other than what you can expect when the technology becomes available. Both games' stories have been subpar, the levelling systems have been a reflection of what is considered popular, the first being a near Diablo Clone, to the second being Gears of War lolworthy, and while I've been drawn into the experience I can't say that I came out of it thinking that the entire gaming industry would do itself well to take a page out of Bioware's book (except maybe the dialogue writing, not necessarily the selection).

Example 2: As opposed to Mass Effect, there is still a high action game that deserves mention if you want to talk about Artistic gamine in the recent generation and that of couse is Bioshock. Between the story you have to explore to find and the atmospheric world that tells a story in itself, Bioshock is beautiful and terrifying to look at, a brilliantly original idea (to a point) and even offers one of the most mind bendingly fourth wall breaking twists of any game ever, it provides an interesting backdrop for what is actually a very mediocre and too often seen game that prevails only in proving why more games with Bioshocks system aren't being made.

Gaming CAN be artistic, the same way that Music and Film CAN be. Your teacher just hasn't seen the right stuff yet. You think I realized how wonderful film could be before I saw The Godfather? Shawshank Redemption? Did I realize how moving music could be before hearing Metallica? Queens of the Stone Age? Pink Floyd? Can someone really realize how great gaming is without having played Final Fantasy 7? Shadow of the Colossus? Bioshock? Majora's Mask?

The answer, is no.
 

phantasmalWordsmith

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Not insane. sounds more like bigoted. It'd be nice if you could convince her but one thing I've found is that people of her generation aren't worth the effort, easier to wait for them to age into senility and then no one takes them seriously. So long as you think it's right that games are art, then that's all that counts
 

TerranReaper

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I'm going to say this now: Video games in general has a huge amount of diversity and can be several things. It can be art (Rich narrative), it can be sport (Great competitive play), time waster (casual games), it can be almost anything. It can be art, but it doesn't necessarily have to be art. On a side note, games that are considered art aren't superior to games that are not considered art.

OT: Your teacher is an example of the older generation refusing to take video games seriously and merely places them in a category as "worthless technology".
 

MaxP779

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Jan 21, 2011
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Yeah your english teacher sucks lol, sounds like shes got a pretty backwards view on things, many games are like an interactive movie in a way as they have compelling storylines etc.
 

Tim Mazzola

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Dec 27, 2010
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Eh, she's ignorant and primitive-minded. She's just living in the past. If she wants to be ignorant, ignore her.