What Brutal Legend was supposed to play like.

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With the topic about Brutal Legend compared to Sacrifice, I've noticed people bringing up the usual complaints about "the game was too hard to control!" and "you can't effectively micromanage, the controls are shit!" and "the 'RTS bits' were just a slog where you have to make the same troops over and over until you win!"

And while these complaints are all entirely valid, it's not because the game is bad: it's because it did an awful job of explaining how it was supposed to be played.

Simply put: it was not meant to be played as though it was an RTS. The controls were designed to work perfectly with the intended playstyle, which was moving your troops in a quick and simple manner while spending 90% of your time hacking and slashing enemies, using double team attacks with your troops, or playing guitar solos.

It wasn't meant to be played like a traditional RTS, flying high above the battle the whole time as though you're a mouse cursor, and directing troops from above without ever touching the ground.

If you're interested, here's a video of what the game was supposed to be played like:


Basically the problem was that the marketing of the game, along with the general structure of it, didn't inform players that all the hacking and slashing missions, the car stuff, the double team attacks (like using the mosh pit, or the stun attack on Lemmy's bike), the solos like battle cry and facemelter - these were tools which were gradually being added to your belt, with the stage battles being the points where they could be freely used in any way you wanted.

So when the first battle came up, it felt like it was just a 'RTS mission', instead of the reality of it being an all-out 'everything' action mission.

So basically: having watched the video, does that look any different from what you remember the game being like? Does it look better? Worse? Do you see my point?
 

DioWallachia

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Again, blame EA for HIDING the RTS elements on a RTS FOCUSED GAME on its marketing. So, once again, we can add Brutal Legend to the enourmous pile of victims that EA killed by sheer incompetence.

Help to update the list here fellows:
ULTIMA IX
BRUTAL LEGEND
DRAGON AGE 2
MASS EFFECT 3
DEAD SPACE 3 (dissapointmend coming soon at :D )

Anyway, in theory, both Sacrifice AND Brutal Legend didnt explain the diferences or priorities of the creatures too, even in their single players campaings. At best we knew that it worked in a rock-paper-scisors kind of way but not so much explanation on things later in the game. Like the diferences between the sub classes that ranged-flyer-melee had:

Bug: Ranged units that each god receives at level two and have a side-effect
on their attack that is usually more important than the damage. Bug units
cost two souls.

Brawler (second-tier melee): Brawlers are the improved melee units over the
basic melee, and cost 2 souls each. Brawlers are slower than the basic melee
units.

Sniper (ranged): Ranged units that have fairly long range and a fast-moving
projectile that moves in a straight line or hits instantly. Sniper soul costs
vary between gods.

Bomber (flyer): Bombers are flying units that attack not at range but
hand-to-hand for a good amount of damage. They make good hit and run units
(especially against manaliths) since they have high damage output and can fly
over terrain obstacles. The name 'bomber' comes from the fact that all of
these units have a creature ability that shoots something at other units
(usually on the ground since these abilities can be inaccurate). I usually
don't use bombers in my central fighting groups since they are large and,
since they attack hand-to-hand, get in the way of my ranged units and
each other. Soul cost varies between gods.

Artillery (ranged): The artillery units have a very long range, fire their
projectiles indirectly, and most have a large splash damage radius, just as
you would expect from artillery. Artillery are a bit inaccurate, but all have
an area effect. Soul cost varies between gods.

Heavy-hitter (non-flyer): The heavy-hitters are the units directly below the
best and cost 4 souls each. None of these creatures are flying, all have
special abilities, and all dish out damage.

Titan: Titans are the ultimate creature of each god and cost 5 souls each.
They can defeat any other type of creature one-on-one without exception. All
titans fly except for James' Rhinok, and most stand on the ground if idle for
a while.
 

Hero in a half shell

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DioWallachia said:
Again, blame EA for HIDING the RTS elements on a RTS FOCUSED GAME on its marketing. So, once again, we can add Brutal Legend to the enourmous pile of victims that EA killed by sheer incompetence.

Help to update the list here fellows:
ULTIMA IX
BRUTAL LEGEND
DRAGON AGE 2
MASS EFFECT 3
DEAD SPACE 3 (dissapointmend coming soon at :D )
Although EA bashing can get out of control feel free to add Command and Conquer 4 to that list.

They inherited one of the most popular RTS's ever, and managed to do pretty well with it for a while. The games were a mixed bag, each had their problems, but also their merits. Then some imbecile decided to completely remove the base building capacity from the entire game, which instantly tanked the game. They couldn't have done worse if they removed all the guns from a Doom game and just had you run away from every single enemy.

