Warhammer 40K Lore Discussion

[SilentPony]

That's not really what bothers me about them. Their superhuman pride easily explains how they act. I still find them silly, but hey it's 40K. It's more of that these numbskulls have SOMEHOW kept their dirty business secret for 10,000 years even when tens of thousands of the Fallen have popped back into the galaxy since Caliban. You seriously want me to believe that not one of these many thousands of Fallen decided to tattletale on the DA to the Inquisition? What about modern DA and successor traitors?

Oh they absolutely have, and the Dark Angels just kill anyone who learns. The Black Templars of the Ophilium Gulf crusade captured a Fallen once. The Dark Angels showed up, demanding the prisoner or they'll open fire. The Templars turn the man over. The Dark Angels then proceed to open fire anyone, destroying the Crusade and all the Templars aboard their ships.

Later when the Custodians captured a few fallen, including Cypher, on Terra, the Dark Angels sent in plasma gun armed kill teams, and killed dozens of Custodians and Fallen before detonating themselves with plasma bombs so there would be no trace of who attacked the palace .

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Oh they absolutely have, and the Dark Angels just kill anyone who learns. The Black Templars of the Ophilium Gulf crusade captured a Fallen once. The Dark Angels showed up, demanding the prisoner or they'll open fire. The Templars turn the man over. The Dark Angels then proceed to open fire anyone, destroying the Crusade and all the Templars aboard their ships.

Later when the Custodians captured a few fallen, including Cypher, on Terra, the Dark Angels sent in plasma gun armed kill teams, and killed dozens of Custodians and Fallen before detonating themselves with plasma bombs so there would be no trace of who attacked the palace .

Yeah, but TEN THOUSAND YEARS. THIRTY THOUSAND FALLEN. I know the DA's have successors and probably don't adhere to the 1,000 rule, but probabilities say that keeping it up for that long for that many possible leaks is fucking impossible. The same concept of ten millennia being able to warp the behavior of a once proud legion would also just not allow them to protect their secret that long.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Not quite a lore discussion, but vaguely related. I saw this today and had to buy it.

 

[SilentPony]

He's a good sport about it.

 

[BrawlMan]

He's a good sport about it.

​

 

[Eacaraxe]

Yeah, but TEN THOUSAND YEARS. THIRTY THOUSAND FALLEN. I know the DA's have successors and probably don't adhere to the 1,000 rule, but probabilities say that keeping it up for that long for that many possible leaks is fucking impossible. The same concept of ten millennia being able to warp the behavior of a once proud legion would also just not allow them to protect their secret that long.

They have the weight of a galaxy-spanning empire behind them, that's institutionally spiteful, xenophobic, paranoid, ignorant, and religiously overzealous on a scale unimaginable to your average person. I mean case in point, look at the sheer scale of fuckery Goge Vandire was able to accomplish in fairly short order without a terrible amount of effort on his part, and it took direct intervention by a Custodian and the Emperor himself to put a stop to it.

If someone found out, and that person survives the Ravenwing and Deathwing long enough to tell the tale, the likelihood of them being labeled heretic and executed for making such allegations is far higher than anyone actually believing them. Hell, being hunted by the Deathwing and Ravenwing and surviving, is probably enough to be considered proof of heresy in and of itself. And, even if the person telling the tale was actually believed it's vastly more likely to be covered up by the Inquisition in spite of its truth, because the ramifications of another legion having a large chunk of its number turn traitor are too terrible to entertain.

 

[Ag3ma]

And, even if the person telling the tale was actually believed it's vastly more likely to be covered up by the Inquisition in spite of its truth, because the ramifications of another legion having a large chunk of its number turn traitor are too terrible to entertain.

I certainly agree that the Inquisition would cover it up.

On the other hand, so many Space Marine chapters (/legions) have turned to the dark side, I don't think a chunk of another one going rogue would be that devastating. And besides, I'm pretty sure even a few of the ones that did go rogue, some of the marines stayed loyal and passed on gene seed to be reconstituted as new loyalist chapters.

 

[Hawki]

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Peh. Everyone knows the Imperial Guard are the real co-op heroes. You get to fight alongside millions of your fellow soldiers in one go. Die together even. Not like those nids with their respawns, everyone knows that the Guard is on hardcore mode.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

You know what I think we need to see more lore blurbs about? The not-shit parts of the Imperium. They used to have those.

Like, the agri-world whose only exposure to war was that stray bit of Ork that landed like, 50 years ago, but the PDF corralled them without much incident. They've got plenty of fresh produce, towns and villages are reasonably sized, the taxes, quotas, and tithes haven't been onerous for generations, and then only in sector emergencies. They raise a Guard regiment every generation, alternating between men and women, who mostly go on to garrison planets that don't end up seeing a lot of action. Had a bit of excitement when a Rogue Trader stopped by a few seasons ago and Barry swears he saw an Eldar take off her helmet, but he also swears he has a girlfriend in Solusberg so you know how he is.

Stuff like that. Useful as balance

 

[Zykon TheLich]

You know what I think we need to see more lore blurbs about? The not-shit parts of the Imperium. They used to have those.

