Warhammer 40k Observation

[willsham45]

Salamanders are ment to be red eyed jet back skinned people.
Also Warhammer was origionally made by a small group of Brits and expanded from there you tend to sculpt what you know. So ye most humans are what you say although there is a guard chapter who would probally fit into the rushion camp and some desert dwellers, some units like the Rough Rider Command definatly have the asian look to them.
I think you will see a bit more divertion in the fantacy range.

 

[Thaluikhain]

In the grim darkness of the far future, all of humanity are English!

Technically they speak Gothic (High or Low depending how pretentious the character is being). They just speak English cos normal real world people don't know Gothic. Just being picky but it is an oft missed fact.

On topic, yeah they are largely white but there are a bunch of planets where there are other ethnicities. There is a Russian themed planet etc etc.

then educate yourselves!

Sa hunds ni beitiþ,Þái wulfos beitant.Sa þiudans saíhviþ,Sa skalks ni slepiþ.

i seriously doubt they speak gothic. Imperial Gothic is the name. It would be funny for them to speak the oldest known germanic dialect in the year 40k

High Gothic is said to be one of the languages of Earth, but most people speak a form of Low Gothic, which is any number of different languages derived from it. This is generally overlooked in the fluff, though.

Now, it's never actually been said what High Gothic is like, there's nothing to suggest it isn't Gothic.

 

[Thaluikhain]

i have heard that high gotic is suppose to be latin and that does not make any sense what so ever.How about swedish?

More in-depth fluff says that it's really some bizarre futuristic language that doesn't exsit yet. They use Latin as a placeholder for High Gothic, because of the similarities between the Ecclesiarchy and the Catholic church.

When the authors don't care, though, it is Latin, and all forms of High Gothic are modern colloquial English...they use English spelling and pronounciation, which makes it pretty English.

 

[shadow_Fox81]

not knowing much about the game or lore except its about war i'm gonna say it was probbably just uncosiously that way because all the more "classic" military engagements were largely fought by europeans.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

i have heard that high gotic is suppose to be latin and that does not make any sense what so ever.How about swedish?

More in-depth fluff says that it's really some bizarre futuristic language that doesn't exsit yet. They use Latin as a placeholder for High Gothic, because of the similarities between the Ecclesiarchy and the Catholic church.

When the authors don't care, though, it is Latin, and all forms of High Gothic are modern colloquial English...they use English spelling and pronounciation, which makes it pretty English.

High Gothic to a person that speaks Low Gothic is like Latin to a person that speaks English. Not just the Ecclesiarchy use it.

Isn't there also a Binary-based language for machines and servitors?

 

[Thaluikhain]

High Gothic to a person that speaks Low Gothic is like Latin to a person that speaks English.

That's a better way of saying it, yeah.

Isn't there also a Binary-based language for machines and servitors?

Well, they use binary code. Some authors (and readers) seem to think that binary code is a language, yeah, and won't be told otherwise.

Captcha: ateedu tse-tung

 

[realitybytes16]

Since you've just come into the universe, I can see what you mean, but I've been into the whole thing for a few years and there is a lot more to it. On the surface, especially when looking at the models, most are indeed white. But then you have the likes of the white scars (inspired by Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire) the salamanders (Jet black skin with red eyes) and various factions of the imperial guard inspired by real-world empires from various ethnicities.

It does appear to largely depend on how far into it you go, because I remember having the same thoughts when I started, but it is there. It's a good point to raise though, the diversity could be a little more obvious in places.

 

[TheBelgianGuy]

High Gothic to a person that speaks Low Gothic is like Latin to a person that speaks English.

That's a better way of saying it, yeah.

Isn't there also a Binary-based language for machines and servitors?

Well, they use binary code. Some authors (and readers) seem to think that binary code is a language, yeah, and won't be told otherwise.

Captcha: ateedu tse-tung

Well, but servitors actually speak it to eachother, wouldn't they ?

 

[Batou667]

Games Workshop was founded in the 1970s in England (which at the time was majority-white, and still is in most non-urban areas) and started off looking to Tolkien for inspiration (this was the heyday of Dungeons and Dragons). Their first major title, Warhammer Fantasy Battle, had a fantasy-medieval setting with Tolkienesque races (Elves, Dwarfs, etc) meaning that most races were light-skinned. The Sci-fi version, Warhammer 40,000, is basically Warhammer In Space, meaning that a lot of racial characteristics (including skin tone) were copy-pasted wholesale. Result: it's the 41st Millennium and most people are white.

