What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[ZiggyE]

I find the suggestion that anyone other than these SJWs has a victim mentality to be pretty amusing, since they're the ones trying to claim they're victimised all the time.

It isn't a victim mentality. I don't believe I'm a victim because I'm targeted by these people. Because they're thankfully irrelevant to pretty much everything.

Wait, now...in your last post, you spoke of them as a 'hate group' spreading 'lies' with an intention to 'control men', but now you're claiming that they're completely 'irrelevant.' If you're going to go to the trouble of propping up such a big, nasty scarecrow, you might want to leave it up for a little bit longer than ten minutes.

A group's intention and a group's ability to carry out that intention are two different...

I find the suggestion that anyone other than these SJWs has a victim mentality to be pretty amusing, since they're the ones trying to claim they're victimised all the time.

It isn't a victim mentality. I don't believe I'm a victim because I'm targeted by these people. Because they're thankfully irrelevant to pretty much everything.

Wait, now...in your last post, you spoke of them as a 'hate group' spreading 'lies' with an intention to 'control men', but now you're claiming that they're completely 'irrelevant.' If you're going to go to the trouble of propping up such a big, nasty scarecrow, you might want to leave it up for a little bit longer than ten minutes.

There are lots of hateful groups that are trying to do bad things that are completely irrelevant. I don't see how relevance relates to intention.

Thanks for saying it for me.

 

[KrystelCandy]

Basically I have always seen it described simply as a race.

Equalitarians want everyone to start at the same time next to each other and to address cheating/adversity in the race by occasionally giving a boost to some racers so they can catch up. Yet no one is entitled to place or even complete the race.

Some feminists think the race's starting points should be all over with those that have it the worst farther ahead on the track and those that have it the easiest farther back. Everyone however should finish the race but winning does not actually count because everyone gets the same trophy.

That's not quite accurate, egalitarians is more like how you described feminism, and feminism is more like how you described "equalitarians".

Although if I was to describe it as a race, it'd be feminism wants everyone's goals to be the same distance, nobody should have extra hurdles placed on THEIR race track jst because of race or gender or anything else. Can the people with the hurdles finish first? Yes, but it's still HARDER. Nobody is entitled to anything in the race, they just have the same race track and same finish line.

Egalitarians say "everyone has the exact same starting line, the exact same course, and if anyone falls behind they get a boost or benefit in order to put them into line with everyone else." Everyone ends up with the same goal and ending up in the same place, and disadvantages are smoothed over, people who try their hardest to get ahead however may find their abilities or work ends up being not as recognized as being a high achiever isn't as big a deal in such a communal style of society.

Snip~

That's working with a fantasy reality, the only way to make your particular view come forth is through effort to try and get past the prejudices that exist in the first place. Bringing attention to differences between people and genders is not racism and sexism, associating negative stereotypes based on race or gender IS. Positive differences? Culture and history are our primary positive differentiators, and the things people celebrate the most, religion and belief systems are also part of positive differences.

Race is not just skin color, it is history, it is a shared past and shared belief system amongst those who choose to follow their historical roots. Some don't, that's perfectly acceptable, there is no right answer, but that is no reason to ignore the differences and different kinds of thought people bring to the table based on their own personal history and culture.

Nobody is trying to craft differences, but acknowledging differences exist is not a bad thing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But the differences don't matter! Why are we trying to make them matter?

Because very many other people won't let them not matter.

All we need to do is keep giving hell to the people who try to pretend like we're all so goddamn different based on our race and gender and sexuality, and since most reasonable people can agree to that

Then it would seem that reasonable people are in the minority. Racism, sexism, homophobia and any number of other prejudices are very much alive.

For example, there are 196 countries in the world today. 16 of them allow gay marriage to all their citizens. In the remaining 180 countries, people have decided that the difference matters enough to ban gay marriage, (though some allow it in parts of their country). Gay people can stop talking about their differences, and it would not change this.

and this can all happen the moment we stop trying to pretend like any prejudice can ever be a good thing (E.G. "privilege" arguments).

That's really, really not what privilege is about.

 

[Ichiro Oogami]

But the differences don't matter! Why are we trying to make them matter? I don't think it's unrealistic, Hell, the internet is an amazing medium for this sort of thing, as you don't really know anything about anyone's gender, age, or race. All we need to do is keep giving hell to the people who try to pretend like we're all so goddamn different based on our race and gender and sexuality, and since most reasonable people can agree to that, eventually we can weed out all the jerkoffs trying to incite prejudice, and this can all happen the moment we stop trying to pretend like any prejudice can ever be a good thing (E.G. "privilege" arguments).

So if I understand correctly, we're "not allowed" to talk about these differences in any way, since talking about the differences results in discrimination and injustice. Everyone must be an identical gray blob, though they are free to decorate themselves how they wish.

The solution is always heavy-handed, dogmatic thought control, it seems. All in the name of justice, of course.

