Wait, Too Human sucks? What?

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WhiteTigerShiro

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Sep 26, 2008
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The Iron Ninja post=9.73175.786419 said:
wilsonscrazybed post=9.73175.786388 said:
ZP will always be entertainment to me, and rarely a source of good information about what I should play.
Everyone would do well to pay attention to this man, as he has summed up Zero Punctuation perfectly. Watch the review, have a laugh if you're so inclined, and then go and find a review not built for the purpose of entertaining you.
Lets take for example his most recent game he reviewed (note: The game,not the review itself), I bought Mercenaries 2 when it came out, I was rather disapointed with it, alot of things I was expecting to see (local co-op, decent AI, more Russians) didn't make it. As I said I was faily disapointed (If my 360 hadn't managed to scratch the disk on day one I would have returned it) but Mercenaries 2 is still a game that I will play, and often have fun with. I'll complain about it here alot, but a game is a game, it may not be perfect, but it serves it's purpose, entertainment.
Doesn't your example kind of support Yahtzee? I mean... Yahtzee's review pretty much said exactly what you did: The game was disappointing, but it's still fun.

As for my own personal experiences, I bought both The Orange Box and No More Heroes based on his reviews alone (Orange Box because I didn't know it had HL2 and Ep1 until I saw his review, both of which I missed because I had a crap PC when they were out, and No More Heroes because it sounded like an interesting game).

The thing to remember with his reviews is the thing to remember with all reviews: Don't just pay attention to the fact that review is praising or bashing the game, pay attention to WHAT they're praising or bashing. A stellar review that praises a bunch of gameplay features I don't care about won't sell the game for me, and a poor review where everything that the review slams on is a feature that doesn't bug me won't kill the game for me. Heck, I read a review for a game (forget which) and they were bashing on the game for having a gameplay feature that I actually LIKE in some games. So you have to know what to look for.

Edit: Though with Yahtzee you also have to remember that his reviews are more for entertainment value and less about being a thorough review.
 

The Iron Ninja

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Aug 13, 2008
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WhiteTigerShiro post=9.73175.786424 said:
Doesn't your example kind of support Yahtzee? I mean... Yahtzee's review pretty much said exactly what you did: The game was disappointing, but it's still fun.
Did I say he was wrong?

I just don't think his reviews should be used as a basis for whether you buy a game or not.
 

kenji10000

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Aug 24, 2008
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I liked the gunplay in this game. Yahtzee said the guns didnt work well but i play a commando and they do, and if you think back to the brawl review yahtzee said if you enjoy the game then great and reviews shouldn't bother you. He says many true things but i still enjoy the game so you can't base all your game choices based on reviews.
 

Sirisaxman

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Jun 8, 2008
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He tends to pan most of the games I like, but I don't take offence, because like above posters have been saying, Yahtzee's mainly for a laugh.
 

Alex_P

All I really do is threadcrap
Mar 27, 2008
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Graustein post=9.73175.786112 said:
meatloaf231 post=9.73175.786100 said:
It's a reviewer's job to take any aspect of a game that's not perfect, make a big deal about it, and decry the rest of the game for it's failings.

But I'd rather have them do that than review everything really well and downplay any flaws. At least you know what's wrong with the game.
Isn't that what critics do? I thought reviewers were meant to focus on both the good and the bad and then give an overall opinion
Reviewers tell you whether something is worth paying for.

Critics aren't people who say negative stuff. Oftentimes, "critics" are just reviewers. When they are not, they are supposed to be discussing or evaluating a work based on its artistic and thematic content. There's almost no one who actually does this kind of criticism with video games.

-- Alex
 

Novajam

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wilsonscrazybed post=9.73175.786388 said:
I think the real issue here is that much like the rest of the internet loud angry people get heard, and you have to seek out the quiet thinkers. We all know that sensationalism gets your website traffic. Proclaiming loudly that X game loved by millions 'sucks' will get you a lot of attention if you have a platform. Just go read over the comments section in Yahtzee's video review of Smash Brothers. I always shudder when I see someone trying to emulate the style who doesn't quite get the subtle self-deprecating irony of Zero Punctuation. ZP will always be entertainment to me, and rarely a source of good information about what I should play.
That makes me wonder, do you ever get up the day after the latest ZP is posted and know you're going to have to trudge through ten pages of comments, giving out bans and probations left right and centre? Has it got to a point where you and Nilcypher have to take turns?

