What do people actually want male gamers to be like?

[Thaluikhain]

Again this is an incredibly middle class/upper middle class American centric view and this is from an American.

You conveniently leave out all other variables to make this lovely point which is intellectually dishonest. Games (ESPECIALLY AAA)are still primarily marketed to men because they are still the largest market share. They are the more reliable audience, with more disposable income, with known franchises so that is why men are catered to. Is that sexist? No it is economics and arguing anything else is dishonest.

Secondly who makes the argument that "games are under threat by treating women equally?" No one. The argument is usually that games are threatening/unwelcoming to women because certain folks have put forward a sex negative critic instead of a sex positive one. Which is also often done in feminist critique of pornography by the way.

It seems I misread the OP. I thought they were talking about the threat of games catering less to men, and they clarified it the threat of people saying bad things about male gamers.

As to your second point, people often do seem to see that as a threat, for some reason.

Only if you subscribe to feminist thought. Which many people do not. You have literally just morally admonished something like 80% of the American public who do not agree with your morality.

Er, no. Firstly, various other groups looking at other inequalities use it as well, not sure why it's associated with feminism so much.

Secondly, people outside of those groups don't tend to use it in that context at all, so I'm not seeing the problem in giving their definition.

 

[DementedSheep]

Folks just want male gamers to listen and stop acting like they're the only ones entitled to games or gaming culture.

Like seriously, just listen. That's it. If someone is like "this is sexist" don't just be like "You're a feminazi!" actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought. If someone is like "this is racist" don't just scream "Artistic integrity!" Actually listen to what they're saying and give it some thought.

And for folks to stop making death and rape threats, and to stop thinking that's "okay" or "just part of the culture." It's not okay.

There is some other stuff too, like how your rant is kinda missing the point. It'd be nice for male gamers to stop doing things like that. Acting like they're this horribly put upon group of people, when really the whole industry and culture still caters to them.

Pretty much this. The self-victimization is some of the most pathetic and embarassing-by-assosciation stuff I've seen.

You know, you don't get to make excuses. "Not all men!" is not a get-out-of-embarassment-free card. You are still guilty by assosciation because you aren't even trying to foster a gaming community where harassment of women is unacceptable and not treated like a joke, instead trying to defend yourself against accusations of sexism by... being sexist, saying that the women who are being threatened are "faking it" or "attention whores" or that they are somehow the real sexists because they "hate men" and other such nonsense.

Just stop. As a fellow male gamer, I urge you, please stop acting like an insufferable spoiled child about this; Whatever Sarkeesian and Quinn say and wether you agree or strongly disagree with them, they are still entitled to say these things in a public forum and you are equally entitled to ignore them. They aren't harassing the people who don't want to hear from them with hateful Twitter posts and emails from dummy accounts, and they aren't going to make video games homogenized and stale by compelling stupid and paraniod game companies to only cater to one demographic in the delusion that the one demographic is the only one in existence.

Your hobby could continue to exist unchanged and unchallenged if you just ignore the people you don't want to listen to... but when you attack them, or defend those who attack them, you're bringing down the wrath of the Allfather. The silent majority will actually notice the sexism now, and the slowly advancing glacier becomes an avalanche. And it's all your fault, as the privileged male gamer, because you ignored the problem until it blew up in your face.

Now you can either try to fix the actual problem by stigmatizing sexist and misogynist comments and behaviour and encouraging an equal, open and accepting community... or you can cry like a little ***** because your pwecious feewings were hurt by the mean ol' wimmenfolk and their evil campaign to have the right to be treated like fucking human beings.

Jeez being a little harsh there don't you think? Am I missing something because I don't really see what part of the OP warrants this reaction because he isn't calling for Sarkeensian and Quinn to shut up. He just seem to feel a little bit attacked by some of the recent controversies and I can kinda see why. There are people who way to accusatory or take things to be targeted at them when they aren't everywhere. It's very easy to fall into that. If someone talking misogynistic gamers and you don't do anything that is what they are calling misogynistic they aren't talking about you. If someone is talking specifically about the sort of person who crosses the line from criticism into outright harassment and attacking people who aren't 100% on their side (yes it happens) and you're not doing that they aren't talking about you. When people start grouping everyone who does have a viewpoint vaguely related to the extremists together then yes people can and should point out that "hey, yknow that actually is a very vocal minority most of us are reasonable". That's not the same as defending the extremists and there isn't a lot the average gamer can do about the shit heads in the community anyway. Maybe calling them out when they happen to see it in progress. They don't have to and can't hunt them down or anything. Most gamer are just playing and talking about games. This isn't somehow their fault by association.

