Wasteland Waste

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FalloutJack

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Nov 20, 2008
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Mylinkay Asdara said:
If I may... They're Raiders. They're not working for a living. They're raiding people for their stuff, killing and pillaging en masse. They're in these industrial complexes as squatters. Now, granted, you're killing people too. You're killing THEM for THEIR stuff. However, they ARE the bad guys because they're like everyone Kenshiro ever killed in Fist of the North Star: Morally dead trash who prey upon others and commit unforgiveable acts of barbarism for the most selfish and depraved of reasons. Again, your character can do that too, but if you're looking for the ability to justify yourself over the actual scum of the Earth, that's the way.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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FalloutJack said:
Mylinkay Asdara said:
If I may... They're Raiders. They're not working for a living. They're raiding people for their stuff, killing and pillaging en masse. They're in these industrial complexes as squatters. Now, granted, you're killing people too. You're killing THEM for THEIR stuff. However, they ARE the bad guys because they're like everyone Kenshiro ever killed in Fist of the North Star: Morally dead trash who prey upon others and commit unforgiveable acts of barbarism for the most selfish and depraved of reasons. Again, your character can do that too, but if you're looking for the ability to justify yourself over the actual scum of the Earth, that's the way.
I am glad you brought this up because just this moment I turned to my other screen to post here because Raiders have build lifts and pulley systems between tall buildings (and portions of quarry, and other places I've seen before, but this one was particularly "wow, that took an effort to find / make / set up") between their ratty little holdings. My Settlers can't figure out how to stand at guard posts I built for them without holding my hand.

Also - I don't know what you're quoting in particular that I said with "Boink" - not being rude, just don't know which of my several comments about Raiders industrialism in this thread you might have been grabbing.

Everyone is a squatter in any pre-war structure in the wasteland. Well intentioned or evil incarnate, they're all squatting as we understand the basic concept.

I'm totally killing them - yes for their stuff, but mostly and more so because they're going to kill me if I don't kill them first. Stuff comes from a variety of places in the waste and looting dead Raiders is certainly one of them, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly motivated to go out of my way to kill them in order to obtain things they have that I want or need. Usually it's more that they are in a place I need to go to or through and they're engaging me on my way somewhere - unless I'm explicitly sent to kill them by one of the many many radiant requests to "clear" an area or whatnot.

I'm not worried about justifying my own expedient killing of them - if nothing else I can say it's because they are "red" and leave it there. I am however pointing out that they are a seriously more industrious breed of Raider than I have seen in other games on a general scale - not just in a few specific instances. Enough that I'm starting to question if the developers understood the concept as eloquently as you described it in your post of what a Raider is intended to be.
 

Drakmorg

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Aug 15, 2008
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I don't mind the settlements mechanic. Then again, I've only bothered to get about six of the things, so that may be why.

Personally, my biggest gripe with the settlements is that they don't really produce terribly much of a mechanical benefit to bother with them. And what actual benefit there is isn't made terribly obvious at the start. Settlements can only provide three things of any real worth: Adhesive, money, and artillery support. And they don't start turning a monetary profit unless you A) have at least 6 Charisma (which lets face it, some people won't) and B) are willing to wait a really long time. So basically just the first and last two are noteworthy. I mean don't get me wrong, adhesive and bomb support is great, but someone had to tell me you could use the settlements to get that stuff. If I hadn't heard I'd have probably given up on the things around the time I recruited my fourth settlement and hadn't found any reason to spend time bothering with them. Aside from the fact that I just like building things.
 

FalloutJack

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Mylinkay Asdara said:
The Boink was just a snip for your whole post. If I wanted to focus on a particular line, I would have done just that. Anyway...

The Raiders MAY have actually built that stuff, or they may have just blatantly killed those that DID. We dunno. And even if that were the case and it's NOT like the Fiends taking control of Vault 3 in New Vegas, let's be honest... Is Barter Town really all that great? Oh, and as for the Minute Men and them trusting you... Remember, this is several games in. Vault Dweller adventures have made you FAMOUS by proxy. As long as you're not batshit crazy like you came out of Vault 106 (the one pumped full of drugs), they're willing to follow your lead.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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FalloutJack said:
Mylinkay Asdara said:
The Boink was just a snip for your whole post. If I wanted to focus on a particular line, I would have done just that. Anyway...

