Warhammer Total War: Greenskin Campaign intro.

[Zhukov]

After months of no mention in the fluff, it was announced suddenly that the Tomb Kings no longer existed. Every model was to be sold and any model that couldn't be folded into the armies of death would no longer be legal to play. This meant that every model asides from Skeletons were suddenly worthless. What's extra insulting is that during the End Times, Games Workshop created multiple new (and expensive) models for the Tomb Kings (like $150 for 1 model expensive) and within 18 months those models are now worthless in Age of Sigmar. Needless to say, I'm rather pissed.

Britannia is similar but they didn't suffer the insult of having brand new models to buy before being killed off and they still exist within the fluff. Plus they've been neglected for years so the pain is easier to swallow in comparison.

Okay, there's something I don't get with Warhammer players and Games Workshop. It's puzzled me every time I've seen people discuss them.

In short, what's making you play according to new rules?

If you want to use the old ruleset, or play with an old army, what's stopping you? Assuming you have someone to play against couldn't you just... y'know, keep playing? For example it seems that absolutely everyone hates this "Age of Sigmar" thing, so why don't they just not use it?

It wouldn't fly in official tournaments or the like (I'm assuming there are official Warhammer leagues and whatnot), but for games among friends it seems like an obvious solution.

Similar deal with the super expensive models. Why use them at all? Just use lego men or something. Do toy stores still sell those little plastic army men? You could get hundreds of those for the price of one or two "proper" models. I doubt you'd even have to pay for the rulebooks, surely that stuff is online somewhere, on a wiki or something.

You might say it isn't the same without the models, but if that's the case then why not use the ones you already have? Just 'house rules' them to be whatever you want.

People act like Games Workshop has this ironclad monopoly on the rules of a game. Why?

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Okay, there's something I don't get with Warhammer players and Games Workshop. It's puzzled me every time I've seen people discuss them.

In short, what's making you play according to new rules?

If you want to use the old ruleset, or play with an old army, what's stopping you? Assuming you have someone to play against couldn't you just... y'know, keep playing? For example it seems that absolutely everyone hates this "Age of Sigmar" thing, so why don't they just not use it?

It wouldn't fly in official tournaments or the like (I'm assuming there are official Warhammer leagues and whatnot), but for games among friends it seems like an obvious solution.

Similar deal with the super expensive models. Why use them at all? Just use lego men or something. Do toy stores still sell those little plastic army men? You could get hundreds of those for the price of one or two "proper" models. I doubt you'd even have to pay for the rulebooks, surely that stuff is online somewhere, on a wiki or something.

You might say it isn't the same without the models, but if that's the case then why not use the ones you already have? Just 'house rules' them to be whatever you want.

People act like Games Workshop has this ironclad monopoly on the rules of a game. Why?

They don't have a monopoly, but...a lot of people don't really have the the connections to play a game when convenient. Unless you have a load of friends that also want to play, you're stuck at playing at GW, and then you have to play by their rules. That's part of the reason GW became succesful in the first place, they gave you a venue to meet up and play what was and still is quite a niche hobby.

 

[Zhukov]

They don't have a monopoly, but...a lot of people don't really have the the connections to play a game when convenient. Unless you have a load of friends that also want to play, you're stuck at playing at GW, and then you have to play by their rules. That's part of the reason GW became succesful in the first place, they gave you a venue to meet up and play what was and still is quite a niche hobby.

People don't play with friends or acquaintances?

People don't make friends and acquaintances through meeting up to play?

What happens if two people show up to a GW store and agree to play by their own rules with their own armies? Are there people there to look over their shoulders and make sure they are using ze correkt rules und regulations? If you say, "Okay, for this game I'm using my Demon Warlord of Doom Death model as a King Demon of Doomed Death", does a bouncer come along, confiscate your models and kick you out?

What's stopping people from starting a general tabletop gaming club, all rules and models accepted depending on participant agreement? Seems like there'd be a demand for it.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

People don't play with friends or acquaintances?

People don't make friends and acquaintances through meeting up to play?

What happens if two people show up to a GW store and agree to play by their own rules with their own armies? Are there people there to look over their shoulders and make sure they are using ze correkt rules und regulations? If you say, "Okay, for this game I'm using my Demon Warlord of Doom Death model as a King Demon of Doomed Death", does a bouncer come along, confiscate your models and kick you out?

What's stopping people from starting a general tabletop gaming club, all rules and models accepted depending on participant agreement? Seems like there'd be a demand for it.