 

[Thaluikhain]

He just seem to feel a little bit attacked by some of the recent controversies and I can kinda see why. There are people who way to accusatory or take things to be targeted at them when they aren't everywhere. It's very easy to fall into that.

Certainly...but people really need to stop doing that.

If it's not about you, but you make it about you, then you are siding with whoever it was about.

When people start grouping everyone who does have a viewpoint vaguely related to the extremists together then yes people can and should point out that "hey, yknow that actually is a very vocal minority most of us are reasonable". That's not the same as defending the extremists and there isn't a lot the average gamer can do about the shit heads in the community anyway. Maybe calling them out when they happen to see it in progress. They don't have to and can't hunt them down or anything. Most gamer are just playing and talking about games. This isn't somehow their fault by association.

Well...yes and no.

On the one hand, yes, not everyone in Group X is doing Y. Everyone knows this.

On the other hand, people in Group X who ignore Y until it's pointed out, and then go on to complain about the people pointing it out, rather than the people doing Y, are saying that the complaining is worse than what the complaint is about. "They don't speak for me" means little without "You don't speak for me".

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

It also doesn't help that it isn't a fixed, universal rule. There are places where it's better to be black than others and places where it's better to be a woman than others. Many of the Islamic states are pretty awesome for people of colour but probably not that good for women. And I think that's part of the problem. There's no privilege score (not seriously, anyway). There's no flow chart, no point system, no hard rules. Something you can't see and something that isn't equally true in all cases.

Actually, this is why I'm skeptical to the whole privilege thing when used on the internet.
You are talking to people from all over the world. Saying they're privileged because they're white cis males might not be true in the part of the world they live in.

And as long as you don't know that persons circumstances in life, saying they're privileged is a bloody stupid thing to do.
Stating differences between women and men, go for it. Saying it's an inherent privilege, not such a good idea.

Anyways, that's my two cents on this.

EDIT:

I want male gamers to stop taking everything personally and interpreting any and everything as an attock on eather them or their games

that would be a good start

Well, not generalizing is a good start too.
Most people that think they're under attack seem to feel that way because people are so bloody vague.
Just clearly stating who you mean is a great way to stop it.

EDIT2: Spellchecking.

 

[DC_78]

Secondly who makes the argument that "games are under threat by treating women equally?" No one. The argument is usually that games are threatening/unwelcoming to women because certain folks have put forward a sex negative critic instead of a sex positive one. Which is also often done in feminist critique of pornography by the way.

As to your second point, people often do seem to see that as a threat, for some reason.

I have never seen anyone argue for every protagonist character being Duke Nukem or Mario. Or every background NPC being a stripper/stereotype. Most argue against political correctness for artistic integrity and a desire to limit censorship. In other words the status quo. Now you may rightfully critic the status quo, but the narrative in the media has been to admonish it as morally wrong. Lack of diversity in itself is not morally wrong. The only option currently is either tokenism or changing the artistic vision of the developer. Because there is a severe limit on the talent pool of other artistic voices in the industry. Again this in itself is not a sign of exclusion, but simply a matter of demographics. Most developers, as has been seen, would fall all over themselves for talented other voices in games development. They just are not available or are just not as skilled.

To really change the industry fairly we should be encouraging people of diverse backgrounds into games development. This however takes more time, it is very easy to point out the flaws in the existing system than to address this the actual problem.

Only if you subscribe to feminist thought. Which many people do not. You have literally just morally admonished something like 80% of the American public who do not agree with your morality.

Er, no. Firstly, various other groups looking at other inequalities use it as well, not sure why it's associated with feminism so much.

Secondly, people outside of those groups don't tend to use it in that context at all, so I'm not seeing the problem in giving their definition.

Are you using the stereotypical version of privilege to mean American middle class white hetero cis male privilege? If so it is debatable.

