We need different nouns for gender and sex

[Dizchu]

As someone that has postgenderist ideals, what I'd personally want is for gender as a concept to be wiped out.

To me, saying that men are more likely to like fast cars and bodybuilding and women are more likely to like shoes and makeup is like saying black people are more likely to listen to hip-hop and play basketball. It's based on a generalisation.

In my utopic world segregation based on sex would be like segregation based on race. Having a penis or a vagina would be like having different skin colours. Sure certain facilities and products would be cater to those with certain genitalia or skin, but that'd be about it.

And before someone has a go at me for "making everyone a featureless blob", remember that this is how many people have treated race in the past (and still do). "We can't have whites and blacks mixing because we'd lose our cultural identities". I don't care. I want everyone to be comfortable being who they want to be (if it's not harmful to others).

But that's just me and my crazy views. I don't expect anyone to agree, postgenderism is pretty radical (and I'm not saying that it's objectively right either, it might be a load of bullshit).

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

And before someone has a go at me for "making everyone a featureless blob", remember that this is how many people have treated race in the past (and still do). "We can't have whites and blacks mixing because we'd lose our cultural identities". I don't care. I want everyone to be comfortable being who they want to be (if it's not harmful to others).

If everyone were the same, would they find other ways to discriminate against each other?

 

[Dizchu]

If everyone were the same, would they find other ways to discriminate against each other?

It's not necessarily about making everyone the same, but about removing unnecessary divisions that do more harm than good.

But you have a good point, people will always find ways to be dicks to each other.

 

[DoPo]

If everyone were the same, would they find other ways to discriminate against each other?

It's not necessarily about making everyone the same, but about removing unnecessary divisions that do more harm than good.

But you have a good point, people will always find ways to be dicks to each other.

As the old joke goes:

In the future, a drastic measure against racism was taken - all people were painted green. But on the first day, a bus broke down in the middle of nowhere. The driver thought for a moment, then turned to the passengers and said "OK, everyone who is dark green - get out and push".

 

[GrumbleGrump]

I... Really don't think it's necesary at this point. People's gender is something I categorize under the "not my fucking problem" filing cabinet I have in my brain. People's sexuality is also in that cabinet.

This is the perfect setup to quote Jerome K. Jerome whose writing I love and I never really had the opportunity to quote

There are various methods by which you may achieve ignominy and shame. By murdering a large and respected family in cold blood and afterward depositing their bodies in the water companies' reservoir, you will gain much unpopularity in the neighborhood of your crime, and even robbing a church will get you cordially disliked, especially by the vicar. But if you desire to drain to the dregs the fullest cup of scorn and hatred that a fellow human creature can pour out for you, let a young mother hear you call dear baby "it."

Oh god, I've never even heard of him and I already love him.

Spoiler: Also...

A hundred posts achieved!

 

[FirstNameLastName]

As someone that has postgenderist ideals, what I'd personally want is for gender as a concept to be wiped out.

To me, saying that men are more likely to like fast cars and bodybuilding and women are more likely to like shoes and makeup is like saying black people are more likely to listen to hip-hop and play basketball. It's based on a generalisation.

In my utopic world segregation based on sex would be like segregation based on race. Having a penis or a vagina would be like having different skin colours. Sure certain facilities and products would be cater to those with certain genitalia or skin, but that'd be about it.

And before someone has a go at me for "making everyone a featureless blob", remember that this is how many people have treated race in the past (and still do). "We can't have whites and blacks mixing because we'd lose our cultural identities". I don't care. I want everyone to be comfortable being who they want to be (if it's not harmful to others).

But that's just me and my crazy views. I don't expect anyone to agree, postgenderism is pretty radical (and I'm not saying that it's objectively right either, it might be a load of bullshit).

While I'm sure that sounds like a really lovely idea, I very highly doubt we will ever find ourselves in a situation in which ~50% of the population has one set of reproductive organs, ~50% has a different set and slight physiological differences, yet we have no form of label to differentiate the two.

With the vast majority of people being cisgendered, the idea of gender isn't going away any time soon just because a minority of a minority don't comfortably fit within it. Definitions are set by the majority. It may not be what people want to hear, but it's true.

 

[lacktheknack]

EDIT: Edited because I missed the point by a country mile.

Anyways, naw. You'd have to get a significant number of people on board to make this happen... which you won't.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

I hate to be that guy on this one; but we should not be giving into the wants/demands of a group of people who are very clearly suffering from a mental illness, no more than we would give into someone suffering from any other kind of delusion, hallucination or misconception about themselves or the world around them.

The current system is just fine; it is accurate and useful for the vast, overwhelming majority of humanity (well over 90%) and we don't need to go changing it/modifying for a very small, not-at-all-typical or normal minority just because the current system isn't sensitive their delusions.

And lets not mince words or ideas here; transgender people suffer from a textbook delusion. They don't need a special word made up for them; they need mental help, therapy and medication to help them deal with and cope with their delusions and issues stemming from it. We don't cater to people who think they're cats or Jesus Christ; why should people who believe they are a sex they are not be any different from them?

Foreigners already HATE English because we have such a shitty system for gender/sex in our language as it is anyway; I don't think this would make it any better.

Whoooshhh

That's the sound the flames made as the gasoline was poured over them.

I have a feeling this thread just became significantly more interesting.