Is it realistic? No, it's no more realistic than Elves in Space or muscular fungus-warriors (Orks) who fight against Gundams (Tau) and Ridley Scott / H R Geiger creatures (Tyranids).

Is it intentionally racist? No, it just reflects the racial norms of the game designers, their majority customer-base, and the source material the games are based on.

Also: Imperial Guard (normal human) regiments are drawn from such a variety of worlds and environments that they are described as having any skin type from deathly, pallid white to ultra-dark black, and everything inbetween. The models could be described as mostly caucasian-looking, but how you choose to paint them is up to you. Any racial characteristics you see on a 28mm model are probably in the eye of the beholder. The background material describes regiments who are (racially and culturally) similar to European, Slavic, Arabic and Mongolian archetypes.

And: Space marines are not white. They're not black either. They have hyper-reactive skin which automatically boosts melanin to the correct level for whatever condition they're currently fighting in, meaning their skin pigmentation is constantly changing due to environmental factors and isn't a predetermined genetic characteristic like a normal human.

 

[Layz92]

In the grim darkness of the far future, all of humanity are English!

Technically they speak Gothic (High or Low depending how pretentious the character is being). They just speak English cos normal real world people don't know Gothic. Just being picky but it is an oft missed fact.

On topic, yeah they are largely white but there are a bunch of planets where there are other ethnicities. There is a Russian themed planet etc etc.

then educate yourselves!

Sa hunds ni beitiþ,Þái wulfos beitant.Sa þiudans saíhviþ,Sa skalks ni slepiþ.

i seriously doubt they speak gothic. Imperial Gothic is the name. It would be funny for them to speak the oldest known germanic dialect in the year 40k

I abbreviated it because writing it in full gets tiresome. (I play Dark Heresy so I actually do end up writing it fairly frequently).

 

[Nouw]

In the grim darkness of the far future, all of humanity are English!

Technically they speak Gothic (High or Low depending how pretentious the character is being). They just speak English cos normal real world people don't know Gothic. Just being picky but it is an oft missed fact.

I don't mind at all but it was more of a joke as all the characters sound English in the videogames.

 

[Therumancer]

Spoiler: snip

Lol, you know I was watching some Anime set in the far future and it seemed like just about everyone was Japanese. I think something is wrong here...

In short, the troll is obvious, this kind of thing only becomes an issue when you pick on whites, and it's being done for that reason.

-

That said, it's been a while and there is a lot of contridiction about things over the years, but as I remember things way back in the distant pre-history before chaos messed up humanity's warp travel and it was colonizing worlds and such, humanity had itself come out
of a massive war that had almost wrecked earth, a war which pretty much pitted the East against West, with the US pretty much allowing itself to be absorbed into Europe in order
to fight a Pan-asian alliance. This ended with genocides being mentioned, though it never said which peoples were wiped out entirely with any specificness we can probably make some guesses based on the artwork.

A very basic version of what happened from then on was that humanity expanded after this dark age, accidently unleashed chaos (well actually it was the Eldar, but that's not supposed to be widely known) it tainted the warp and travel between systems, and most importantly destroyed FTL communications bringing about a "long night" situation where all of the millions of worlds occupied by humanity lost contact with each other and developed seperatly. Then due to heavy genetic engineering a superman was eventually created who was to other supermen what they were to regular humans, this guy was the emperor who pretty much started to turn the tide against chaos due to innate psychic baddassery before chaos turned another equally powerful superman on him (Horus), they pretty much kill each other, with the Emperor continueing to exist more or less as pure mind with enough lingering power to prevent chaos from totally sweeping everything away, and to allow people to continue to navigate the warp.

There is a lot more to it and a lot of "yeah buts" but that's basically it. The Space Marines were basically humanity's elite warriors who were descended genetically from the fighters who ended the warring on old Earth which is why many of the chapters can trace their lineage back to earth. If 99% of the Space Marines look caucasian, well that's where the gene seed is from, and also who is going to have colonized most of the planets.

