Was Dark Souls 2 a good sequel?

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hazabaza1

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Nov 26, 2008
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Oh come on, at least try and hide your blatant advertising.

More OT: I think DkS2 was certainly a good game, a good sequel? Not so sure. It missed a lot of what made Dark Souls such a good game with a lot of things. The approach to storytelling felt kind of skewed, there was a bit too much reliance on the whole "cycles" aspect so after a playthrough or two it felt like you were treading old ground quickly, and the main boss strategy in the game of "roll to the side and hit them" was not only boring but easy.

Better than a lot of games coming out nowadays, but not nearly as good as DkS1.
 

II2

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Mar 13, 2010
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snomangaming said:
If you're a fan of the franchise, no doubt you were excited for Dark Souls 2. Did it live up to the hype? What did the game do to improve the series, and what were its shortcomings? What did you like about the original better? What were some new additions that you loved? I want to hear your opinions.

This video gives some pretty insightful thoughts, and breaks down the two games by different categories:

What do you think?
User received a warning for this post.
The Escapist forums kinda jump on linking your own videos, mostly in a 'no exceptions' way to deal with one shot account advertising, if you're wondering why your post got flagged by the admins, though for what it's worth, I appreciate that in your case there wasn't a lot of point in transcribing the points you elucidated on in a video you could present. I wouldn't have called you for self promo spam, but I'm just another nobody here. FYI, going forward.

Since your clip spoke on huge span of points, I'll simply share what I felt about it.

Given you're making youtube darksouls videos, I'm going to take a safe assumption you watched MathewMattosis's critique, which I find I'm largely in agreement with. That said, my expectations of Dark Souls 2 were maybe a bit different going in... The first game was wizard magic to me; the kinda thing that pulled me in like a game hadn't in years. I didn't expect them to catch lightning in a bottle twice, but compared to my library in general, DS2 a great title well worth the money I spent on it.

Generally, my problems with it are a litany of nitpicks, weirdly offset by the larger pallette of weapons, spells, items, etc to engage the slightly polished mechanics with. I played dark souls 1 alone, thinking about the world, whereas I play dark souls 2 almost like a 'singleplayer mmo'. I can't really bring myself to give a shit about the world or it's characters and my overall sense of presence was a bit like the new lighting and contrast / color pallette, muted and kinda bored. But fuck it, break the head off the santier's spear and check the movesets! hexes! pyromancies! loot! etc.

I think one of the key differences is that the enviornments, bosses, stories of the first dark souls became more tragic and resonant while you put them together. I don't know or care much about what or who I'm killing in DS2 because uncovering the lore behind it feels empty. Lots of callbacks, but without building off them; just references.

Glah I dunno. If someone asked me, I'd say absolutely buy / try the first one if you like videogames, period. Worst case scenario, it's pretty cheap now and you'll learn more about your tastes. I wouldn't recommend the sequel to them until they expressed really enjoying the mechanics of the first game, since that's what's been developed (often) in good directions, going fowardward, but it's more quantity, less quality as a whole experience.
 

Jolly Co-operator

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Mar 10, 2012
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hazabaza1 said:
Oh come on, at least try and hide your blatant advertising.
The best part is, this is at least the second time this person has received a warning for making a thread to blatantly plug their channel.

OT: I think it was a good game. I prefer Dark Souls 1, but I consider the two of them to be close in quality. I'm not sure if I'd call it a good sequel though. Assuming that a sequel is supposed to add new ideas, there don't seem to be many of those in DS2; then again, The Souls franchise is a bit of a niche thing, and I doubt the fans mind more of the same, as long as it's executed well.

If there's one aspect I can definitely say is better in DS2 than in DS1, it's the environmental diversity. Unfortunately, the areas also feel much less organically connected, with the game often just using lengthy stretches of bland cave or hallway to fill the transitional space.
 

Skin

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I don't think it is a good sequel. I don't even think it is a good game. I think at best it is a mediocre, 7/10 IGN rated game that only seems to be good thanks to the foundation laid by its predecessor.

If I was to ignore DkS and DeS entirely when talking about DkS2, I can see why people do like it. Lots of areas, enemies, bosses, weapons, customization, online play etc. But there are certain things that absolutely drag this down, mainly being, in a game entirely based on combat, the combat is pretty terrible. Again, avoiding comparison with DkS, in Dks2, the entirety of combat boils down to you fighting enemies with extreme tracking and large numbers with broken hitboxes all around. That is basically what the entire game boiled down to from my experience.