It is true that blacks and Hispanics do worse on a range of social indicators, it's not true that whites do best. Because if all white people benefit? which includes the majority of people on food stamps, on unemployment and living in poverty in the United States ? then these benefits are rather illusionary, are they not? It is Asian Americans, not white Americans, who on average have higher incomes, better access to the professions, and better educational and family outcomes.

This is not what privilege theory predicts. If society is set up to benefit whites male cis yadda yadda at the expense of everyone else, then why would Asian Americans so rapidly rise to the top? And why are there so many whites on food stamps?

I believe the privilege argument is a fallacy. Denying the Antecedent 'Fallacious Modus Tollens' - like an improper transposition, but refers to other causes being overlooked. "Getting hit causes bruising. You haven't been hit, therefore you don't have any bruises." - not all effects have a single cause.

 

[Bakuryukun]

Decent human beings with some level of empathy for groups other than themselves.

Apparently that's too hard for a lot of people.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I have never seen anyone argue for every protagonist character being Duke Nukem or Mario. Or every background NPC being a stripper/stereotype. Most argue against political correctness for artistic integrity and a desire to limit censorship. In other words the status quo. Now you may rightfully critic the status quo, but the narrative in the media has been to admonish it as morally wrong. Lack of diversity in itself is not morally wrong. The only option currently is either tokenism or changing the artistic vision of the developer. Because there is a severe limit on the talent pool of other artistic voices in the industry. Again this in itself is not a sign of exclusion, but simply a matter of demographics. Most developers, as has been seen, would fall all over themselves for talented other voices in games development. They just are not available or are just not as skilled.

To really change the industry fairly we should be encouraging people of diverse backgrounds into games development. This however takes more time, it is very easy to point out the flaws in the existing system than to address this the actual problem.

By way of comparison...a year or two ago, there was a rather famous case of someone being outraged that a fantasy RPG allowed the option of playing as a gay character, because the industry ought to cater exclusively to straight men. Can't remember what game it was, but it was big news, briefly.

That person wasn't unique in that attitude. Extreme example, certainly, but that thinking exists, and I'd (evidently mistakenly) thought the OP was leaning towards that.

Are you using the stereotypical version of privilege to mean American middle class white hetero cis male privilege?

No, those are separate privileges. Having one does not guarantee having any of the others.

It is true that blacks and Hispanics do worse on a range of social indicators, it's not true that whites do best. Because if all white people benefit? which includes the majority of people on food stamps, on unemployment and living in poverty in the United States ? then these benefits are rather illusionary, are they not? It is Asian Americans, not white Americans, who on average have higher incomes, better access to the professions, and better educational and family outcomes.

This is not what privilege theory predicts. If society is set up to benefit whites male cis yadda yadda at the expense of everyone else, then why would Asian Americans so rapidly rise to the top? And why are there so many whites on food stamps?

I believe the privilege argument is a fallacy. Denying the Antecedent 'Fallacious Modus Tollens' - like an improper transposition, but refers to other causes being overlooked. "Getting hit causes bruising. You haven't been hit, therefore you don't have any bruises." - not all effects have a single cause.

You are correct that that's not how things work, but that's because that's looking at privilege as a simple binary, something you have or you don't have, totally ignoring intersectionality. Yes, that's not how the world works, but then very few people using the word "privilege" claim that it does, it's a total oversimplification.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a line that gets put around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?". Because a black male has to deal with racism, and a white woman with sexism (and black women, of course, with both). Each has a privilege over the other, despite the other having a privilege over them.

Now (in the US at least), white people have privilege, but are only guaranteed to have white privilege. There are a set on unfair advantages they have working for them, but any given individual might have any number of unfair disadvantages as well. A white gay Christian might be beat up for being gay, but still not have to worry about being shot by police for being black, or being attacked for being Muslim. For that matter, he might support persecution against black people or Muslims, whilst (rightfully) upset at being persecuted himself.

 

[DementedSheep]

He just seem to feel a little bit attacked by some of the recent controversies and I can kinda see why. There are people who way to accusatory or take things to be targeted at them when they aren't everywhere. It's very easy to fall into that.

Certainly...but people really need to stop doing that.
If it's not about you, but you make it about you, then you are siding with whoever it was about.