It's paradoxical that those who shout the loudest for diversity want everyone to be alike. But these differences are at the heart of what makes diversity so interesting. Precisely because we're unlike each other, we see things differently, and thus can notice things that others pass over without comment, or don't even see.

Trying to make everyone the same defeats the entire purpose of encouraging diversity; it is literally the opposite of diversity.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Here's some advice. Adhere to who YOU are and who YOU wanna be. Don't listen to other peoples demands, don't acknowledge them.

If someone blames you for their problems in life, because of your gender, skin colour, physique, hobby or age? Screw them!

Don't try to be someone you're not. Don't change who you are to adjust to others and as long as you're not directly harming people, then don't be sorry for who you are.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

and this can all happen the moment we stop trying to pretend like any prejudice can ever be a good thing (E.G. "privilege" arguments).

That's really, really not what privilege is about.[/quote]

Can you tell me what its about? I would have like some of my straight male privilige last year when I was 10 bucks away from being homeless every month.

Couldn't find that shit anywhere, but I kept getting told I had it.

 

[Ichiro Oogami]

The idea isn't that we should MAKE everyone the same, the idea is we ALREADY ARE the same (in terms of race/gender [gender identity and sexuality being more legitimate reflections of who you are]). If we weren't the same than prejudice would be completely justified. After all, if a positive or negative trait were to be attributed accurately to a specific race, than why wouldn't you discriminate? If there was hard scientific proof that people with attached earlobes were mass murderers 100% of the time, then it would make sense to avoid people with attached earlobes. As it is, all we have is the unfortunate results of the sins of our past still haunting us.

I'm not trying to shut anyone up, but it's frustrating to watch people embrace prejudice and racism and sexism after all the horrible things it's done in the past. Seriously, when did racism become a good thing?

So in order for people to get along, one must insist that they are the same, and anyone who says otherwise must be silenced in the name of justice. And here I thought it was possible to get along with people who were unlike me. So much for diversity, I guess.

Let's say the hypothetical equality endpoint is reached. The draconian restrictions put in place to prevent "discrimination" would have to remain in order to avoid any chance of difference returning. Liberty would be but a half-forgotten memory; everyone would just be puppets on the strings of idealists.

Difference is not scary.

 

[Popido]

Here's something for you all to think about.

Define the difference between Social Justice and Justice.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Can you tell me what its about? I would have like some of my straight male privilige last year when I was 10 bucks away from being homeless every month.

As mentioned several times in this thread already, privilege means you have certain unfair advantages over others that don't have it. It doesn't mean you have a great life, it doesn't mean you don't have other unfair disadvantages.

Have you ever been worried about being attacked due to your sexuality? If not, that's a privilege not everyone shares.

Or do you think that every african american should be required to listen to rap because we have to promote diversity? Or do you just think Martian Luther king was an amoral moron?

That's...quite a remarkable strawman.

You're acting like race has to define who we are, and that's a disgusting notion you should be ashamed to support.

The idea isn't that we should MAKE everyone the same, the idea is we ALREADY ARE the same (in terms of race/gender [gender identity and sexuality being more legitimate reflections of who you are]).

We aren't the same as long as the society we have to live in says we aren't. Sure, if everyone was to wake up tomorrow and stop caring about made up differences, the problem would disappear.

This is not going to happen. We have to deal with the world as it is, not what it should be, not what would make more sense. AS long as society treats people differently, there is a big difference between them.

 

[babinro]

I blame this on the internet being the internet.
People like to exaggerate to get attention.

I've known 3 people in real life who view gamers as something either truly negative/distasteful (fun fact, they've all been woman not that a sample group of 3 people means anything). In reality, people are generally fine with it.

Gamers have a negative stereotype attached to them which may never go away. I accept this as being unfair just like I do any other stereotype that promotes something positive or negative in a persons gender/hobbies/race/culture/sexual preference/religious belief/political stance/appearance, etc.

Fun Fact #2: I'm very much the stereotypical male Caucasian gamer that brings us all that hate. Mid-30's, live in a basement with a landlady (not parents but close enough?), play games 8+ hours a day, poor, obese, glasses, balding, single, completely anti-social, not remotely driven to obtain any kind of improved social status in terms of my profession or lifestyle. So yeah..sorry? I'm very happy with who I am and I'm not planning to make any drastic changes any time soon.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Can you tell me what its about? I would have like some of my straight male privilige last year when I was 10 bucks away from being homeless every month.

As mentioned several times in this thread already, privilege means you have certain unfair advantages over others that don't have it. It doesn't mean you have a great life, it doesn't mean you don't have other unfair disadvantages.

Have you ever been worried about being attacked due to your sexuality? If not, that's a privilege not everyone shares.

Or do you think that every african american should be required to listen to rap because we have to promote diversity? Or do you just think Martian Luther king was an amoral moron?

That's...quite a remarkable strawman.