Sure, but a couple of friends and aqcaintences aren't the same as a whole store's worth of people, it's a much smaller pool of people to play against, consequently you are able to do it less and against a smaller range of armies and people.

You can proxy models as long as they are by GW and at least 50% GW for conversions, but yes, you cannot play old editions.

Nothing, people do, but then they don't specifically cater to the game you want to play.

Basically GW provide a space where you can go and get a game, pretty much guaranteed, it's a convenient service. Once they change editions and you don't want to then you are no longer er...served, by that service, your experience is lessened, you will get fewer games against fewer different people and fewer different armies. Nobody likes having access to something like that and then losing it.

 

[xaszatm]

After months of no mention in the fluff, it was announced suddenly that the Tomb Kings no longer existed. Every model was to be sold and any model that couldn't be folded into the armies of death would no longer be legal to play. This meant that every model asides from Skeletons were suddenly worthless. What's extra insulting is that during the End Times, Games Workshop created multiple new (and expensive) models for the Tomb Kings (like $150 for 1 model expensive) and within 18 months those models are now worthless in Age of Sigmar. Needless to say, I'm rather pissed.

Britannia is similar but they didn't suffer the insult of having brand new models to buy before being killed off and they still exist within the fluff. Plus they've been neglected for years so the pain is easier to swallow in comparison.

Okay, there's something I don't get with Warhammer players and Games Workshop. It's puzzled me every time I've seen people discuss them.

In short, what's making you play according to new rules?

If you want to use the old ruleset, or play with an old army, what's stopping you? Assuming you have someone to play against couldn't you just... y'know, keep playing? For example it seems that absolutely everyone hates this "Age of Sigmar" thing, so why don't they just not use it?

It wouldn't fly in official tournaments or the like (I'm assuming there are official Warhammer leagues and whatnot), but for games among friends it seems like an obvious solution.

Similar deal with the super expensive models. Why use them at all? Just use lego men or something. Do toy stores still sell those little plastic army men? You could get hundreds of those for the price of one or two "proper" models. I doubt you'd even have to pay for the rulebooks, surely that stuff is online somewhere, on a wiki or something.

You might say it isn't the same without the models, but if that's the case then why not use the ones you already have? Just 'house rules' them to be whatever you want.

People act like Games Workshop has this ironclad monopoly on the rules of a game. Why?

Well, if you're at a Games Workshop store, playing with old models or rules are highly ill-advised and liable to you getting thrown out. Playing with proxies or *gasp* non-GW games? Banned from entering again. So there's that. And thanks to a recent move I'm somehow near 5 GW stores within a 15 mile radius yet need to drive for an hour to reach a non-GW miniature-focused hobby store, I'm a bit bitter.

But you are right, if playing with an acquaintance at a non-GW location, there's nothing stopping me from using proxies or playing older games. And I do (well did thanks to recent move). I even am interested in trying out the different fan versions of WHFB 9th edition now that Age of Sigmar has left a gaping wound.

The problem is two-fold. The first is that GW is a very good model-making company and it feels rather lame to not use their high quality models. The second and more reasonable problem is that GW makes a lot of unique models to prevent proxies. The Tomb Kings in particular had many unique models not found elsewhere. And since some rules were measured by height or had a unique base size it becomes difficult to find appropriate proxies. The fact that the Tomb Kings had absolutely gorgeous models made the fact that they were being axed all the more heartbreaking.

Spoiler: here are some examples

These models are hard to find proxies for. And...yeah, they're fun to build, paint, and look at. There's a good reason why people still buy their models despite hating a lot about their rules and decisions, they make awesome models to show off.

Also, I haven't really bought GW since Nagash End Times 18 months ago. I've since either used my Fantasy Armies in proxy games that encourage that (Kings of War, 9th Age) or have moved on to wargames that are cheaper (Firestorm Armada, Warmachine). I still get to complain when my faction died off 10 months ago and we weren't told officially until just last month.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Stuff about GW's cuntbuggery reaching new levels of shitcuntness

Jesus Shit-*****, I didn't even know. There truly is no level of absolute repugnant cuntness GW won't sink to. I find it astonishing that after 11 years of hobby they still manage to find new ways to appall their customer base. Holy Christ. At this point it'd be best if someone just bought GW for themselves, fired everyone in the company, brought in people who actually give a shit, and saved it before it's flushed completely down the toilet.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Stuff about GW's cuntbuggery reaching new levels of shitcuntness

At this point it'd be best if someone just bought GW for themselves, fired everyone in the company, brought in people who actually give a shit, and saved it before it's flushed completely down the toilet.