Like, the agri-world whose only exposure to war was that stray bit of Ork that landed like, 50 years ago, but the PDF corralled them without much incident. They've got plenty of fresh produce, towns and villages are reasonably sized, the taxes, quotas, and tithes haven't been onerous for generations, and then only in sector emergencies. They raise a Guard regiment every generation, alternating between men and women, who mostly go on to garrison planets that don't end up seeing a lot of action. Had a bit of excitement when a Rogue Trader stopped by a few seasons ago and Barry swears he saw an Eldar take off her helmet, but he also swears he has a girlfriend in Solusberg so you know how he is.

Stuff like that. Useful as balance

Yeah, honestly all my favourite books and lore show you the civilian side of life behind the imperium.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, got it a big argument (one of many) on the old Black Library forum over that, not everywhere is going to be the decisive battle of all time every other week.

On a related note:


(Actually much better than most official 40k lore, due to not being so OtT)

 

[SilentPony]

Yeah, honestly all my favourite books and lore show you the civilian side of life behind the imperium.

See, and this is my unpopular opinion on 40k lore but I find stories about just average people to be a complete waste of the premise of 40k.
This is a setting with genetically engineered giant werewolf space Vikings with magic ice swords fighting ancient zombie robot Egyptians(and that's two separate armies!), why are we focusing on some rando dude and his rando life?! Im an average dude, my life is boring, and everyone I know is an average person, and their lives are boring. I'm not coming to 40k as part of my escapism to just read about an average space dude doing his average space job and eating his average space noodles bowl.
I want the giant silver plated holy psychic paladins with magic hammers fighting giant blood monsters with horns of flame and wings of screaming sentient glass on a planet made entirely of animal fetuses chanting in a forbidden language.
Any IP can just give you average dudes doing their average lives. 40k is unique for mixing Primarchs, and Chaos, and Orks and Tyranids and Grey Knights and Titans and Custodes and Sector spanning magic powers.

I equate it to having a Batman comic about a janitor at Gotham-U, who never meets Batman, never sees him, never meets any supervillain, never gets mugged or attacked, never sees anyone get attacked or knows anyone who is ever attacked. He wakes up, goes to work, works, goes home, eats, watches a Cowboy movie and goes to sleep.
A great character study, truly. Why the fuck is it set in Gotham, and why is this a Batman comic? Why waste the premise?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

See, and this is my unpopular opinion on 40k lore but I find stories about just average people to be a complete waste of the premise of 40k.
This is a setting with genetically engineered giant werewolf space Vikings with magic ice swords fighting ancient zombie robot Egyptians(and that's two separate armies!), why are we focusing on some rando dude and his rando life?! Im an average dude, my life is boring, and everyone I know is an average person, and their lives are boring. I'm not coming to 40k as part of my escapism to just read about an average space dude doing his average space job and eating his average space noodles bowl.
I want the giant silver plated holy psychic paladins with magic hammers fighting giant blood monsters with horns of flame and wings of screaming sentient glass on a planet made entirely of animal fetuses chanting in a forbidden language.
Any IP can just give you average dudes doing their average lives. 40k is unique for mixing Primarchs, and Chaos, and Orks and Tyranids and Grey Knights and Titans and Custodes and Sector spanning magic powers.

I equate it to having a Batman comic about a janitor at Gotham-U, who never meets Batman, never sees him, never meets any supervillain, never gets mugged or attacked, never sees anyone get attacked or knows anyone who is ever attacked. He wakes up, goes to work, works, goes home, eats, watches a Cowboy movie and goes to sleep.
A great character study, truly. Why the fuck is it set in Gotham, and why is this a Batman comic? Why waste the premise?

To give texture to the normal life in Gotham City, showing why people would even bother to live there in the first place, and why Batman & Co would go to such lengths to defend it.

Also, I mentioned lore blurbs. Sure, the right author could make a fun one off with this premise, but it really just needs to be some sidebar stuff, like the lore bits about how the regular humans live on Fenrir

 

[Zykon TheLich]

See, and this is my unpopular opinion on 40k lore but I find stories about just average people to be a complete waste of the premise of 40k.
This is a setting with genetically engineered giant werewolf space Vikings with magic ice swords fighting ancient zombie robot Egyptians(and that's two separate armies!), why are we focusing on some rando dude and his rando life?! Im an average dude, my life is boring, and everyone I know is an average person, and their lives are boring. I'm not coming to 40k as part of my escapism to just read about an average space dude doing his average space job and eating his average space noodles bowl.
I want the giant silver plated holy psychic paladins with magic hammers fighting giant blood monsters with horns of flame and wings of screaming sentient glass on a planet made entirely of animal fetuses chanting in a forbidden language.
Any IP can just give you average dudes doing their average lives. 40k is unique for mixing Primarchs, and Chaos, and Orks and Tyranids and Grey Knights and Titans and Custodes and Sector spanning magic powers.