I'm not a Warhammer 40k fan, mostly having read some of the books, and played the PnP game a bit (never been much into minatures). I have however been given a crash course in some aspects of the pre-history through the arguements of people who have been FAR more into than I have. Among them arguements about why you wouldn't see a high-tech samurai-themed Space Marine Chapter no matter how "kewl" it would be, just as why with the hatred of Nazis in Europe you'd never see a Nazi-themed one, which seems to be a recurring theme for a lot of people's personal minature armies for some bizzare reason. Basically if there ever were "Super Samurai Marines" they would have been on the other side, and thus died when humanity was united, and certainly never would have continued as a chapter.

Some people might be wanting to say "yeah... but" due to how politically incorrect this all sounds, but really I don't think there was anything paticularly vicious behind it to be honest. I mean when I look at a lot of Anime stuff (even if I'm not a huge anime fan anymore) I'm casually handed backstories where the entire Western World is trivialized or wiped out during the backstory, sometimes due to our own bumbling stupidity... if the creators even bother to try and justify the ethnic breakdown of the far future. Truthfully given the events of World War II, and the current rather unapologetic attitudes of the modern Japanese (which are incredibly racist and based on cultural superiority) that's probably far more disturbing than when you see it in western fiction with a culture that has tried to promote tolerance. I'm more willing to give western writers credit for something intended to be dark, or simply going with a concept, than expressing some kind of wish fulfillment fantasy via backstory.

The point here being that in the end it doesn't matter, and anyone who does care probably has issues they need to sort well beyond Warhammer 40k, or is intentionally trolling. Not being politically correct enough in fantasy is the most ridiculous thing there is.

Not exactly true. Firstly, the Emperor was around long before all that...as in, you could bump into him "now".

Secondly, the terrible wars didn't occur until humanity had left the solar system and spread across the galaxy.

Thirdly, marines were created on Earth/the moon, by the Emperor as he began re-unifying humanity, but they recruit from planets all over the galaxy.

Fourth, you can have eastern themed chapters. The White Scars, as mentioned above, are mongolian themed.

Now, if the backstory had ever said that only Europeans had survived, that'd be fair enough, if perhaps hard to justify.

But it didn't. Humanity went out into the stars, all sort of existing (and new) ethnic groups have lived on their own isolated worlds before being brought back into the fold. It's stated in the fluff that humanity is extremely diverse...it's just that the writers almost always restrict depictions of the diversity to people who happen to be white, which is an unfortunate trend.

Well yes and no.

The problem with Warhammer 40k is that it's been retconned a bunch of times, like the guy who suggested that I go read what's on the wiki. Whether this is currently the way things are or not, I'm pretty sure it was how things were initially defined, and of course when definitions have been changed or elaborated on it does lead to questions about existing conventions or reality things have been based off of. I think things like the so called "White Scars" chapter exist as an aberration from someone who figured "why not" when they saw there was nothing within the canon of the time prohiniting it, yet ultimatly if they ever decide to start a "back to the basics" movement again in 40k, that is quite probably one of the things that I'd imagine is going to wind up on a cutting room floor when it's found not to fit.

To put things into a slightly less emotional context, look at things like Abhumans in Warhammer 40k. Squats (space dwarves) who are a form of mutant humans are one of the concepts that seems to waver on being in and out, they have been there since the days of "Space Marine" yet the current interpetation within the concepts of the game would have them hunted down and exterminated by the Imperium simply for being mutants. Yet at the same time we see this, we have things like the "Inquisiition War" series that involves a Squat character as a second class citizen (but able to travel freely and heavily armed, and work on technology without any of the religious crap of the Adeptus Mechanus). The same series also involves some pretty direct statements about the Eldar being the ones responsible for unleashing Chaos into the universe (not creating it, as someone else suggested I said) and their plans for dealing with the problem.

Yes, we can sit here and argue back and forth about canon, but in the end it comes down to a preponderance of evidence. Speaking of "Inqusition War" just because he tossed out a Squat character does not mean I'm going to make many arguements about how being a mutant is supposed to be okay/tolerated within The Imperium despite all of the "destroy the mutants!" stuff that dominates 99% of the work... and includes those warped by radioactive sludge and the like as well as Chaos mutations, nobody realy bothers to make much of a distinction as even trying to do so could be viewed as heresy.

Sure, there might be a Mongolian chapter of space marines someone kicked out there, and people argueing in the new Backstory that The Emperor is wandering around nowadays like a pre-horseclans Milo Morai, but I very much doubt that this was always the intent.

