Warhammer: 40K TV Show

[jademunky]

Don't the tau kind of have a first among equals approach? Not to mention the whole "we are liberating you, do not resist" when it comes to spreading the Greater Good?

Yeah but they generally do not like to just march in as "liberators" and tend towards a sneakier way.

It's more like "oh we just want to trade with you more" and then it's "oh we just need to plop down a few outposts and settlements, y'know, to facilitate that trade." and then "Oh, also feel free to move into those settlements with your family, rent is cheap, mind the local ordinances."

So that by the time it comes to tell you about the "Greater Good" (which is just whatever the Ethereals say it is) you have already been pretty-much integrated into their society anyway.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Meh, Eisenhorn wasn't a great series, but it was readable enough. Dan Abnett is quite good at writing action sequences and sticking them in some sort of order, but if you're looking for a great story, or character development, not my first choice of author. But, 40k is action based, so that tends to work.

As an intro to 40k...yeah, no. Not least because Abnett just doesn't seem to care about established fluff and makes stuff up as he goes along. Again, that works if that's what you are going for.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

I definitely prefer Ciaphas Cain to Eisenhorn in the books, but I don't know how well he would translate to TV...

I actually think it would translate quite well, ethically ambiguous characters almost never fail to resonate when done right. Look at Walter White, and the amount of mileage that was extracted from the question of whether he was always fundamentally evil and the cancer diagnosis freed him to be himself, if he was a good man pushed down a slippery slope, or if in the big picture the distinction matters at all. With Cain, you have an almost inverse scenario to Walter White, and contrasted against the 40K setting I think it would play quite well.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

It's been a while since I read the Eisenhorn series and I'm having a bit of a rough time remembering the specifics. I remember his general arc is his fall from the Puritan mindset(choas corrupts everything and everyone. Do not mess with it) to the Radical one(I'm going to use demons to fight the demons! What could go wrong) but other than that I remember relatively little of his story or who he was actually fighting in the different books. Could someone maybe post a brief rundown of his adventures to jog my memory or to benefit those who maybe haven't even read them to begin with?

 

[Godzillarich(aka tf2godz)]

Not really into the 40k universe it is so ridiculously dark it's depressing to me. I still have to say I am slightly confused why they're adopting one of the book series instead of doing an original story set in the 40k. I feel like that would probably give them more freedom.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I definitely prefer Ciaphas Cain to Eisenhorn in the books, but I don't know how well he would translate to TV...

I actually think it would translate quite well, ethically ambiguous characters almost never fail to resonate when done right. Look at Walter White, and the amount of mileage that was extracted from the question of whether he was always fundamentally evil and the cancer diagnosis freed him to be himself, if he was a good man pushed down a slippery slope, or if in the big picture the distinction matters at all. With Cain, you have an almost inverse scenario to Walter White, and contrasted against the 40K setting I think it would play quite well.

I definitely agree with you on the character. Cain definitely offers far more flexibility on the tone that can be used, and his character/perspective is far more relatable to how we would perceive this crazy universe full of demons, aliens, and war obsessed mushrooms. I believe he also has encountered a far greater variety of the factions within 40k than Eisenhorn.

My concern is not with the story that could be told using Cain, but the mechanics of portraying what is IMHO the best and most fundamental aspect of the character:the stark contrast between how others perceive him and what is going on inside his head without an excessive amount of narration. For example, what outsiders see: Cain rescues an Inquisitor and her team that he wasn't even supposed to know about from a cultist ambush in a burning building by busting through the wall in a tank with a cocky grin and a suave "need a lift" line the would make even the most devout adeptus sororitas' panties drop. What is going on in Cain's head: "Hah. Taking out these stupid xeno loving looters is an excellent excuse to keep me away from the actual combat. Eat promethium stupids. Your small arms fire can't penetrate the armor of my fucking tank. I'm safe and sound. What do mean there is an Inquisitor in there? I JUST SET FIRE TO A BUILDING WITH AN INQUISITOR INSIDE? FUCK! If they die the Inquisition is definitely going to ultra-torture me to death. What do I do? What do I do?whatdoido? IDK just fucking ram the thing."

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

My concern is not with the story that could be told using Cain, but the mechanics of portraying what is IMHO the best and most fundamental aspect of the character:the stark contrast between how others perceive him and what is going on inside his head without an excessive amount of narration.