Anyway, if you're enjoying Too Human then all the better for you. I played the demo, just too slow and difficult for me. It looks nice and the story is strong, but the camera and some of the fighting were just to hard for me to grasp.
 

Amnestic

High Priest of Haruhi
Aug 22, 2008
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Wow, this thread is only...a month late.

I rented Too Human, and I have to say, I'm enjoying it.
I'm looking at Yahtzee's review, and the negative reviews of it.
I have to ask.
What games are they playing?
I haven't even experienced any of the problems that Yahtzee pointed out in his review.

The camera can be fixed if you don't have it as far out as possible, and the combat isn't sticky.
It's quite fast, and realistic.
Baldur is holding a heavy weapon, so he's not gonna be like super fast.

So, seriously.
Why all the bad reviews?
So I read your post, and I have to say, it's a bit silly.
I'm looking at other people's posts and ideas.
I have to ask.
What the hell is with your addiction to the Enter key?
Seriously, some sort of weird fetish or something? It's actually uncomfortable to me mimicking you.

1) You should't *have* to ignore one of the settings of the camera, the setting designed so you could have a largest view over the fight, in a combat game.

2) Combat is sticky, in my opinion. Baldur always seems to take a moment after each swing to gloat or just revel in the fact that he's so awesome and amazing and whatnot.

3) Fast? Maybe for you. Realistic? Uh...no. Realistic [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/realistic]. That's certainly not how you used it. Baldur may be holding a heavy weapon with you, but he does it even when he's using a single shortsword. Remember that this guy is not only a well trained military machine, he's also cybernetically enhanced. Swinging a shortsword should be one of those "faster than the eye can see" movements. As it is, it feels sluggish generally.

So, why so serious? (Obligatory Dark Knight reference hoy!)
 

searanox

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Sep 22, 2008
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I was actually interested in being a games journalist for a while. Aside from being caught between my journalistic integrity and the advertising dollars, though, there were other factors that turned me off from it.

Reviewers have a limited time available to play games before their articles have to go up. They need to form an accurate, strong and justified opinions about games often after just a few hours of play time. This doesn't just apply to the latest forgettable shooter, too, but to hundred-hour-long role-playing and strategy games that take at least half of that to get a good sense of the quality and depth of the title. Very rarely do they actually get the chance play these games enough.

The second problem is very much related to the first, and that is that journalists, because they play games for fairly short periods of time, are going to be drawn in more than others by technicalities. Pretty graphics? Check! Good voice-acting? Check! Nice camera angles and controls? Check! The problem with this approach is that reviewing games becomes more about reviewing the presentation aspects alone without grading the gameplay; while some reviewers are mindful of this, many are not. I have said many times (not on this forum, but elsewhere) that Eurogamer, for example, rates games based almost entirely on presentation, and when it comes to either a 6/10 or a 9/10, that is true in almost every single case.

Now, take an unconventional game like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. It's a first-person shooter, but it's slow-paced, it has technical issues everywhere, it lacks decent voice-acting (most of the game doesn't even have any), the graphics are good in stills but the animation is stiff, there's almost no coherent storyline the first time through the game, and it's very, very easy to take the game at face value and rate it based on technical merit alone, which is what many reviewers did when it came out (they did the same with the sequel too, although more justified in that case due to the number of crash-causing bugs it had on release).

However, playing and reviewing the game in this way just doesn't work. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is an open-world sandbox game emphasising emergent gameplay and light role-playing elements. The best parts of the game, though, may not be felt until much later on. Let me try to paint a picture: the Zone is a large, fairly open world. Your goal is to get to the centre of it, but as you get closer and closer, you get farther and farther from civilisation, from safety and security. The enemies get more and more dangerous as you go in, use different weapons, etc. You need to stock up on food, drink, anti-radiation medicine, health kits and bandages, and tons of ammunition for your weapons. Coupled with a big bulky suit of armour that's required to survive the radiation and enemies present, this means that you're left fairly burdened and won't be able to carry much extra stuff with you. Now, in the game, there also happen to be artifacts: highly irradiated objects which give the player special benefits for wearing them, but more importantly can be sold for a large amount of money. The more stuff you're carrying, the slower you walk and the faster you run out of stamina. I think you can see where this is going. The farther and farther you get from civilisation, the closer you get to your objective, the more valuable the rewards get, but the less of them you can bring back with you, and the more dangerous the enemies and the environment get.