I equate it to having a Batman comic about a janitor at Gotham-U, who never meets Batman, never sees him, never meets any supervillain, never gets mugged or attacked, never sees anyone get attacked or knows anyone who is ever attacked. He wakes up, goes to work, works, goes home, eats, watches a Cowboy movie and goes to sleep.
A great character study, truly. Why the fuck is it set in Gotham, and why is this a Batman comic? Why waste the premise?

I know, you've mentioned this before. I do generally remember the opinions of the various Warhammerers on the forum, having been here talking about it on and off for 15 long years.

I on the other hand, as I have mentioned before at any flimsy opportunity, am an old Rogue Trader player that went off it around the changeover to second ed. It turned from dystopian sci-fi to gothic sci fantasy and I was not a fan of the change. Basically, I don't really like modern (or at least what I call modern) 40K. The space vikings, zombie robot Egyptians, chaos, silver plated paladins, sector spanning magic powers can fuck right off as far as I'm concerned. GW make some very cool looking toy soldiers and it makes for some great heavy metal album cover style art, but a huge chunk of the setting just doesn't work for me beyond that.

One of my favourites was 3 short stories about a minor character from the eisenhorn/Ravenor series, an impoverished magos biologist on a backwoods planet who was setting out to catalogue all the plant life on the planet. He arrived on the planet, had a couple of minor adventures, fell in love with the local arbites commander, got married, divorced, and then spent the rest of his days keeping birds in a wooden shack on the coast.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Yeah, got it a big argument (one of many) on the old Black Library forum over that, not everywhere is going to be the decisive battle of all time every other week.

Funnily enough it was an argument on the old Black Industries forum about why the upcoming Dark Heresy release should have/doesn't need to have space marines that brought me to the escapist.

 

[Eacaraxe]

You know what I think we need to see more lore blurbs about? The not-shit parts of the Imperium. They used to have those.

Like, the agri-world whose only exposure to war was that stray bit of Ork that landed like, 50 years ago, but the PDF corralled them without much incident. They've got plenty of fresh produce, towns and villages are reasonably sized, the taxes, quotas, and tithes haven't been onerous for generations, and then only in sector emergencies. They raise a Guard regiment every generation, alternating between men and women, who mostly go on to garrison planets that don't end up seeing a lot of action. Had a bit of excitement when a Rogue Trader stopped by a few seasons ago and Barry swears he saw an Eldar take off her helmet, but he also swears he has a girlfriend in Solusberg so you know how he is.

Stuff like that. Useful as balance

This is one of the reasons I love the Ciaphas Cain books.

Sure, he's a galactically-famous commissar attached to some of the most competent regiments the guard's ever raised, who pals around with the Imperium's highest and most elite. But in every major scrap he's been in, there's always been a Trooper Penlan, Felicia Tayber, Praetor Kolbe, or Zemelda Cleat right there in the shit with him, hopelessly over their heads but proving their worth against horrors capable of making Astartes think twice about their life choices.

This is why the Guard's near-universally loved: they're just regular humans equipped with whatever the Munitorum can source from the least resource-strapped nearby forge worlds, who knuckle down, do what's told of them, and get the job done whatever the cost. Hell, the lasgun of all things is more expensive, and harder to source and replace, than the guardsman carrying it.

Personal heroics of secondary characters notwithstanding, it really drives home how the overwhelming majority of armed conflicts in the Imperium are fought by the PDF, Arbites, Frateris Militia, and AdMech, and larger or better-equipped forces are only brought in when shit's already gone pear-shaped. Brutal Kunnin' is a good book for that, too, considering a single secutor ends up having a bigger impact on the entire battle -- almost single-handedly saving the day -- than a Warlord, Reaver, and two Warhound titans put together.

 

[SilentPony]

Look I'll be the first to admit the Siege of Terra series is insanely rushed, especially considereing the 20 years and 50+ novels they spent on the Heresy. 8 novels and one novella, to do the Siege? Madness.
But this?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/02/dan-abnett-interview-how-i-finished-the-end-and-the-death/

Look I was all for the End and the Death being one huge novel, split in two. But three parts? Just say three novels, and that the siege series is 10 parts long. That's just dishonest claiming its a triple stuffed novel. Nah, that's 3 novels bro

 

[Bob_McMillan]

Look I'll be the first to admit the Siege of Terra series is insanely rushed, especially considereing the 20 years and 50+ novels they spent on the Heresy. 8 novels and one novella, to do the Siege? Madness.
But this?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/02/dan-abnett-interview-how-i-finished-the-end-and-the-death/

Look I was all for the End and the Death being one huge novel, split in two. But three parts? Just say three novels, and that the siege series is 10 parts long. That's just dishonest claiming its a triple stuffed novel. Nah, that's 3 novels bro

Ah, so this why there's no end to the Bequin trilogy in sight.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

Ah, so this why there's no end to the Bequin trilogy in sight.

It's been so long since I read the first one I think I'd have to re-read (and re-buy) it. Google tells me the second one is out, so I guess I have that to buy too.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, they'll be another spin off series after that.

I remember when Eisenhorn was 3 books, and the odd short story. And the other odd short stories were unrelated, and that was fine.