This is why I brought up Walter White. What makes Walt so compelling as a character is the viewer can't see inside his head, and can only guess based on his behavior, and left with the question of whether his intent mattered at all. We only get close to a concrete answer once in the series, and even then there's still ambiguity thanks to the possibility he's weaponizing truth. Eliminating that ambiguity would destroy the character, and the series.

That would be a strength in an hypothetical Cain show...because remember, that ambiguity is still present in the novels. The books are an in-universe memoir, as edited and annotated by Vail. The question remains open how much of Cain's antics are born of cowardice, laziness, and pragmatism, and how much is legitimate heroism rationalized after the fact.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

What an absolute waste of the 40k IP. In a setting that allows for genetically engineered werewolf space viking wielding magic ice swords fighting demonic Egyptian ghosts robots, lets have a story about some dude solving space Clue.
Why have Game of Thrones meets Danta's Inferno with Star Wars, when we can have Law and Order: Space Clue?

You haven't read the Eisenhorn trilogy, have you? It is far from a crime procedural and much more akin to a Indiana Jones movie set in 40k, if Indy had a ton of interesting side kicks and was bleak as all fuck. That and Eisenhorn does a really good job at showing the titular protagonists slide from idealistic, dogmatic believer into a cynic who believes that dealing with daemons can be a good way to fight other daemons.

Eisenhorn is nothing like the internet meme Inquisition, but rather goes a long way to show the tribulations of someone tasked with fighting corruption in a system that's endemically corrupt and beset on all sides by even more corruption.

I've read all the Eisenhorn books. Also all the Gaunts Ghosts and Ravenor books.
Also all the Ultramarines, Black Templar, Space Wolves, white scars, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, Blood Ravens, black legion, Eldar, word bearers, Orks, night lords, Emperor's children, world eaters, death guard, deathwatch, necrons and dark eldar.
Inquisitor books are hands down the least interesting and biggest waste of the 40k IP out there. Even if you want to categorize them as Indiana Jones in space, cool great, your competition is Halo meets Game of Thrones with Star Wars and Starship Trooper in the background. One dude in one place is the least interesting thing going on.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

My concern is not with the story that could be told using Cain, but the mechanics of portraying what is IMHO the best and most fundamental aspect of the character:the stark contrast between how others perceive him and what is going on inside his head without an excessive amount of narration.

This is why I brought up Walter White. What makes Walt so compelling as a character is the viewer can't see inside his head, and can only guess based on his behavior, and left with the question of whether his intent mattered at all. We only get close to a concrete answer once in the series, and even then there's still ambiguity thanks to the possibility he's weaponizing truth. Eliminating that ambiguity would destroy the character, and the series.

That would be a strength in an hypothetical Cain show...because remember, that ambiguity is still present in the novels. The books are an in-universe memoir, as edited and annotated by Vail. The question remains open how much of Cain's antics are born of cowardice, laziness, and pragmatism, and how much is legitimate heroism rationalized after the fact.

I think that is the heart of where our opinions diverge. I won't suggest that characters like Walter White can't be compelling because the audience can't ever quiet parse what/how they are thinking, but Cain isn't one of those characters. In fact, I would argue that that style of character is far better suited for Eisenhorn or any Inquisitor character really. In my opinion, you need to be able to see inside Cain's head to do him right because the very core of his character, again in my opinion, is the contrast between how Cain outwardly appears and what is going on in his head. If you take away the ability to see inside his head, all the audience is left with is the way he outwardly appears, which by the very nature of his character is incredibly misleading and the audience would just be left with generic Imperium hero #3749 rather than Cain. It even defines Cain and Vail's entire partnership, they have such a strong connection because they can see through each other's facade which so few people can. Obviously you don't need to go full blow Pixar Inside Out to do it, but the audience needs some sort of window to see the man behind the facade.

TL;DR You don't need to be able to see inside a character's head to make a good or compelling character, but you do need to be able to see inside their head to make a good Cain. But that's just my opinion

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

As for the Astartes, unless they are Chaos, they tend not to be relatable.

But nothing is really relatable in the IP. People and Inquisitors both mutter to themselves, sure, but you and I mutter about that dude who cut us off, Inquisitors about if they need to kill 100 Billion people. 40k is so nightmarishly terrible you and I never should be able to relate to anything that goes on.

and why are Chaos marines more relatable than normal ones?

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I definitely prefer Ciaphas Cain to Eisenhorn in the books, but I don't know how well he would translate to TV...