There were a few other things, like the bullshit cop-out storyline, the boring NPC's you were forced to talk to, the fact that even the simplest things were not explained to you (yet again) - hell, my sealed version of the game didn't even come with an instruction manual. And this is all before the comparisons to Dark Souls, which is far too much to type out.

So, mediocre game. Terrible, terrible sequel.
 

NeutralDrow

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I thought it was a better sequel, to be honest. More streamlined and player-friendly controls and customization (plus respec options), dual-wielding, giving me an actual reason to be immersed in my character, area designs I actually liked and easier transportation, removing the sting of the death mechanic by giving it a non-gaming-specific consequence, one or two pieces of music I could actually remember...

Really, if the ending wasn't a disappointing anticlimax, I would have called it universally better than DS1.
 

RavingSturm

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I like the location warping early rather than having to hoof it all over the place in the beginning. The levels are more corridor like compared to DS1. The Bosses are kind of a letdown but I like that you're not always forced into a brawl like in the first one. The multiplayer system is more front and center now. Some steps forward, some steps back.
 

Riotguards

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DK2 adds more to the combat in that you can now duel wield and powerstance weapons unfortunately this addition brings tons of exploits (like grand lance stun lock), the lack of actual use for powerstancing (150% more stat requirement, more stam consumption, plus double the weigh for essentially 2h damage)the lack of actual movesets for dueling weapons is also disappointing as they are hugely similar between weapons (at least have variation between a ultra greatsword that weights 10 and one that weights 20)

there's other points that i'd like to make but i've said it all before, its mostly subjective, while dark souls remains more or less loyal to demon souls (with some steps and backsteps taken) dark souls 2 seems to take some good parts and then sours them with lack of design (a majority of bosses having adds instead of unique and interesting designs/fighting)
 

snomangaming

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Thanks for all the replies! After reading/watching other people's critiques, I may have jumped the gun a bit with my assessment. I just love the franchise so much, and I REALLY enjoyed this sequel, but it definitely has it's flaws. Thanks for your thoughts, I just enjoy looking at the deeper parts of what makes a game so good sometimes.

Thanks also for the heads up on self-promotion, just thought it could spark some good discussion. My bad.
 

Sniper Team 4

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Hm...I think it was a good sequel, all said and done. It certainly made some improvements on Dark Souls. Spells are now a more viable form of combat in multiplayer, and the ability to heal yourself instead of the host having to do it is a nice addition. Combat, for me at least, feels a bit more fluid, and I like that they realized a human can wear more than two rings. Also, love the idea of being able to carrying six types of gear instead of four. Allowed me to switch my character to meet whatever challenge the game threw at me.
Except that new DLC boss, Elana. Oh man, that girl resists EVERYTHING. Came down to a straight brawl with her.

I also like that the story seems to be a bit more welcoming to new players. That is, it's explained a bit more by NPCs and you don't have to go digging so deep into item descriptions to get just the basics.

Of course, there are a few setbacks too. While I do like being able to warp right away, this also takes out the exploration element of the first game. There was something thrilling about finally fighting your way, for the fifth time, to a shortcut and then finally being able to activate it. Like Sen's Fortress, when you finally got to that stupid cage elevator. Praise the freaking Sun right there!
Also, the torch and lighting. You can tell that they had this thing planned out to make the torch a huge part of the game. Just lighting a torch, even in a well-lit room, adds a whole new level of detail. The way the shadows play off of the walls, the warm feeling, and just the fact that the details pop more. All of that got tossed out the window sadly, and it's a shame, because some of the inside areas look rather drab without the torch lighting. Also, I like lighting all the torch areas, and I have decided that I am going to light every single one this time through, but there's a point in the game where they all just vanish. I guess that's the part where the developers abandoned the idea.

Finally, while I like the story being told a bit more, by doing this there are some some painful questions left over and I feel that these questions are the developers trying to be mysterious like the first game, but instead it just comes across as sloppy.
The "prize" that was stolen from the giants. It really feels like everyone else but you knows what this prize is. The fact that it is said in quotes a few times just adds to that feeling. It makes me want to grab the Captain and shake him until he tells me what it is, because I feel like he's saying it with a smirk on his face. Why doesn't anyone just call it by its name? It would be like not naming the Bell(s) of Awakening in the first game and the NPCs just saying, "You must go do that thing." There is no reason why people would not call the prize by its name, unless doing so brings down some terrible curse, in which case there should be some warning about that somewhere.