The Raiders MAY have actually built that stuff, or they may have just blatantly killed those that DID. We dunno. And even if that were the case and it's NOT like the Fiends taking control of Vault 3 in New Vegas, let's be honest... Is Barter Town really all that great? Oh, and as for the Minute Men and them trusting you... Remember, this is several games in. Vault Dweller adventures have made you FAMOUS by proxy. As long as you're not batshit crazy like you came out of Vault 106 (the one pumped full of drugs), they're willing to follow your lead.
Well we know in at least one case that they did build it - or got it working after they found it anyway - with the Quarry that we drain out that then gets occupied by Raiders. It was someone from that group who posed as a normal guy who asks you (me, us, whatever you know) to help him drain the flooded location and then when you come back later they have quite the little production going on that with penned Mirelurks and all.

Which, again, I'm just pointing out is way more "go getter" attitude than I am seeing from, like, everyone else basically. It's odd.
 

FirstNameLastName

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Nov 6, 2014
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I basically just ignored the settlement building outside of fixing up Sanctuary Hills and planting a few corn crops at the gas station. In fact, I've only been attacked twice; once in sanctuary hills when I wasn't there, and most of my stuff was destroyed, and once in Greygarden, which I'm not sure of the extent of the damaged since I haven't bothered to check. I liberated a fair few, but I never bothered fixing them up, and stopped completely once I realised how repetitive the quests for them were.

If you don't want to be pestered by a never ending stream of bland radiant quests, then just ignore them. Seriously, fuck these stupid radiant quests. The game is already packed with content I'll never get around to doing; the last thing I need is my quest log being filled with boring quests generated by a computer. The quests my technically be infinite, but my time is not.
 

Odbarc

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Jun 30, 2010
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The problem with 'everyone else' and 'raiders' is that there are SO many Raiders. It's like 90% of the human population. Or maybe even higher. Imagine playing Fallout and every person you came across took all your caps and equipment.
Suddenly Ghouls attack you but your too hungry to effectively fight back. You almost die. Then Super Mutants kidnap all your friends and eat and mutilate them. You feel sick but it's just radiation.

Then some guy in a blue unitard comes along and kills everything and says, "I've got a bed, food, clean water, walls, allies and television. No rent." Plus s/he's pre-war pretty and suddenly you notice another Raider/Super Mutant/Ghoul ruining all that he's made for himself and shared with everyone else. Do you say nothing or go to the 'solves every problem' Mayor 'Never-teach-a-man-to-fish'?



The chances are there's probably a lot of in-house slavery within Raider camps. You are either the leader who killed the previous leader who killed people to prevent people from killing him back or his/her slave bid to create or defend his fort so you can raid for resources to maintain dominance and not get killed by your own 'family'.

There isn't really a "new source of... [blank]" in the Fallout universe. It's just constantly passing around items based on moment to moment needs. Everything is run down. No one knows how to make something and if you did someone would break it or steal it immediately. People have nothing or next to nothing all the time. They're basically cavemen with laser guns.
And as the wo/man out of time, it's pretty fun to run around and being one of the few and only people in the world that knows what things were, why they were, what they did and do and how to manage and manipulate the world around them.
You can be sure no one is (really) educated like a school. You learn to shoot and that's about it. It's been a long time and people have 'figured out' the most basic of basics like making shelter in the crudest forms with the scraps that are lying around in the ruin and probably accidentally found out how to create food or medicine.


And the lore is pretty neat too.
 

sanquin

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Jun 8, 2011
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Odbarc said:
I have a problem with this concept. Even if there are no schools any more, that doesn't mean people slowly got less and less educated. 'Back in the day', most kids learned how to do/make things from their parents. And clearly more people from before the war survived, otherwise there wouldn't be any people in the wastelands these days. Knowledge would have been passed on. Or at the very least, knowledge would have been reverse engineered and re-learned. People didn't lose their intellect. They only lost their easy access to the knowledge.

Yet in Fallout 4, everyone but the raiders seems to be made up of complete morons that, as you put it, only learned how to shoot a gun and maybe how to take care of crops. I mean, they don't even know how to put some poles in the ground and put junk/wood in between them to make walls? That's impossible, imo.