Needless to say, everyone who plays the game for a decent amount of time will get to the point where they are out of health kits and bandages, have two or three bullets left for their weapons, are fully loaded with artifacts to sell for a killing, and emerge from an underground bunker after completing an objective. However, you also become incredibly aware of your own mortality, because all of a sudden it occurs to you: I have to get back now. See, more than anything, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is really a game of resource management, of weighing risk and reward. It may be a shooter on the outside, but it's all about using its environment and gameplay mechanics to their fullest to do one thing: instill a sense of fear and vulnerability in the player.

All of that above may be just sound a little too silly for some people here, but it's true; unfortunately, it's also an experience which takes a minimum of maybe fifteen or twenty hours to arrive at, as not only does it require some story progression, but also the culmination of progress up to that point. Throw the player into that situation from the beginning and it's going to have less impact; no, it has to build up over time. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a phenomenal game for precisely the reason I've described above, but people are much more willing to rate it on technical factors, on immediate, instant gratification than on the cumulative experience. Maybe that's because the reviewers don't have enough time, or simply don't know how to get that sort of thing out of the games they play. That's why I don't want to be a reviewer: it would kill the games for me.

More to the point of the thread, however, that is also why I don't really take reviews, especially of highly controversial games like Too Human, all that seriously. Mid sevens? Chances are the game is much better than you are initially led to believe, especially when the developers are very passionate about it. You can't blame Dennis Dyack or Peter Molyneux for the game failing to live up to your expectations. They are incredibly intelligent, talented individuals that care deeply about what they do, but as a developer, things happen. You need to hit a deadline, you run out of money, your team isn't as experienced as it could be, the hardware isn't as capable as you thought, the ideas that sound great from a design perspective just don't work that well. Too Human is a classic case of a game where people rate it down on technicalities like strange control schemes, inconsistent presentation, bugs, etc.; in otherwords, all the stuff that their spokespeople (or effigies, if you prefer) are generally not responsible for. Admittedly, I have not played it; this is just the impression I get from the outside, simply because I have seen it in so many games. The fact of the matter is, what separates a good game from a great game these days has nothing to do with gameplay or design, it has everything to do with how pretty and immediately accessible your game is, and it's a crying shame. Reviewers, and consumers, have to realise that not all games can be perfectly polished blockbusters, even when they want to be, and to look a bit deeper at games to figure out what makes them really tick.

I also know that nobody here will read this post, because it's a bit too long for most of you kids. If you got this far, pat yourself on the back.
 

Blind Punk Riot

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Aug 6, 2008
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yeah i downloaded a demo of it and played it for a bit. its much the reason why i dont like devil may cry 4.


walk, kill, walk, kill.

button bashing idiocy is how i saw it. but i did enjoy using the right analog stick for swordplay... for atleast like 10 minutes.
 

MurderousToaster

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Sirisaxman post=9.73175.786130 said:
Too Human is one of those games that people either seem to love or hate. For me it's just a matter of whether or not the negatives in a game interfere with my enjoyment. If not, then I'll like the game, regardless of what other people think. I've noticed similar trends with other games I like, i.e. Mass Effect, Star Wars: TFU, Oblivion, etc. Sure these games are flawed, and in some cases annoyingly so, but overall I had fun, so to me, they're good games.
Like marmite. But made of disk.
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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I really wish these forums had like, size 36 letters cause I'm tired of writing this:


It would be nice to remember - ALL - reviews are SUBJECTIVE [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subjective]. There is NO such a thing as an "objective review".

A good reviewer will give you HIS educated opinion of a game, according to his taste. You can't fault a review for being right or wrong according to YOUR taste.



I, for once, love Yahtzee's reviews as a source of information, because I, mostly, share yahtzee's tastes in gaming (from what I've seen so far at least). But then again a lot of people love WoW, EVE and more recently Warhammer and I think they're gigantic buckets of spunk and failure.
 

searanox

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Caliostro post=9.73175.786812 said:
I, for once, love Yahtzee's reviews as a source of information, because I, mostly, share yahtzee's tastes in gaming (from what I've seen so far at least). But then again a lot of people love WoW, EVE and more recently Warhammer and I think they're gigantic buckets of spunk and failure.
Who's Yahtzee?
 