In the end Warhammer 40k is pretty much an exagerration of UK/European culture the way a lot of anime does the same with Japanese culture or whatever. We have Orks that act like football hooligans, and a definate style to the whole thing that is distinctly european and invokes imagery of the glory days of european military superiority despite the darkness, more than the way things are generally styled in the US or whatever.

The overall problem as I see it goes beyond the actual arguement we're having to the simply point that when your dealing with a popular post-apocolyptic setting everyone pretty much wants to see themselves and their people as survivors. The idea of being one of a few survivors is exciting, but falling into the "your dead, everything you and your culture was is gone forever" no matter the justification tends not to be popular. Hence the constant demands that we see "Fallout" games set in say Asia or Europe or whatever else, when really that would kind of play havoc with the entire "apocolype" since those tiny groups of people wouldn't be so tiny if they were literally everywehre, all over the world. You relent to political correctness and next thing you know your pretty much destroying what made the whole concept powerful to begin with. Warhammer 40k doesn't use the same framing device, but I believe was always intended to be in a similar vein, nobody is saying what happened is nessicarly GOOD, but it did happen.

Likewise, I will also point out that 40k deals with an empire, as in ONE overreaching culture that crushes all others with zero tolerance. Most of the colonies that have developed very differant cultures did so as a result of the "long night" and are generally brought to heel, if they can't be assimilated into the imperial way of thinking then they get wiped out as heretics. Don't want to give up your traditional spirituality or re-define it into a guise of The Emperor? Bring out the flame throwers.... Even if one argues for more ethnic divergience, cultural divergence to the extent we're talking really wouldn't work. Especially seeing as any arguements being made about ties to old earth that might defend something would kind of ruin the whole "we lost all this knowlege" aspect of things. Again, you say "Bushido" or something like that, it doesn't matter if you follow Chaos or not, that's a philsophy that does not match the Imperial engagement doctrine as laid down by the emperor and his saints... time to bust out the agonizers and start making examples.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The problem with Warhammer 40k is that it's been retconned a bunch of times, like the guy who suggested that I go read what's on the wiki. Whether this is currently the way things are or not, I'm pretty sure it was how things were initially defined, and of course when definitions have been changed or elaborated on it does lead to questions about existing conventions or reality things have been based off of.

There is alot of retconning, yes, and it causes all sorts of problems. However, I first started taking an interest in 40k in the mid 90s, and I can tell you that alot of things have stayed the same.

I think things like the so called "White Scars" chapter exist as an aberration from someone who figured "why not" when they saw there was nothing within the canon of the time prohiniting it, yet ultimatly if they ever decide to start a "back to the basics" movement again in 40k, that is quite probably one of the things that I'd imagine is going to wind up on a cutting room floor when it's found not to fit.

The White Scars chapter/legion has existed since more or less the very beginning of 40k, it's one of the things that hasn't changed significantly over the years. You see them way, way back in 2nd edition stuff (possibly earlier, but that's the earliest stuff I happen to have).

To put things into a slightly less emotional context, look at things like Abhumans in Warhammer 40k. Squats (space dwarves) who are a form of mutant humans are one of the concepts that seems to waver on being in and out, they have been there since the days of "Space Marine" yet the current interpetation within the concepts of the game would have them hunted down and exterminated by the Imperium simply for being mutants. Yet at the same time we see this, we have things like the "Inquisiition War" series that involves a Squat character as a second class citizen (but able to travel freely and heavily armed, and work on technology without any of the religious crap of the Adeptus Mechanus). The same series also involves some pretty direct statements about the Eldar being the ones responsible for unleashing Chaos into the universe (not creating it, as someone else suggested I said) and their plans for dealing with the problem.

Yes, we can sit here and argue back and forth about canon, but in the end it comes down to a preponderance of evidence. Speaking of "Inqusition War" just because he tossed out a Squat character does not mean I'm going to make many arguements about how being a mutant is supposed to be okay/tolerated within The Imperium despite all of the "destroy the mutants!" stuff that dominates 99% of the work... and includes those warped by radioactive sludge and the like as well as Chaos mutations, nobody realy bothers to make much of a distinction as even trying to do so could be viewed as heresy.

Yes, the Inquisition War inludes lots of old things that've been retconned, including squats, but squats weren't dropped because they were abhumans, they dropped because they couldn't be developed by GW in an interesting way.