For that matter, I didn't research it too much I admit, but how the hell is your character so tech-savvy? You can make generators, lights, armour/weapon modifications, and even maintain the highly advanced power armours. Where did all that knowledge come from? Especially since the rest of the wasteland seems to be completely devoid of such knowledge apart from the Institute and BoS.

valium said:
when I get a new settlement, I build turrets.

in areas where I am fairly certain the enemy is going to come from.

I am 60 hours in, and I have only been attacked 3 times, so I am guessing the defense rating is effecting how often you are going to be attacked.

1 of those 3 was actually from a random encounter right outside of the drive-in, where it was 2 deathclaws attacking each other. a bug or something happened, and when I noticed the event, the deathclaws immediately stopped what they were doing, and ran right for the settlement (no, nothing in the settlement attacked the deathclaws.) but like I said, I build turrets, and the 2 deathclaws were then attacked by about 10 turrets. not a finger was laid on a settler, but now I have a red glowing ash pile in the middle of my crops that wont go away.
I've read somewhere that, to have attacks on settlements be more rare, you need to have as much/more defense as food + water combined. Not sure if it's true, but I've been doing it like that and so far I've only had 1 attack in about 10 hours of playing. (Counting from when I actually started to get a few settlements. I have 4 or 5 with stuff in them at the moment.)
 

Odbarc

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Jun 30, 2010
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sanquin said:
I think we see we were in the army. As for a job, maybe we were an engineer? Or there's blueprints? Or we just have basic mechanical skills (everyone has in 2077?) and we just repair the tech that survived.

Plus I believe Fallout 1 and 2, the Broodhood basically went around in Power Armor and killed everything that had tech and horded it for themselves. They were the main antagonists. Anything of pre-war era was taken and kept.

After the 10 years and the vaults started to open, everyone being tormented by the Vault-Tec research, people were driven insane and released into the world. Destroyed. They had to constantly keep moving. There probably wasn't feasible to settle down because you'd quickly run out of food. Everyone would be in a fevered rush to find food and temporary shelter and everyone had a gun and nobody had enough to go around.
Things may have been a lot worse in this time. I think the idea is that no one really survived the bombs who aren't Ghouls or in some kind of shelter.

Maybe it's the settlers who are building these turrets and walls and such and for game purposes, it's just placed instantly.
Even though it's the future everything seems to be a half century behind us aesthetically. Technology went the route of Atomic influence. Maybe it's just a lot easier to repair, hack, pick and build things with resources of 'atomic' influence.

The least realistic thing I found so far would be Billy the Ghoul.
 

Mylinkay Asdara

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Nov 28, 2010
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Odbarc said:
The problem with 'everyone else' and 'raiders' is that there are SO many Raiders. It's like 90% of the human population. Or maybe even higher. Imagine playing Fallout and every person you came across took all your caps and equipment.
Suddenly Ghouls attack you but your too hungry to effectively fight back. You almost die. Then Super Mutants kidnap all your friends and eat and mutilate them. You feel sick but it's just radiation.

Then some guy in a blue unitard comes along and kills everything and says, "I've got a bed, food, clean water, walls, allies and television. No rent." Plus s/he's pre-war pretty and suddenly you notice another Raider/Super Mutant/Ghoul ruining all that he's made for himself and shared with everyone else. Do you say nothing or go to the 'solves every problem' Mayor 'Never-teach-a-man-to-fish'?

The chances are there's probably a lot of in-house slavery within Raider camps. You are either the leader who killed the previous leader who killed people to prevent people from killing him back or his/her slave bid to create or defend his fort so you can raid for resources to maintain dominance and not get killed by your own 'family'.

There isn't really a "new source of... [blank]" in the Fallout universe. It's just constantly passing around items based on moment to moment needs. Everything is run down. No one knows how to make something and if you did someone would break it or steal it immediately. People have nothing or next to nothing all the time. They're basically cavemen with laser guns.
And as the wo/man out of time, it's pretty fun to run around and being one of the few and only people in the world that knows what things were, why they were, what they did and do and how to manage and manipulate the world around them.
You can be sure no one is (really) educated like a school. You learn to shoot and that's about it. It's been a long time and people have 'figured out' the most basic of basics like making shelter in the crudest forms with the scraps that are lying around in the ruin and probably accidentally found out how to create food or medicine.