There is C&C generals 2 coming out at some point in the future though, so time will tell whether they actually realise what a hash they made of C&c4 or not.
 

random_bars

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DioWallachia said:
Again, blame EA for HIDING the RTS elements on a RTS FOCUSED GAME on its marketing. So, once again, we can add Brutal Legend to the enourmous pile of victims that EA killed by sheer incompetence.

Help to update the list here fellows:
ULTIMA IX
BRUTAL LEGEND
DRAGON AGE 2
MASS EFFECT 3
DEAD SPACE 3 (dissapointmend coming soon at :D )
Mirror's Edge and Spore are two more examples that come to mind. The former was good but obviously rushed, and really could've done without the shooty bits, and the latter... Well, just watch the 2005 E3 demo and weep for what could have been.
 

lapan

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DioWallachia said:
Again, blame EA for HIDING the RTS elements on a RTS FOCUSED GAME on its marketing. So, once again, we can add Brutal Legend to the enourmous pile of victims that EA killed by sheer incompetence.
The fact that it almost got killed off by it's old publisher didn't help either.
 

Smooth Operator

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Well the false marketing was it's first problem and the second was that RTS part is complete anus, that is simply not a well deigned gameplay feature and to have it as is at all would always go badly.

I really don't think there would be any simple fix because RTS on consoles was always shit, RTS in third person is horrible to control, and the guys who put it together had no clue what it actually takes to make a good RTS...
If they ever make a Brutal Legend 2 then I would cut the RTS completely, the funny open world action adventure parts worked really well but they just didn't follow it through, flesh that thing out and do a proper story then we could have one heck of a franchise.
 

Frostbite3789

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DioWallachia said:
Nevermind Brutal Legend never sees the light of day without EA. EA even went to court with Activision in order to have the game released. But because they marketed it wrong, better add it to the hate pile!
 

Loop Stricken

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Whilst I agree that Brutal Legend was not marketed appropriately I also agree that the RTS sections were the weakest part of the game.

Shame really. Superb voice-actors.
 

BrotherRool

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DioWallachia said:
Again, blame EA for HIDING the RTS elements on a RTS FOCUSED GAME on its marketing. So, once again, we can add Brutal Legend to the enourmous pile of victims that EA killed by sheer incompetence.
Quote from Double Fine
Caroline Esmurdoc COO of Double Fine said:
In the end, 83 developers, propped up by the patience and tolerance of their families and friends as well as by the profound support of Electronic Arts,
Citation
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132696/postmortem_double_fines_brutal_.php?page=6

I get that it's cool to hate EA, it's always been cool to hate EA and they've screwed up lots of stuff and others times developers have screwed stuff up and people blame it on the publishers. Heck EA destroyed companies in the 1990's, and they should've marketed this better.

But if the guys who made the game don't hate on EA, and actually praise EA for the support that EA gave them, what are we saying if we disagree with the people who made the game? I very much doubt that anyone in this particular thread has ever been a videogame publisher or had any experience with videogame publishing, but it's very easy to assume knowledge about it.

Anyway this article is very interesting and contains a list of reasons why Double Fine feel the game wasn't as awesome as it could have been and also the things they think did work, it's worth checking out :D
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132696/postmortem_double_fines_brutal_.php
 

random_bars

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Mr.K. said:
Well the false marketing was it's first problem and the second was that RTS part is complete anus, that is simply not a well deigned gameplay feature and to have it as is at all would always go badly.

I really don't think there would be any simple fix because RTS on consoles was always shit, RTS in third person is horrible to control, and the guys who put it together had no clue what it actually takes to make a good RTS...
If they ever make a Brutal Legend 2 then I would cut the RTS completely, the funny open world action adventure parts worked really well but they just didn't follow it through, flesh that thing out and do a proper story then we could have one heck of a franchise.
Why, exactly, was the 'RTS part' 'complete anus'? Did you actually read my first post, or watch the video? It wasn't meant to be played like an RTS. The battles worked great... When you played them right. The developers worked on the gameplay for a long, long time, making it great fun... For them, i.e. people who knew exactly what they were doing.

The problem of the game was not that it was bad, but that it was badly explained. I'm sure your experience of it was shitty, I'm not doubting that. Mine was too when I first played it. It took me a bit of a time to eventually work out how to play it in a way that's fun, but I eventually did and I can promise you, when played right the battles are really great and by far the best bit of the game.