The Old Dragonslayer. We all know who he is. Why is he here? If there was even some sort of small, vague hint for a theory, then I'd be happy, but as it stands it comes across as the developers going, "Well, everyone liked him in the first game. Let's just bring him back."(Fun Fact: If you look at the huge sword that those bird-headed statues are holding in the Tower of Flame, it is Gwyn's sword. Perhaps that contains a hint?)

Those are just some of the examples, but there are several places where it feels like the developers misunderstood the concept of 'mysterious' and thought that just leaving information out would give the same feel that Dark Souls had in terms of lore. An example where they got it right I feel is in Brightstone Cove, mainly The Lord's Private Chambers. It looks like a regular study and there's nothing there worth noting, so most people breeze through it. But if you stop and look, there's a small cage that has been broken from the inside. That one detail leads to a lot of assumptions about what happened.

All said and done, I do think it's a good sequel. Better than the first one? In some ways, yes. In others, not even close. Depending on what these next two DLCs hold, perhaps Dark Souls II will be able to narrow the gap a bit more with Dark Souls in some areas.
Also, please let us meet Shanalotte as a child in one of the DLCs. We know she's in the game somewhere because of the credits. Please put this in guys.
 

runic knight

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the sequel was a good game, fun but in the end it was not as good as the first.

While both share a large similarity in the combat system, map and theme design, enemies and bosses, and lore discovery, the execution of them is what separate the games.

Of the categories the only one that the second game does better then the first would have been the game mechanics. I say would because had it been pulled off right, it wouldn't even be a question. Unfortunately there were misshaps. Some things worked very well, like when it felt more reasonable when your armor weight went up instead of just the shear fast roll to fat roll transitions of the first game. While such ranks still existed, there was some slower ramp up between. Things like the agility stat and the attunement increasing both casts and slots. The smaller parry and backstab windows. These worked well and were welcome additions.

Hell, I was a fan of the new infusion system, separating item level from enchantment. Not so much a fan of allowing spell enchantment to already enchanted things but still, the tool upgrade was less needlessly clustered.

Other aspects not so much. Magic being grossly over powered, the entire soul memory mishap, poise being useless. Covenents being broken and ill-thought out. Some brokenly over-powerful weapons like the arbalest or the santier's spear. These had obvious flaws that impacted the rest of the game, especially since they wanted to try to promote multiplayer more. And they played off each other as well, taking what should have been an annoyance alone and making them into a larger issue.

For example, the covenants of the blue sentinels is suppose to help those of another covenant when invaded. Cool idea, and helpful to weaker players. Problem arise when the point of invading is made moot by game design. The covenant that invades makes it a horrible chore to do so, requiring you win duels in the arena to invade other people. Pvp wins in order to pvp, where broken overpowered weapons are used so only a few can farm the orbs needed to invade. Furthermore, the memory system makes invading even more of a headache, where skill and player level run contrary to what is intended and there is little purpose or reward in invading outside of the blood covenant or the arbiter sentinel idea.

so what happens? nearly no one tries to invade, so three entire covenants' purposes are sidelined. Of the arena style combat, matchmaking is broken and between dominant strategy, overleveling and just grossly mismatched power levels, remains largely unfun and in ways more punishing then previous games.

The other areas of the game, the map, the enemies, the lore and discovery? They lose flat out unfortunately. They all feel like imitation with few actual moments of genius.

The maps are very linear, and there is little feeling of getting lost in the world so much as trying to find out how to access the next series of linear maps. There is no feeling of awe when you find a shortcut to a different area you didn't realize existed or making use of the web of shortcuts and such to quickly rush to a favorite item after you know where to get it. It just feels very, well, video-gamey. Like a series of stages themed instead of a total world that i unique in each place. I remember the forest with the hydra and the tombs darkness and the library's crytal icy look and the crystal caves themselves. I remember blighttown though I wish I didn't and even the firey underworld. Hell, I rememebr the ashy grey lake under it all.
Of dark souls two, I remember the nexus...and the cove. And majula, always majula. Hell, I would argue that the central hub actually did a disservice to the rest of the game, as it always felt like a safe haven to warp back to any time, rather then the one you found a shortcut back to and stumbled back into with a sudden burst of "oh thank god I know where I am!"