Amnestic

High Priest of Haruhi
Aug 22, 2008
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searanox post=9.73175.786833 said:
Caliostro post=9.73175.786812 said:
I, for once, love Yahtzee's reviews as a source of information, because I, mostly, share yahtzee's tastes in gaming (from what I've seen so far at least). But then again a lot of people love WoW, EVE and more recently Warhammer and I think they're gigantic buckets of spunk and failure.
Who's Yahtzee?
You don't know who Yah- Ah, I see where you're going with that. Very clever of you.
 

GloatingSwine

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Copter400 post=9.73175.786110 said:
They think differently to you. It's weird, I know, but it's true.

Too Human doesn't seem like a game I'd like. Realism doesn't count for much in my eyes when it means the weapon goes "SWING, *onemississipi* SWING". Also, I've seen the gun gameplay, which looks god awful.
Attacks are nowhere near that slow if you're playing the game right. Which at least the Gamespot video reviewer wasn't (in all the gameplay shots he never uses the slide, which is pretty much the most basic combat move), and if you press the stick and hold it towards an enemy there is no perceptible pause between attacks. In fact, one of the characters can get his attacks so fast it's like sticking enemies in a magimix.

Gun combat in it works like a twin stick shooter, and far from being useless, as many reviews claim, is almost brokenly powerful.
 

Sirisaxman

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Jun 8, 2008
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searanox post=9.73175.786770 said:
I was actually interested in being a games journalist for a while. Aside from being caught between my journalistic integrity and the advertising dollars, though, there were other factors that turned me off from it.

Reviewers have a limited time available to play games before their articles have to go up. They need to form an accurate, strong and justified opinions about games often after just a few hours of play time. This doesn't just apply to the latest forgettable shooter, too, but to hundred-hour-long role-playing and strategy games that take at least half of that to get a good sense of the quality and depth of the title. Very rarely do they actually get the chance play these games enough.

The second problem is very much related to the first, and that is that journalists, because they play games for fairly short periods of time, are going to be drawn in more than others by technicalities. Pretty graphics? Check! Good voice-acting? Check! Nice camera angles and controls? Check! The problem with this approach is that reviewing games becomes more about reviewing the presentation aspects alone without grading the gameplay; while some reviewers are mindful of this, many are not. I have said many times (not on this forum, but elsewhere) that Eurogamer, for example, rates games based almost entirely on presentation, and when it comes to either a 6/10 or a 9/10, that is true in almost every single case.

Now, take an unconventional game like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. It's a first-person shooter, but it's slow-paced, it has technical issues everywhere, it lacks decent voice-acting (most of the game doesn't even have any), the graphics are good in stills but the animation is stiff, there's almost no coherent storyline the first time through the game, and it's very, very easy to take the game at face value and rate it based on technical merit alone, which is what many reviewers did when it came out (they did the same with the sequel too, although more justified in that case due to the number of crash-causing bugs it had on release).

However, playing and reviewing the game in this way just doesn't work. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is an open-world sandbox game emphasising emergent gameplay and light role-playing elements. The best parts of the game, though, may not be felt until much later on. Let me try to paint a picture: the Zone is a large, fairly open world. Your goal is to get to the centre of it, but as you get closer and closer, you get farther and farther from civilisation, from safety and security. The enemies get more and more dangerous as you go in, use different weapons, etc. You need to stock up on food, drink, anti-radiation medicine, health kits and bandages, and tons of ammunition for your weapons. Coupled with a big bulky suit of armour that's required to survive the radiation and enemies present, this means that you're left fairly burdened and won't be able to carry much extra stuff with you. Now, in the game, there also happen to be artifacts: highly irradiated objects which give the player special benefits for wearing them, but more importantly can be sold for a large amount of money. The more stuff you're carrying, the slower you walk and the faster you run out of stamina. I think you can see where this is going. The farther and farther you get from civilisation, the closer you get to your objective, the more valuable the rewards get, but the less of them you can bring back with you, and the more dangerous the enemies and the environment get.

Needless to say, everyone who plays the game for a decent amount of time will get to the point where they are out of health kits and bandages, have two or three bullets left for their weapons, are fully loaded with artifacts to sell for a killing, and emerge from an underground bunker after completing an objective. However, you also become incredibly aware of your own mortality, because all of a sudden it occurs to you: I have to get back now. See, more than anything, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is really a game of resource management, of weighing risk and reward. It may be a shooter on the outside, but it's all about using its environment and gameplay mechanics to their fullest to do one thing: instill a sense of fear and vulnerability in the player.