Watch the video if you don't believe me. If after watching it through you're still convinced that the battle gameplay is 'fundamentally broken' or whatever else then fair enough... But you really can't make sweeping judgments on the objective quality of the gameplay from nothing but your own limited experiences in the game, especially a game like this where the gameplay is both complex and really badly explained.
 

OutcastBOS

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You can mainly blame the hideous marketing for that. According to Tim Shafer, the game was originally three times bigger, and it was cut down by Activison, whom Double Fine accused of trying to stifle it because of Guitar Hero (speaking from TV Tropes here, so I'm not an authority on this by any means.) But hey, I still <3 the game, and would love to see more. (the Fire Barons rule!)
 

DioWallachia

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BrotherRool said:
Frostbite3789 said:
DioWallachia said:
Nevermind Brutal Legend never sees the light of day without EA. EA even went to court with Activision in order to have the game released. But because they marketed it wrong, better add it to the hate pile!
Indeed, EA made possible to BL to exist.............and yet, it shoot itself in the foot by marketing it wrong. What was the point of waste millions to take a IP to avoid being brutally savaged by Activision.........only to do the same anyway??

EA takes 1 step foward and then does a 180º turn and runs like a maniac to the next abyssm of incompetence to jump into.
 

LisaB1138

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I was so disappointed by Brutal Legend. As a big Psychonauts fan, I was hoping for more. The concept was brilliant, but the RTS was not the gameplay the game needed.
 

random_bars

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TheKasp said:
Not the first time you try to defend it, huh?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.354392-A-question-to-those-who-felt-that-Brutal-Legend-turned-into-an-RTS-partway-through
If someone can explain to me why the gameplay as depicted in the video I posted is bad, then I'll gladly turn against the game and proclaim it a piece of shit.

If, however, people are just going to continue seeing the words 'Brutal Legend' in the title and coming in and posting, "Man, this game sucked because of the shitty RTS bits" without reading a single word I wrote, watching anything of the video I posted, or even really understanding the point of the topic at all, then I'll keep on trying in vain to get people to listen to me.
 

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LisaB1138 said:
I was so disappointed by Brutal Legend. As a big Psychonauts fan, I was hoping for more. The concept was brilliant, but the RTS was not the gameplay the game needed.
First of all - did you watch the video, or read the OP, or even read the topic title?

Secondly, how exactly is axe-swinging, hot-rod-driving, all-out heavy metal warfare not the absolute most fitting gameplay possible for a heavy metal themed game?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I fucken loved brutal legend and Im pissed off that all the reviews convinced me to wait so long before I finally got it, although now I'm annoyed that ea published it so it will never see a pc release or a sequel.
 

ohnoitsabear

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I loved Brutal Legend, and I thought that the gameplay worked really well. But, like I said in the previous Brutal Legend related thread, the game is much too short to fully explore all the aspects of its gameplay. This left the game feeling short and unfocused. If the game was longer, or if they hadn't had so many different gameplay ideas, it would have achieved greatness.

Even though EA and Activision can both be partially blamed for Brutal Legend not being as good as it could have been, I do think that Double Fine, even though I love them, has to take at least some of the blame. If they had designed it as a singleplayer game first, instead of multiplayer first like they did for much of Brutal Legend's development, the could have done more to make sure that the campaign explained everything thoroughly, and explored all of the aspects of the gameplay.

That said, even with its faults, Brutal Legend is still worth playing because of the writing, voice acting, and soundtrack.
 

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Buretsu said:
Near as I can tell, people aren't saying that the game is bad, just that it was advertised as a third person action game, but it turns out it's mostly an RTS with third person action elements.
As far as I can see, a lot of them are saying it's bad.

"Man, this was a good game. I didn't like the RTS bits at all, but I thought the game was good regardless."

There. Are we done yet, or do you want more people agreeing with you before you stop?
I'm not trying to get everyone to agree with me here. All I want are peoples' opinions on the game as played in the video I posted. I don't have a problem with people thinking it looks shit. What I do have a problem with is people who don't watch the video, don't read the topic, and instead just post the same usual complaints about the 'RTS bits' without even attempting to address the point of the thread.

Look, I'm not trying to make out that the game is perfect. It's not, there are numerous very valid complaints that could be made about it. But "the game stops being an action game and forces you to play a wannabe RTS for hours at a time" is not one of them, and that's what I'm trying to show with this topic. I just want people to stop thinking that their playthrough of a game is a definitive representation of how objectively good or bad it is, basically.