The enemies are, in a word, cheap. I don't care if that makes me sound like some lazy casual but in the second game, there are so many more cheap enemies it isn't even funny. There are god damn invisible backstabing enemies for crying out loud?! Actually, they probably highlight the overall enemy problem in a nutshell. Those enemies are not hard in that they require you be precise or gauge your foes. They don't require you measure your response and progress slowly. They demand that the first time you fight them you die. There is no preparation, just a cheap, unexpected, unavoidable death to "teach" you the enemies exist. And that is the challenge of most of the enemies of the game. Not a moveset to learn, but a gimmick that kills you until you until you learn it. and I know that is hard to put into the right words here, but so much of the game felt like the enemies hit hard just because they wanted to be harder without actually making them harder. The exploding jumpers in the Bastile, the invisible enemies, the damn homing magic down in the cove and the shrine...
I suppose the best way to put it would be comparing it to a D&D campaign. The first game was a hard fight but every monster felt fair (save the archers in new londo maybe, though even they give some advanced warning that they are going to hit you), the second game feels more like the GM is intentionally trying to kill you instead of making a challenge to overcome. Again, I am sorry I can't put the feeling of difference into words here.

The bosses? I would damn near say embarrassingly bad at times. more then half are large humanoid enemies that you circle-strafe around and smack. Some you fight multiple times. The idea of improving difficulty? increase the damage they do, the health they have or clone them. I am sorry, but that is just lazy. The mobs are suppose to be treated like that, not the actual bosses.
Then there is the ancient dragon, the epitome of "make it hard by instadeath", who is also so ridiculously easy to kill when you know the trick that the idea of the boss fight itself is insulting. Lets compare that to the optional non-agressive boss of the first game, the halfdragon girl herself. Hell, bonus points since she is invisible too and does that right too. In the first game, there is snow on the ground so someone paying attention can see where she is, even if not exactly sure how she will act. You see her disappear beforehand and know she is there and to watch out for the massive fuck-off scythe. You get bits and pieces of lore to know what she is capable of beforehand. and when she hits you, it hurts, but you don't feel that it is trying to cheaply oneshot you.

Finally, the lore. The second game just feels less alive. Lore lacks a lot of the contextual placement that the first was known for. In the first. we learned about why phantoms invaded because of where they did and where their bodies were as well as lore from items. We learned about events that occurred because of the environment around. It felt like nearly every unique object was placed where it was for a reason, as part of a story to tell. In the second one? again, it felt very video-gamey, placed as rewards alone...

Really, while it is a good game in its own right, the second dark souls just pales in comparison in the end.
 

stroopwafel

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Jul 16, 2013
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I liked it a lot. Now, I understand how important a director is for a game(just take Resident Evil as an example) so when I knew Miyazaki wasn't involved I adjusted my expectations accordingly. Yeah its iterative and lacked a lot of subtleties the previous game had like the intricate level design and impressive monsters(Demon of Song was awesome though) but it also retained a lot of what made the previous game so great like the addictive gameplay and subdued story(which I actually quite liked). It improved on some aspects as well; it was a bit faster and more technically refined with almost no slow-down(definitely no Blighttown moments in this game). And the cloth physics were nice. Dark Souls 2 is more of the same, but with gameplay this fun that is not a bad thing. Espescially if you figure Miyazaki et al already moved on to Bloodborne and this game was mostly made by less experienced designers.

Now, this is one game I wouldn't mind getting 'remade' into the preview build they showed before. Not only did that version looked a ton nicer it also was supposed to have this lighting mechanic which should have been an important and integrated aspect of the game. Unfortunately the previous gen consoles lacked the horsepower to make this original vision a reality, but the new consoles should have no problem with it.

The Dark Souls IP is probably the most important reason Kadokawa bought Fromsoft so I would be surprised if we didn't see more Dark Souls games from this development team. I think with Dark Souls 2 they were also mostly testing the waters for their new engine. But anyways, Dark Souls 2 is probably the best game I've played so far this year. Now, in what can be considered a meager year for games that isn't saying much but still.
 

snomangaming

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Aug 14, 2014
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Sean, like it is good by regular game standards, but after following the first one, it didn't live up?
 

acosn

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The people who made dark souls 2 didn't really get what make demon / darksouls souls games. Marketers might have salivated at slapping everyone with the "this is so hard!" advertising gimmick but that was never the point- these were hard but it wasn't the point.


The game wasn't bad but it failed to capture the spirit of previous games and had some laughable bugs relating to hit boxes and enemy design. Encouraging players to just run away until they've dropped enough arrows in a target for it to keel over because it and its buddy leave virtually no room for you to get hits in- and when you try to dodge even successful dodges won't register- is awful design. The game isn't necessarily bad- the folks that made gaming a multi-billion dollar industry have been salivating for a game that doesn't roll over and beg you to like it with crippling concessions made to accessibility for years- but its by far the weakest title to come from the franchise thus far.