All of that above may be just sound a little too silly for some people here, but it's true; unfortunately, it's also an experience which takes a minimum of maybe fifteen or twenty hours to arrive at, as not only does it require some story progression, but also the culmination of progress up to that point. Throw the player into that situation from the beginning and it's going to have less impact; no, it has to build up over time. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a phenomenal game for precisely the reason I've described above, but people are much more willing to rate it on technical factors, on immediate, instant gratification than on the cumulative experience. Maybe that's because the reviewers don't have enough time, or simply don't know how to get that sort of thing out of the games they play. That's why I don't want to be a reviewer: it would kill the games for me.

More to the point of the thread, however, that is also why I don't really take reviews, especially of highly controversial games like Too Human, all that seriously. Mid sevens? Chances are the game is much better than you are initially led to believe, especially when the developers are very passionate about it. You can't blame Dennis Dyack or Peter Molyneux for the game failing to live up to your expectations. They are incredibly intelligent, talented individuals that care deeply about what they do, but as a developer, things happen. You need to hit a deadline, you run out of money, your team isn't as experienced as it could be, the hardware isn't as capable as you thought, the ideas that sound great from a design perspective just don't work that well. Too Human is a classic case of a game where people rate it down on technicalities like strange control schemes, inconsistent presentation, bugs, etc.; in otherwords, all the stuff that their spokespeople (or effigies, if you prefer) are generally not responsible for. Admittedly, I have not played it; this is just the impression I get from the outside, simply because I have seen it in so many games. The fact of the matter is, what separates a good game from a great game these days has nothing to do with gameplay or design, it has everything to do with how pretty and immediately accessible your game is, and it's a crying shame. Reviewers, and consumers, have to realise that not all games can be perfectly polished blockbusters, even when they want to be, and to look a bit deeper at games to figure out what makes them really tick.

I also know that nobody here will read this post, because it's a bit too long for most of you kids. If you got this far, pat yourself on the back.
Damn, that's a lot of word.

Seriously though, I agree for the most part with this guy. Too Human is one of those games that takes a bit of time to get into, but once it sucks you in, it's damn fun, my opinion anyway.
 

Novajam

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searanox post=9.73175.786770 said:
I was actually interested in being a games journalist for a while. Aside from being caught between my journalistic integrity and the advertising dollars, though, there were other factors that turned me off from it.

*Snip*

I also know that nobody here will read this post, because it's a bit too long for most of you kids. If you got this far, pat yourself on the back.
I read it all. (hope I got the point. I'm tired)

When you're reviewing, it can be tough to cover everything in great enough detail. There's no harm in talking about the presentation of a game, but you get problems when you don't go into detail about all the elements. Graphics, Gameplay, Sound, Story and Mechanics.

If you only review a certain aspect then your reader isn't going to get a good idea what the game is like overall. When I review things I try and write at least a paragraph on the five "core" areas (listed above), but more if there's enough to write more.

It's not easy to write a comprehensive review, especially when you're on a time limit.
 

Blyyr

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Oct 3, 2008
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Hahaha
You seem to not get Yatzees point in his game reviews, he points out almost all of the flaws, which alot of people (Me included) find very intertaining, but that dosen't mean you will have the same problems he does

For exapmple, he did F.E.A.R, Persius Mandate, which was a good game, he was right on the money with most of his rants, but then again, I didn;t run across a vast majority of them... And the other reviews... Their are always going to be people who hate something, its just everyone's opinion.
 

TsunamiWombat

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Sep 6, 2008
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Remember Yahtzee is a COMIC Reviewer. It's his job to be uncompromising. He's not your one stop shop for opinions, he represents an extreme end of the spectrum, opposite of the end that Fanboys represent.
 

Devil's Due

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Sep 27, 2008
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Most people cannot get past the games faults. I personally enjoy the game, but that's my opinion just like it's the other reviewers opinions as to if it's worth the money or not. Too Human is a love or hate game. Some sites have given it 2/10, others 9/10. You're going to find mixed reviews everywhere, regardless for any game.

Lastly, Yahtzee is a critic, not a reviewer. It's his job to point out the flaws and get straight to the point.
 

Russia208

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Aug 10, 2008
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quit worry about what everybody else thinks and enjoy the game, if i listened to everything bad reviews told me i would of never picked up a controller again.