I actually think it would translate quite well, ethically ambiguous characters almost never fail to resonate when done right. Look at Walter White, and the amount of mileage that was extracted from the question of whether he was always fundamentally evil and the cancer diagnosis freed him to be himself, if he was a good man pushed down a slippery slope, or if in the big picture the distinction matters at all. With Cain, you have an almost inverse scenario to Walter White, and contrasted against the 40K setting I think it would play quite well.

I definitely agree with you on the character. Cain definitely offers far more flexibility on the tone that can be used, and his character/perspective is far more relatable to how we would perceive this crazy universe full of demons, aliens, and war obsessed mushrooms. I believe he also has encountered a far greater variety of the factions within 40k than Eisenhorn.

My concern is not with the story that could be told using Cain, but the mechanics of portraying what is IMHO the best and most fundamental aspect of the character:the stark contrast between how others perceive him and what is going on inside his head without an excessive amount of narration. For example, what outsiders see: Cain rescues an Inquisitor and her team that he wasn't even supposed to know about from a cultist ambush in a burning building by busting through the wall in a tank with a cocky grin and a suave "need a lift" line the would make even the most devout adeptus sororitas' panties drop. What is going on in Cain's head: "Hah. Taking out these stupid xeno loving looters is an excellent excuse to keep me away from the actual combat. Eat promethium stupids. Your small arms fire can't penetrate the armor of my fucking tank. I'm safe and sound. What do mean there is an Inquisitor in there? I JUST SET FIRE TO A BUILDING WITH AN INQUISITOR INSIDE? FUCK! If they die the Inquisition is definitely going to ultra-torture me to death. What do I do? What do I do?whatdoido? IDK just fucking ram the thing."

That sounds fucking hysterical. That?s an.........frankly anything of 40K I?d be interested in watching.

 

[jademunky]

As for the Astartes, unless they are Chaos, they tend not to be relatable.

But nothing is really relatable in the IP. People and Inquisitors both mutter to themselves, sure, but you and I mutter about that dude who cut us off, Inquisitors about if they need to kill 100 Billion people. 40k is so nightmarishly terrible you and I never should be able to relate to anything that goes on.

and why are Chaos marines more relatable than normal ones?

unhhhhh, because Chaos is awesome?

More because I can relate to characters like Lorgar over someone who just opted to soldier on and remain loyal to an uncaring father.

My comment about muttering in dimly lit hallways was just more a shot at the likely low budget the show will have.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I just remembered my favorite thing about Eisenhorn. He can't smile. He is canonically physically incapable of smiling as a result of being tortured by some choas worshipers where they surgically severed the nerves necessary to do so. That still sticks out as one of single most eyerollingly childish grimdark things I've personally read in 40K. It literally seems like the kid friendly version of grimdark. Oh no, poor Inquisitor Eisenhorn will never smile again. Truly that is a fate worse than death, and we would know, because literally billions of us are being horrifically murdered constantly by just about everything in the universe.

Edit: The great thing about accidentally misspelling Chaos in the context of 40K is that you can just pretend it was a totally intentional reference to bruva alfabusa and no one will ever know

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I just remembered my favorite thing about Eisenhorn. He can't smile. He is canonically physically incapable of smiling as a result of being tortured by some choas worshipers where they surgically severed the nerves necessary to do so. That still sticks out as one of single most eyerollingly childish grimdark things I've personally read in 40K. It literally seems like the kid friendly version of grimdark. Oh no, poor Inquisitor Eisenhorn will never smile again. Truly that is a fate worse than death, and we would know, because literally billions of us are being horrifically murdered constantly by just about everything in the universe.

Edit: The great thing about accidentally misspelling Chaos in the context of 40K is that you can just pretend it was a totally intentional reference to bruva alfabusa and no one will ever know

Yup, that happens in the first book. It's actually not that he can't smile, his facial muscles are paralyzed so he can't show emotion at all, which can probably lead to some intentional or unintentional hilarity if the show-runners have any talent.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

My comment about muttering in dimly lit hallways was just more a shot at the likely low budget the show will have.

As low a budget as the show will probably have, it'll probably have to spend all of it on the last episode. The first book ends with a big space marine vs chaos space marine battle on an alien planet with non-nonsensical geometry as an imperial fleet razes the whole civilization to the ground.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

Yup, that happens in the first book. It's actually not that he can't smile, his facial muscles are paralyzed so he can't show emotion at all, which can probably lead to some intentional or unintentional hilarity if the show-runners have any talent.