Abhumans aren't mutants. Abhumans are stable straings of humanity...generally looked down upon, but tolerated in many places. 15-20 years ago, you had abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings (Ogres and hobbits, basically) serving in the Imperial Guard. That has never been changed...if they've upgraded the models for them, it's only been fairly recently as well. the same abhuman Ogryn or ratling models you bought in the mid 90s for your IG army you can still use today, they've not changed in any noticeable way.

Sure, there might be a Mongolian chapter of space marines someone kicked out there, and people argueing in the new Backstory that The Emperor is wandering around nowadays like a pre-horseclans Milo Morai, but I very much doubt that this was always the intent.

It was. Way back from the earliest fluff, that was the way it was. Originally the Emperor was created by prehistoric shamans who committed mass suicide and reincarnated as Him or something...dunno if that is still canon, or if it's talked about, but Him pre-dating most of civilisation has always been canon.

Likewise, I will also point out that 40k deals with an empire, as in ONE overreaching culture that crushes all others with zero tolerance. Most of the colonies that have developed very differant cultures did so as a result of the "long night" and are generally brought to heel, if they can't be assimilated into the imperial way of thinking then they get wiped out as heretics. Don't want to give up your traditional spirituality or re-define it into a guise of The Emperor? Bring out the flame throwers.... Even if one argues for more ethnic divergience, cultural divergence to the extent we're talking really wouldn't work. Especially seeing as any arguements being made about ties to old earth that might defend something would kind of ruin the whole "we lost all this knowlege" aspect of things. Again, you say "Bushido" or something like that, it doesn't matter if you follow Chaos or not, that's a philsophy that does not match the Imperial engagement doctrine as laid down by the emperor and his saints... time to bust out the agonizers and start making examples.

Again, that's not true. It has been explicitly stated over and over in the fluff from as far back as I can tell (2nd ed, mid 90s) that every world is radically different in terms of culture. Yes, the worship of the Emperor is tacked on on top of that, but in all sorts of different forms, the Ecclesiarchy does not have one approved method of worship that everyone follows, they fight amongst themselves all the time about it. The third ed rulebook has a short bit about dealing with people from different cultures and languages you encounter on the Emperor's service (speak loudly and clearly). When missionaries find a new world, they don't have to plant their religion on top of the locals, they can twist the local belief system so that they worship the Emperor in some mmaner or other. All-father, Chooser of Warriors, Emperor, doesn't matter what you call Him, or how you worship Him, as long as you do.

Attilan Rough Riders, Tallarn Desert warriors were introduced into the fluff around 2nd ed or before. Necromunda (also originating about the same time) features 6 different houses, which are essentially different nations populated by different ethnic groups, within the confines of one hive city. Delaque are all bald and pale skinned, for example. These things all continue to exist more or less completely unchanged to this day.

 

[Xanadu84]

I'm surprised they aren't all white. You know, what with the Imperium being so tolerant and accepting...

Seriously, Imperium are almost the villains of WH40k

But yeah, I'm hardly versed in the lore, but I think historical influences are a pretty reasonable explanation.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Yeah, I've read in several places that Jervis Johnson thought the Squats had become far too much of a joke (basically being short, hairy bikers) to do anything with. It should also be noted that the official line is that their homeworlds were eaten by Tyranids, though it would seem that GW have been taking the stance that they never existed at all. There's also a persistent rumour that the remains of the Squats fled into Tau space and will be turning up in their next book, possibly being the Demiurg that turned up as a Tau ally in Battlefleet Gothic. I have no idea how true that is, and I generally take rumours with a big grain of salt.

Apparently the "eaten by 'nids" thing (which made no sense) was due to an offhand remark made by a GW staffer after they'd not been mentioned in ages. They'd been retconned out of existence.

The demiurge are a totally seperate group...they are another attempt at "dwarces in space", but are an alien race, with quite a different backstory...rules for them for BFG came out a few years ago, not sure if models did, beyond that one bust.

 

[EradiusLore]

yeah your just a 40k noob, plenty of everything in the universe. just need to read some books/play games etc

 

[Craorach]

My perception of it is basically that when humankind left earth, different cultures stuck together, so there are tons of worlds with different racial "themes"... however, in a universe with eldar, orcs, tyranids and tau.... racism based on your human skin colour seems irrelevent.