#WeWantWidow - Maybe We Shouldn't?

[Mikeybb]

I was passively happy with the idea of a Black Widow movie after her appearances in the other titles.

Thinking more about it, It could work very well indeed.

Imagine a situation where the character, due to a threat that requires a less overt response, has to take up those skills she's been glad to leave behind while she worked with the larger than life heroes.
The skillset that led to her work with Fury.
All those things she did that made her utter the line "I'm a monster" with absolute conviction and despite all the people she'd helped since joining the Avengers.

Maybe she has to infiltrate this new group responsible for the threat.
Perhaps it could be the serpent society who, I think, were meant to turn up in a Cap movie but got bumped.
To do this, she'd have to seem to turn on the Avengers and ally herself with them.
Betray them from within.
Of course, only Fury would know the truth.
That wouldn't make it any easier having to drag up that dark side she's been able to bury, however shallowly, under her more recent heroics.
Nor would it make seeing the look of betrayal on her comrades faces as she played out this role of double agent.

Lets see some more of the red room graduate Widow who she's been trying to leave behind, even if we know as the viewer she's conflicted about reliving that.
Lets see her struggle with the history she has and, in victory, wonder if she can truly ever bury that ruthless element of herself.

This is all just throwing around ideas and in no way connected to anything that has been said about the movie plan, if indeed there is one.
I'm just trying to establish that there is a lot of room for an agent/spy like character in the Marvel cinematic universe, stories for them to engage with and in particular, the Widow has some interesting areas to explore that could shine as the focus of the story rather than being just part of the backdrop to a larger event.


Also, if we do see Widow get a movie, I may just one day get my Monica Rambeau movie.
That's my real goal here, I've got to be honest.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

No, bugger it, I want Widow.

I'd especially love a prequel that sees her getting recruited to SHIELD.
I'm looking forward to Captain Marvel, but when someone says `oh maybe we shouldn't` to a female led superhero film, just pfffffffffffft.
Yeah, we should.

If fucking Ant-Man gets a movie, let's do it.

Spoiler: Who wouldn't want this?

God, that trailer is dope as hell. Easily would watch.

 

[ForumSafari]

Look, I'd love a female-led Marvel movie. BUt in y experience, people who clamour for a Widow movie are more eager about the female protagonist-thing than about getting Widow specifically. If it'd been someone else who was the Avengers one woman on the team, they would have been equally eager about her.

You know why some people said that Lucy was like a Black Widow movie? It's because Widow is so far from unique that you can make a Black Widow movie without even trying.

Not to mention that a movie about her would be a superhero movie about a person who isn't really a superhero. Can be done well, sure, but it's not an ideal basis for a movie.

I'm sure some people are just huge Widow fans, but for the most part, I'd say it's more about giving the female character more attention than about interest in Natasha specifically. Which is why I'd rather see a movie about a superheroine that haven't been in the MCU until now. That way we'd get more heroines, while at the same time getting us a character who's genuinely interesting.

I can definitely agree with all of this. I don't think she's particularly interesting nor do I think people want her in the film so much as her reproductive organs and only then to make a point.

If I had to pick one Marvel female superhero for a solo film it'd be Mystique. You could get a great infiltration film out of that, or a stunning prison break to set up a team of big-bads.

 

[Angelblaze]

Part of the problem is she's not that good a superhero.

I heard of all the crazyness about the recent movie. Then I went and saw it. I couldn't understand what on earth people were raging about. She played as big a role as the rest of them and just as big as in the first film. And the reports that she was like being a slut working her way between the characters was nonsense. Who came up with that crap?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jeremy+renner+calls+black+widow

Any of the videos displayed should be enough information but basic breakdown; Jeremy Rennder and Chris Evans 'jokingly' called Black Widow a 'slut' and a 'whore'.
--

OT: I've given up on the MCU, as a woman, feminist, fangirl and person that honestly wanted a Black Widow movie. At this point, I'm only going to go to a Marvel movie to go see Loki. Nothing else. Thanks for ruining it Marvel.

Quick edit before someone tries to shove themselves up my ass: The main reason I'm stepping out of the MCU is the outright failure of many different parts of the films.