 

[mad825]

As someone that has postgenderist ideals, what I'd personally want is for gender as a concept to be wiped out.

A ideal which are based on facts yet to be discovered.

Assuming gender is a result of physiological development then postgenderism is unachievable. Assuming that Transhumanism will end discrimination is another idealistic dream.

Even so, such technological advancement would make having a penis or a vagina redundant when you could just grow a baby inside a box...You could also turn it into an assembly line.

Such things would be the death of humanity, genus and the whole tree of evolution. Traits from our ancestors still exists whether you like it or not

 

[DoPo]

Oh god, I've never even heard of him and I already love him.

I recommend reading Three Men in a Boat (To Say Nothing of the Dog) - it's a classic of his. You can actually find it here [http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/308] if you don't mind reading it in electronic format.

 

[Magmarock]

No I don't agree with this. While it is true that english does have gender identifying words such as "he" "she" which come from the french part of english. I don't think a language should be changed because someone doesn't personally identify as a gender that isn't part of the language. That being said and I only speak for myself hear, I always consider gender as part of your physical identity. For example. I don't call myself male because that's how I identify I call myself male because I have a male body with male chromosomes.

 

[Silvanus]

textbook delusion.

You're arguing against the scientific consensus. Don't imagine otherwise.

 

[Dizchu]

As someone that has postgenderist ideals, what I'd personally want is for gender as a concept to be wiped out.

A ideal which are based on facts yet to be discovered.

Assuming gender is a result of physiological development then postgenderism is unachievable. Assuming that Transhumanism will end discrimination is another idealistic dream.

The ideal is based on the fact that gender as a line of division causes a lot of unnecessary harm. This goes beyond discrimination, people assume things about men and women based on their gender and it shapes societal attitudes. It causes a commodification of the opposite sex (see ideas like "the friendzone" and "gay best friend").

Yeah maybe it's unachievable. It certainly won't end discrimination entirely. But I don't think that's a valid reason not to have a push for a more thorough integration of male and female, and I don't mean in the weird religious "men and women compliment each other" way. I mean isn't it strange that we refer to a person's gender almost constantly with the use of pronouns?

Again, I don't expect anyone to agree with me. I don't even expect postgenderism to be the perfect solution. But it's what I base my worldview and ethical standards on (which is why I am equally critical of MRAs and feminists).

And lets not mince words or ideas here; transgender people suffer from a textbook delusion. They don't need a special word made up for them; they need mental help, therapy and medication to help them deal with and cope with their delusions and issues stemming from it.

Replace "transgender people" with "amputees". Amputees that wish they could be treated like normal human beings are deluded! Instead of making other people have to deal with their missing limbs and getting surgery/prosthetics to "pretend" to be able-bodied, they just need mental help!

Look, with transgender people there are often two solutions. Transition or suicide. Calling transgenderism a delusion is like calling homosexuality a delusion because "most people are straight".

We don't cater to people who think they're cats or Jesus Christ; why should people who believe they are a sex they are not be any different from them?

I dealt with this exact same argument a few days ago. How the hell is gender dysphoria comparable to wanting to be a member of an entirely different species? Once humans can successfully transition into cats in the same way biological males can transition into females maybe this argument will hold water. But as I said last time, what you are doing is essentially saying that changing the wheels or repairing the engine of a car is the same as turning it into a skateboard.

 

[Phlap]

Why would anyone want to overcomplicate the issue just for the sake of overcomplicating it?

If you're male-to-female trans, you're a woman.

If you're female-to-male trans, you're a man.

I'm not going to start using your stupid tumblr pronouns, that's where I draw my line.

 

[False Messiah]

Why would anyone want to overcomplicate the issue just for the sake of overcomplicating it?

If you're male-to-female trans, you're a woman.

If you're female-to-male trans, you're a man.

I'm not going to start using your stupid tumblr pronouns, that's where I draw my line.

Not only did you not read my opening post right, but you also have not read the rest of the thread where I've stated, multiple times mind you, that I did not say we need more PRO-nouns. Even mixing up the gender and sex nouns in your example tell me that you did not actually get the question.

That being said, I agree with your post none the less.

 

[Erttheking]

People are still throwing fits over the idea of being gender fluid or sexuality that can't be neatly defined as hetero, homo, bi. People will most certainly throw fits over new nouns.

 

[Phlap]

The thing you said.

I wasn't necessarily trying to put forth a rebuttal as much as I was making my stance on the issue known.

To actually answer the question you asked, I think it'd be like asking people to start remembering the difference between who and whom. I think using both terms more or less interchangeably is the way things are going to stay. I doubt the vast majority of people think there's even a difference between the terms. (I think gender refers more to someone's gender identity, whereas sex is more of a strictly biological term, but even then I'm not 100% sure.)

 

[Loonyyy]

I hate to be that guy on this one; but we should not be giving into the wants/demands of a group of people who are very clearly suffering from a mental illness,

I love to be that guy. You don't know enough about mental illness to say this. In fact, the relevant experts explicitly disagree with your judgement, and that your judgement directly contributes to one of the worst possible outcomes of mental illness: suicide.

Your personal distaste for trans people has nothing to do with any medical judgement of their condition, and it's high time to stop hiding behind "science" and either reference the consensus and change your view, or stand on your own two feet.