Wizards of the Coast of D&D and Magic the Gathering fame?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

That old man sounds and looks a lot like the one in the reveal trailer. You know, the one who gets possessed by Tzeentch and calls upon The Changer of Ways. CA has confirmed that it is in the game. So why do I have a feeling that this old man is in every campaign, helping your chosen faction as an advisor and then turning on you once you near victory. Acting as the final "boss" fight of sorts.

Looked cool BTW.

I think the old man is this guy from the Warhammer Online cinematic:

 

[TheMigrantSoldier]

That old man sounds and looks a lot like the one in the reveal trailer. You know, the one who gets possessed by Tzeentch and calls upon The Changer of Ways. CA has confirmed that it is in the game. So why do I have a feeling that this old man is in every campaign, helping your chosen faction as an advisor and then turning on you once you near victory. Acting as the final "boss" fight of sorts.

Looked cool BTW.

Well, the adviser apparently uses a crow familiar and CA confirmed that the Tzeentch daemon is in the game at some point, so it's very likely. Given that Warriors of Chaos (and eventually Daemons) are playable in the game, it might be a bit awkward to fight it. Then again, the forces of Chaos are naturally prone to infighting.

Judging by your avatar, I'm guessing you have a soft spot for Wesnoth's orcs.

Heh, yeah.

Actually, the Wesnoth forums were my first foray into online message boards. I did a bit of pixel art for them once upon a time. Some of it even made it into the main game (although they may since have been replaced, the Wesnoth team were pretty aggressive about updating their art. The art director was a real go-getter, great guy.) My first contribution was an attack animation for the Orc Grunt. I was so proud of it that I kept this avatar as a little online memento.

Pretty neat. The Northerners were definitely my go-to faction when I first started. I noticed that they moved on from the cartoony style to a more "realistic" one, evident in the portraits. In the current build, only a few units have a full set of animations (skeletons), so it isn't entirely polished.

Over ten years of development and the game is still hardly known. Kind of a shame, really.

 

[Zykon TheLich_v1legacy]

Well, if you're at a Games Workshop store, playing with old models or rules are highly ill-advised and liable to you getting thrown out. Playing with proxies or *gasp* non-GW games? Banned from entering again.

Sorry to butt in to your conversation again, but...playing old versions and non-GW isn't allowed in store, but old models? Really?

I'm not a regular player, but whenever I take my ork army to GW I'm welcomed with open arms, and not one of those models was designed after 1988. My guard army is probably about 60% Rogue Trader models and probably the same for Marines, some of them even pre date 40K, and nobody's ever said a word except for the usual "cool, I love seeing these weird old models". There's another oldbeard there who use 3rd edition WHFB daemons for their chaos army. That's just one store admittedly so they might be a bit lax, but from what I've gathered over the last few years of getting back into GW stuff, you can use any GW miniature and as long as it's 50% GW you can use conversions as well.

By proxies I'm guessing you mean "that can of coke is a dreadnought" rather than "that ogryn is a dreadnought"?

 

[xaszatm]

Well, if you're at a Games Workshop store, playing with old models or rules are highly ill-advised and liable to you getting thrown out. Playing with proxies or *gasp* non-GW games? Banned from entering again.

Sorry to butt in to your conversation again, but...playing old versions and non-GW isn't allowed in store, but old models? Really?

I'm not a regular player, but whenever I take my ork army to GW I'm welcomed with open arms, and not one of those models was designed after 1988. My guard army is probably about 60% Rogue Trader models and probably the same for Marines, some of them even pre date 40K, and nobody's ever said a word except for the usual "cool, I love seeing these weird old models". There's another oldbeard there who use 3rd edition WHFB daemons for their chaos army. That's just one store admittedly so they might be a bit lax, but from what I've gathered over the last few years of getting back into GW stuff, you can use any GW miniature and as long as it's 50% GW you can use conversions as well.

By proxies I'm guessing you mean "that can of coke is a dreadnought" rather than "that ogryn is a dreadnought"?

Well, in that instance I was using my Tomb Kings as Elves because I was interested in perhaps buying an Elves army after End Times Khaine happened. The manager didn't like that and insisted that I don't proxy and just buy the models first. Maybe it's just that I had an awful GW manager at my old location but he hated when people didn't buy the latest models for everything. Something about "not supporting the company." The other GW stores are probably not this anal but since I've stopped playing GW tabletop games I haven't really checked to see if the others are any better.