In Captain America: Winter Soldier they could've had that old woman be Yelena. Nope. Black Widow wearing a mask. They might as well have shoved a banana up Chris Evan's ass and given it to me, it seemed so shitty.

In A:AOU they could've had made the 'connection' more subtle and then had Black Widow be the next Hulk movie, perhaps explored both characters more deeply as they both try to escape the watchful eye of shield. (Which would be very reluctant to let Banner or Romanov quit their jobs, even if it is emotionally damaging).

In the entire universe, they could make a villain other then Loki interesting but we're currently having monster of the week syndrome with these films.

 

[Tilly]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jeremy+renner+calls+black+widow

Any of the videos displayed should be enough information but basic breakdown; Jeremy Rennder and Chris Evans 'jokingly' called Black Widow a 'slut' and a 'whore'.
--

Oh right, was it purely because of that reaction from Renner? I thought it was part of the criticisms of her character in the movie. Which, like I said, I didn't see any merit for at all. She did just as much as the rest of them.

 

[Angelblaze]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jeremy+renner+calls+black+widow

Any of the videos displayed should be enough information but basic breakdown; Jeremy Rennder and Chris Evans 'jokingly' called Black Widow a 'slut' and a 'whore'.
--

Oh right, was it purely because of that reaction from Renner? I thought it was part of the criticisms of her character in the movie. Which, like I said, I didn't see any merit for at all. She did just as much as the rest of them.

Meh, female characters (when there are only a few of them in the main cast in comparison with the male characters) have heavy double standards put on their shoulders. She needs to sluttier and more independant, she needs to be innocent and pure, she needs this and that and the third because she's basically the only woman in the series and henceforth needs to represent all of us.

I'd say that Jeremy's was the inciting incident, then people who agreed/wanted to start obnoxious conversations attempted to use the movie to try and previously justify what Renner said.

 

[BytByte]

They could possibly pull a Mad Max: Fury Road and make her the title character but not protagonist of the film. Just as long as its not an origin story. It could also be much more heavily espionage based than action based because she would have even less of a reason to wait til the climax to pull out her blue fists of death.

 

[Tilly]

Meh, female characters (when there are only a few of them in the main cast in comparison with the male characters) have heavy double standards put on their shoulders. She needs to sluttier and more independant, she needs to be innocent and pure, she needs this and that and the third because she's basically the only woman in the series and henceforth needs to represent all of us.

Well part of the problem is the source material. These are all coming from comic books that were overwhelmingly written for young boys. I doubt Joss Whedon had much power to just randomly stick a new female superhero in there.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I think if they pursue a Black Widow film, she'll be sharing the lead role with Hawkeye since to me the most obvious choice to is to explore the Budapest Incident they refer to when fighting the Chitauri.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

As a minority, I was a leading Black male character movie as well.

But I'm not going to settle on Falcon, no matter how 'well' he was portrayed in the Winter Soldier.

The Black Widow has always just been an interesting character. She never felt like a headliner. There are many different options.

One of the best I think would be Namorita. A genuinely powerful superhero who could VERY WELL PLAY into the climatic Civil War movie.

 

[Darks63]

We already know what it would look like

I think if they pursue a Black Widow film, she'll be sharing the lead role with Hawkeye since to me the most obvious choice to is to explore the Budapest Incident they refer to when fighting the Chitauri.

I dunno that might end up being a Bourne movie as written by Joss Whedon which sounds kinda like a unholy union to me.

 

[Evonisia]

They could possibly pull a Mad Max: Fury Road and make her the title character but not protagonist of the film. Just as long as its not an origin story. It could also be much more heavily espionage based than action based because she would have even less of a reason to wait til the climax to pull out her blue fists of death.

This seems like Winter Soldier to me. Until the final climax, it really feels more like Black Widow's movie even though it's called Captain America and has the titular character as the protagonist.

 

[Erttheking]

I guess I'm one of the twelve people who actually thinks it would be interesting. I mean Winter Soldier showed me that Marvel can do the espionage and spy thriller thing pretty damn well.