As low a budget as the show will probably have, it'll probably have to spend all of it on the last episode. The first book ends with a big space marine vs chaos space marine battle on an alien planet with non-nonsensical geometry as an imperial fleet razes the whole civilization to the ground.

IN an alien planet if I remember correctly. Wasn't the planet hollow or something? I had forgotten about that part until you mentioned it. I think the explanation given for all the "wrong angles" was that the architecture was bending in time as well as space. I can't remember why they were there though. Was there a demon contained there? I also think i remember them looking for an evil book at some point but I don't recall at what point in the series that was.

I doubt they'll utilize the "my face is permanently paralyzed" thing in the TV show as I imagine not being able to show any sort of emotion would be a pain in the ass for both the actor and director. It could definitely work but I'd wager that at most they'll go with a watered down version of it so that the Actor can at least look angry from time to time. There is also the issue of having a completely paralyzed face leading to some pretty severe speech impediments that I'd doubt they'd want to have to keep up for long. Did the book ever address that? I can't remember whether it never affected his speech at all or if it did at first but went back to normal after he received some medical attention.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Yup, that happens in the first book. It's actually not that he can't smile, his facial muscles are paralyzed so he can't show emotion at all, which can probably lead to some intentional or unintentional hilarity if the show-runners have any talent.

As low a budget as the show will probably have, it'll probably have to spend all of it on the last episode. The first book ends with a big space marine vs chaos space marine battle on an alien planet with non-nonsensical geometry as an imperial fleet razes the whole civilization to the ground.

IN an alien planet if I remember correctly. Wasn't the planet hollow or something? I had forgotten about that part until you mentioned it. I think the explanation given for all the "wrong angles" was that the architecture was bending in time as well as space. I can't remember why they were there though. Was there a demon contained there? I also think i remember them looking for an evil book at some point but I don't recall at what point in the series that was.

I doubt they'll utilize the "my face is permanently paralyzed" thing in the TV show as I imagine not being able to show any sort of emotion would be a pain in the ass for both the actor and director. It could definitely work but I'd wager that at most they'll go with a watered down version of it so that the Actor can at least look angry from time to time. There is also the issue of having a completely paralyzed face leading to some pretty severe speech impediments that I'd doubt they'd want to have to keep up for long. Did the book ever address that? I can't remember whether it never affected his speech at all or if it did at first but went back to normal after he received some medical attention.

If I remember correctly in the first book the villains (working for a group of chaos marines) had an evil book that Eisenhorn took and destroyed, so the villains went to an alien outpost planet because the aliens had a copy of the same book in their alien language. Eisenhorn and a small detachment of soldiers stop the trade for the book but the villains escape, and go to the alien homeworld to get take the book by force. Eisenhorn calls in space marines and they invade the alien home world. I don't remember the alien planet being hollow (that might have been the planet in the 3rd book), but yeah I think the alien geometry being weird had something to do with it existing in 4 dimensions and therefore incorporating time into the architecture.

I don't think Eisenhorn's speech was affected because only some of his facial muscles were paralyzed, not all of them.

 

[Silent Protagonist]

I don't think Eisenhorn's speech was affected because only some of his facial muscles were paralyzed, not all of them.

Sure but the muscles you need to speak also tend to be the ones you use to smile or frown or whatever. I guess you could take away his ability to emote with his eyebrows and leave his ability to speak unhindered. I definitely remember the book going pretty hard on the "I never smiled again" bit so it had to have affected his mouth. That's why I thought maybe they did something to partially cure him or whatever because when they mention it later on it's usually him being thankful he is incapable of showing he is surprised or whatever. I don't know why I'm thinking about this since 40K has never cared to let science or logic get in the way. I think a while back a bunch of people were groaning about a book where apparently one of the Primarchs physically catches and then crushes a laser beam in his hand

 

[jademunky]

Wait, he's canonically incapable of showing outward emotion?!?

Shit, we need to get Henry Cavill out of his Witcher contract. I suddenly know the role he'd be perfect for.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Wait, he's canonically incapable of showing outward emotion?!?

Shit, we need to get Henry Cavill out of his Witcher contract. I suddenly know the role he'd be perfect for.

Except Henry Cavill can be very emotive; just the DCEU gave him utter dogshit to work with.