You're acting like race has to define who we are, and that's a disgusting notion you should be ashamed to support.

The idea isn't that we should MAKE everyone the same, the idea is we ALREADY ARE the same (in terms of race/gender [gender identity and sexuality being more legitimate reflections of who you are]).

We aren't the same as long as the society we have to live in says we aren't. Sure, if everyone was to wake up tomorrow and stop caring about made up differences, the problem would disappear.

This is not going to happen. We have to deal with the world as it is, not what it should be, not what would make more sense. AS long as society treats people differently, there is a big difference between them.

So your saying privilige is something unique to an individual?
Because I've been poor, sexually harrassed at work and verbally abused.

I don't feel especially priviliged (especially in the sexual harrassment instance, because it was by a gay colleague who was popular with the female staff in charge of this like allegations of sexual misconduct).

As a straight white male, i feel other straight white males have more privilages than me. But I get lumped in with then regardless.

 

[Thaluikhain]

So your saying privilige is something unique to an individual?

Well...the way various privileges work together on that individual, perhaps.

Privilege isn't one thing that someone either does or doesn't have, there are any number of privileges. For the vast majority of people, some forms of privilege will work for them, and others against them.

As a straight white male, i feel other straight white males have more privilages than me. But I get lumped in with then regardless.

Certainly, there's a zillion other straight white males with more (or less) privileges than you. But, for example, your sexuality is no hindrance to getting married. More or less the entire world over, your sexuality is not going to be seen as a problem, as a threat to children or traditional values or whatever. In that, at least, you can be lumped in with all over straight people.

Of course, lumping a given straight white male in with other straight white males in regards to something not directly related to sexuality, race or gender doesn't work

 

[FFMaster]

I notice in here lots of people are talking about "privilege" and I kinda see this as the root and cause of all of the issues, mainly because a hell of a lot of people are looking at it from the wrong sodding side.

Basically we should not be saying "oh you have privilege and that's bad cause I don't have it", we should be saying "You don't have privilege, and that's bad and we should ensure that you DO have it".

Rather than drag one group down, raise another group up. Half of the reason there is a perceived attack on (in this case) male gamers is because rather than raising the "privilege" of one side its being handled by removing it from the other.

You remove something, you get a push-back, its basic human nature. It shouldn't matter that X game has this or doesn't have this, as long as the creator can make it. Because then that means that Y game can have it and ignore stuff that X game has.

By saying that you include people, when you say "no you can't do that" you get resentment.

So to get back to the point, I honestly think a bunch of people want male gamers to listen to other points of view and not play certain types of games, whereas it should be listen to other points and play ADDITIONAL types of games.

Its impossible to be inclusive when you exclude.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Basically we should not be saying "oh you have privilege and that's bad cause I don't have it", we should be saying "You don't have privilege, and that's bad and we should ensure that you DO have it".

Rather than drag one group down, raise another group up. Half of the reason there is a perceived attack on (in this case) male gamers is because rather than raising the "privilege" of one side its being handled by removing it from the other.

Doesn't work like that. You can't extend privilege to others, because privilege refers to a preferential treatment. Extending the same treatment to other groups means the original isn't being favoured anymore. Raising another group up is removing privilege.

In any case, that is what is being talked about anyway. People want (for example), more female representation in games, nobody is suggesting taking an axe to the industry and cutting out all the male-dominated games.

 

[mecegirl]

As a straight white male, i feel other straight white males have more privileges than me. But I get lumped in with then regardless.

Certainly, there's a zillion other straight white males with more (or less) privileges than you. But, for example, your sexuality is no hindrance to getting married. More or less the entire world over, your sexuality is not going to be seen as a problem, as a threat to children or traditional values or whatever. In that, at least, you can be lumped in with all over straight people.

Of course, lumping a given straight white male in with other straight white males in regards to something not directly related to sexuality, race or gender doesn't work

Exactly. Because there are multiple categories for privilege. A wealthy straight White male will have more privilege than a poor straight White male. They both have the privileges of gender, race, and sexuality, but not of class.
Conversely, a wealthy straight Black male will share some privileges with a poor straight White male. He will have more privilege is some area's and less privilege in other.

That said the "lumping in" has nothing to do with the privileges one doesn't have but with the privileges that they do. In the end, as it relates to video games, we can all go to Gamestop right now and see human after human protagonist on the shelves that are straight white males. About the biggest exception will be sports games. Even if the game has the option to create your own chracter it is still common for the representation of the protagonist on the box to be a white male who is presumably straight.

Just from personal experience with conversations concerning privilege misunderstandings arise because of viewpoint. Folks hear/read the word and think of where they lack privilege but rarely consider where they have privilege. Like thaluikhain has been trying to explain, it's not an either or thing. Once again in my experience those misunderstandings have led to amusing conversations with Black men and White women. They will berate others in groups with more privilege than they have, and then turn around treat those with less privilege than them the exact way that they were complain about.