 

[FPLOON]

This thread is reminding me of something I said responded to in another thread Black Widow-related:

Just a question, how many people here would settle on a Hawkeye/Black Widow miniseries? I certainly would. It'd be cheaper since its not open-ended like Agents of SHIELD or Agent Carter, and its three years until the next Avengers film, and its unlikely that they'll show up in anything but Civil War[footnote]To my knowledge, there's nothing to indicate that they're in Ant-Man and I highly doubt that they'll fit into Doctor Strange. The others won't take place on Earth.[/footnote] so unless they feature heavily there, we'll see not much of either of them until two months before Captain Marvel is set to release. The reason Hulk has gotten away with more or less ignoring the Hulk film that was included in the MCU while not having another is that he was already a mainstream character far before the MCU existed, unlike Iron-Man or Doctor Strange.

As long as it gives more backstory/context to this particular moment in The Avengers:Then bring on the miniseries!

Basically, the only way that I can think of where a "stand-alone" Black Widow movie would takes place in would be in the past, in Budapest, and with Hawkeye being the main cameo throughout the whole film giving two perspectives on the same event... I'm sure some directors can pull this off effectively, but I still feel like it would work best as a mini-series probably shorter than what Agent Carter was originally suppose to be...

Anyway, at this point, I don't care about the MCU's [potential] flaws in general... I'm mostly in this for the world-building and if a Black Widow movie can do that AND more, then shut up and take my vibranium, Marvel! You know you want to...

 

[Angelblaze]

Meh, female characters (when there are only a few of them in the main cast in comparison with the male characters) have heavy double standards put on their shoulders. She needs to sluttier and more independant, she needs to be innocent and pure, she needs this and that and the third because she's basically the only woman in the series and henceforth needs to represent all of us.

Well part of the problem is the source material. These are all coming from comic books that were overwhelmingly written for young boys. I doubt Joss Whedon had much power to just randomly stick a new female superhero in there.

I disagree, not because Joss doesn't have the power to intervene, rather he (and other directors because Joss is not the only person to blame in this) didn't use that power.

Spoiler for 'angry fanfiction author' levels of stupid, pretentious writer anger.

Spoiler

There's a scene in Winter soldier - and I hate this movie because it lost so many opportunities - where Falcon is talking to some veterans and ex-air pilots. No reason Carol couldn't have been in there. Just a quick name drop from Falcon. Unless she's his old teammate, in which case okay.)

And, later on in the climax, Natasha pretends to be an older woman using some fake-face technology that, to me, seems pretty 'last second thrown in'. There's no reason they couldn't have used that moment to justify Yelena's existence in the MCU.

Just,
The soldiers get their ass kicked.
Bad guy says 'Oh Yelena, *insert patronizing evil stuff that doesn't change the original plot here*'
Show Black Widow outside near the entrance holding the position in front of the door because there is no reason why there AREN'T more people in that building.
Frankly, I would've had that scene and had someone like Sigourney Weaver play that part.

Then, for the scene of Black Widow x Hulk, remove that stuff and put in kind of talking without the blatantly sexual text. Save that for the next Hulk movie, in which Banner attempts to escape Shield, gets caught and is now permanently kept within the bowels of an underground shield location/laboratory, never allowed out even for sunlight, only to be busted out by a mysterious assistant (Widow, obviously). Before Nat fakes her death once again to escape the few remaining Hydra making attempts on her life. There after causing Banner to Hulk out and go on a cross country rampage taking out shield locations all across the country while Nat does a little 'Shield spring cleaning' and takes out more Hydra, digs out more of her past and has to deal with units specifically meant to take out the Hulk, because she also wants to protect banner while keeping Shield together.

Instead of basically telling us they love each other, show us. This is writing 102 Marvel. Sex is not love. Dedication, sacrifice and contact are what make up the tenets of a good relationship; give them that first before you start with the relationships.

....This post is longer then I thought it'd be.

Also, see post above me. That's some good shit right there.

 

[Callate]

I think one could make a good Black Widow movie. Maybe a great one. Whether there's the will and the interest to make that movie is another question. I'd be a little concerned that any movie spurred on by a hashtag campaign is a) likely to get short shrift from the people in power who felt unduly pressured to find a place for it in the roster and b) likely to receive an excessive amount of critical scrutiny both from those who campaigned for it and those who resent the manner of its conception, both of whom would probably look for any flaw to pick apart.