And the lore is pretty neat too.
I think 90% of the population is probably way too high an estimate, but I get the concept of what you're trying to put across here. Life in the Boston area is, however, considerably less harsh than other Fallout environments seemingly. They have actual wood - from trees - for one big noticeable thing right off the top of my head. The quality of "Junk" as well is much higher comparative to other game settings. We're pulling out elements like Copper, Silver, Aluminum, and Plastic out of them on the regular, and other people are too - otherwise those "Shipment of X Junk Item" wouldn't be up for barter at ever vendor. They've figured out a great deal more than you're giving them credit for - given the state of some of the actual settlements that exist, including Diamond City, which has full power, lighting, lifts, etc. I'm not seeing any evidence that they have running water, but shy of that things seem to be able to be arranged with some effort.

I realize that traditionally not having new sources of materials has been the norm, but that's being somewhat undermined by this game I think in terms of how much raw material is not just coming from scavenging stuff, but also seeing that there ARE trees here to cut down and turn into boards, with saws that we do have aplenty and there are rock quarries to be mined for basic stone, which we do have the shovels and picks and so on to do just lying around - finally, it seems, being picked up.... by Raiders for some reason I don't understand.

Also - there are people who are still "really" educated like a school in small pockets. Followers of the Apocalypse do that, some Vaults that didn't go insane do that, there are other examples of where education does continue and people are aware enough of things like math and science to measure out and administer medicine and set bones and so forth - Wasteland doctors, NCR medics, etc. etc.

Odbarc said:
I think we see we were in the army. As for a job, maybe we were an engineer? Or there's blueprints? Or we just have basic mechanical skills (everyone has in 2077?) and we just repair the tech that survived.
The male PC was in the military in some capacity; the female PC, his wife, was a lawyer. I would say that we would have a better general understanding of "how tech works" because we lived in a time when it was ubiquitous -- but so to do we live in a time as players where everyone has a basic understanding of how a cell phone or a microwave works because everyone has a cell phone and a microwave (in some areas of the world), but I couldn't repair or make a cell phone or a microwave by that knowledge.

Then again, it'd be a poor crafting system if we were too ignorant of how to craft to use it, so I think that's just gameplay demanding that some suspension of disbelief occur for the sake of the systems.

sanquin said:
I've read somewhere that, to have attacks on settlements be more rare, you need to have as much/more defense as food + water combined. Not sure if it's true, but I've been doing it like that and so far I've only had 1 attack in about 10 hours of playing. (Counting from when I actually started to get a few settlements. I have 4 or 5 with stuff in them at the moment.)
Yes, I've gotten most of my settlements to more defense than resources and that seems to have helped, but I still have a few I need to get up to snuff. I think I was getting attacked so often because I had so many settlements at once all just coming up together. It's still a pain, but it's a bit more manageable now. I did ignore an attack or two as well, so maybe they just aren't calling me as much. I had to stop caring a bit, it was driving me to dislike the game to keep on top of the settlement thing that got out of hand in how many and how much they needed too quickly on me.
 

sXeth

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Nov 15, 2012
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Mylinkay Asdara said:
Additionally - just going to put this here since it's here... when I clicked "Sarcastic" my character said the following: "My secret club catch phrase only has 2 words: Awesome and Me" and I had to re-load because it was so painfully painfully stupid for her to say at that point in time that I just can't be that person.

Back to what we were talking about: I haven't put anything of gear or weapons on to the Settlers myself, since that seems incredibly cumbersome even as an idea with 150 of them to manage. Does it help significantly or is it just a way of kicking up the idea of "I'm helping these people" for our pretend mental games?
It helps separate the ones you've already assigned out from newcomers. I guess they're slightly more combat effectiv,e but the NPCs barely fight each other, and certainly without much effect that I've seen. Even companions, who should be drastically more effective, don't offer much when idling at a settlement during a raid.

That said, in my second playthrough, attacks are almost non-existent since I've learned to limit production a bit more with planning farms, that you need 2x(Water+Food) Defense, and acquiring settlements a little more gradually then my prior run that was just kind of running whatever mission I had and picking them up at random.