If it did come about, it would have to work to forge a very different identity from the most recent Captain America movie. If it was up to me, I would be inclined pit BW against a super-powered foe. While she's clearly an exceptional combatant at the non-metahuman level in the Marvel Universe, her abilities in misdirection and infiltration mark her as distinctly different from Cap; a really well-executed movie in which she won by playing smart and not fighting fair- almost a caper movie- would be more interesting to watch than a protracted series of fight scenes.

I quite like what Johansson has done with the character; I'd like to see her in a good Black Widow movie. I'm just not sure the climate of perpetual aggravation right now is the best setting for such a movie to come to fruition.

 

[Rastrelly]

So for those of you not in the loop, there has been a hashtag going around for a while by the handle of #WeWantWidow in order to show support for a Black Widow only/center movie. And while I would still love another MU Marvel piece...I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a moment.

I don't think Black Widow would do as well in her own movie, nor should she get one. Why? The two big reasons are;

1: Black Widow is better off being mysterious. We get little bits and pieces of her story, glimpses here and there in the movies and in shows like Agent Carter. They're tantalizing, and keep us interested in her. However, and actual movie about her would need to be on the level of Iron Man 2 or The First Avenger or The Winter Soldier; we'd have to learn and see a lot more about her ruining a huge chunk of that mystery which is pretty integral to her character.

2: Black Widow really, really plays well off other characters - most specifically, Captain America, Nick Fury and Iron Man. She is like Hawkeye in that regard; an anchor, a weight and a balance for the team. She, like Hawkeye, is a mere normal among super soldiers, geniuses and gods and seeing her perform among them is amazing.

Its also among them that she seems relatively normal and relate-able. Separate her from them and imagine her for a second - she goes pretty quickly from "Hero" to "Sociopath in a catsuit hired by the good guys". Without anyone around her, I'm not sure she could come off nearly half as awesome and likable as she does when she has the Captain and Iron Man to bat around.

I see nothing bad in a movie with a nice lady in a tight outfit making espionage-ey things and from time to time kicking arses. You need not make her less mysterious or destroy established character. An interesting story can revolve not around protagonist, this is what Hollywood seems to forget these days. Protagonist can be an observer, or explorer, someone from outside, just like the viewer. You have to remove your character-centric goggles (not you personally, the whole movie industry I mean) and start thinking in broader categories.

 

[AwesomeHatMan]

My problems with the current Black Widow (coming from someone who isn't a die-hard Marvel fan but is reasonably familiar with the characters) is that she wasn't ruthless enough. When I imagine Black Widow fighting someone I don't imagine ridiculous flip round move, I imagine her either quickly dodging, perhaps dislocating one or more of her enemy's joints and then knocking them out with one precise kick/punch/elbow or, when lethal force is permitted, just stone-cold shooting them dead. I mean it's been pretty good but not quite as efficient as I imagine her being/they seem to chuck in big flashy stuff from time to time just to look "cool". As for her emotional state, she's been through traumatic stuff, but I want her to be so bad-ass she isn't even bothered by it anymore. Like "oh, bad guys tried to strip me of my humanity and I've been trained to murder people without blinking? Yeah, I got over that years ago. What's my mission?", where any vulnerability she shows is just to manipulate those around her. Problem is this sort of character is not very family movie friendly.

In terms of a Hulk 3 movie where she's running away with Hulk like someone else suggested. Yeah, I could see that, but as I imagine her, she would pretend, with such dedication that it'd happen, to be in love with Banner for years and betray SHIELD and run away with him (under Fury's orders the whole time) just so she can drag him back to the team when the time is right even if it means breaking Banner's heart/ruining his life. As in you have no idea that she's putting it on until a post credits scene where you see her in a call with Fury.

In other words, currently she says she feels like a monster. I want her to be that monster. The sort of monster who would kill Captain America and live in exile, on the run from SHIELD, for the rest of her life if Fury asked that of her for the greater good. I want Black Widow to be scary with a bad-ass level akin to that of the Boss from Metal Gear. That character probably isn't the best main character for a movie, but is a damn good secondary one.