As I said its an easy mistake to make and actually attacking them isn't going to help. It just going to make them feel more attacked because now they are being attacked. Being aggressive is the fastest way to get someone to stop listening to your actual point and drive them in opposite direction.

When people start grouping everyone who does have a viewpoint vaguely related to the extremists together then yes people can and should point out that "hey, yknow that actually is a very vocal minority most of us are reasonable". That's not the same as defending the extremists and there isn't a lot the average gamer can do about the shit heads in the community anyway. Maybe calling them out when they happen to see it in progress. They don't have to and can't hunt them down or anything. Most gamer are just playing and talking about games. This isn't somehow their fault by association.

Well...yes and no.

On the one hand, yes, not everyone in Group X is doing Y. Everyone knows this.

On the other hand, people in Group X who ignore Y until it's pointed out, and then go on to complain about the people pointing it out, rather than the people doing Y, are saying that the complaining is worse than what the complaint is about. "They don't speak for me" means little without "You don't speak for me".

People are more likely to comment on things that directly affect them especially when there is already a lot of talk about how horrible the harassers are. That they are assholes kinda goes without saying. I can't speak for him but I doubt the OP is actually intending to say people complaining about harassers are more of a problem than harassers. When I get annoyed at people bringing up the extremist "feminists" I'm not defending them.

 

[Super Cyborg]

To the OP, my suggestion would be to just stay out of these hot topics as much as possible. Don't venture into threads, stay away from any social media concerning said events, and just know that with all the different things being thrown around, it's impossible to satisfy everyone. I only glance at the controversy to be informed, and nothing else. While I'm not perfect, and have certain things people won't like about me, I improve in the things I can and stand strong in the things I believe in. It probably helps me a lot to that I do almost no online multiplayer, with the last one I did was Mario Kart 8. In the end, the best thing you can do is treat everyone with the respect you would want them to have to you. That will get you a long way.

As for the rest of this thread, it seems a lot of arguments are being thrown around, but most of it just bounces around without sticking to anyone. With where I am in life and what I have, I can say I have it really well. I can say that a lot of it is due to the "privileges" I have, but also due to my hard work. I have learned through life that some have gotten what I've gotten much easier, but for every one there are 5 more that had to work harder. I fully respect those that had to work really hard, and had to suffer more than I will ever have to. That's why while I don't have a voice, I support those that wish to have themselves represented in any type of media.

I believe that anything should be allowed to be expressed in any type of media. It stifles creativity in the long run, and if it's not allowed, we can miss out on great works. It also just brings life into a boring, lifeless media. It also allows for everyone to get different things they like. Certain games like Persona 4 showed me that having an array of diverse characters can bring to make something great. It also shows the potential of what can be done narrative wise when exploring gender, sexuality, race, ideology, etc. I've been expanding the types of games I play, and now I hope the industry can expand on the type of games that it will make, especially when it comes to the characters presented.

The biggest problem is that groups attack certain people, instead of talking about the actual point. Other times people talk about specifics rather than the larger point. The point is simple, we need more diversity in games. While there are some here and there that do it, there is much to be desired still. Best thing all of us can do is to support games that try to be different. If you truly want to see the industry grow, you will have to pay for a game, even if it has aspects you don't care for. Get the game, then talk about what could be improved. Everything starts with a first step, and that first step starts with the consumer.

 

[Thaluikhain]

People are more likely to comment on things that directly effect them especially when there is already a lot of talk about how horrible the harassers are. That they are assholes kinda goes without saying. I can't speak for him but I doubt the OP is actually intending to say people complaining about harassers are more of a problem than harassers. When I get annoyed at people bringing up the extremist "feminists" I'm not defending them.

Oh certainly, I don't mean to say the OP is intending that or anything.

But, like you say, people are more likely to comment on things that affect them. To them, the complaints are more of a problem to them personally than what the complaints are about. Very common for people to take that line of thinking a bit too far without realising it.

 

[runic knight]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.


I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

I want male gamers to stop taking everything personally and interpreting any and everything as an attock on eather them or their games

that would be a good start

To be fair, it is hard not to when your gender is used so often as some crime that you can never quite be absolved of. Or when the media largely relies on a stereotype to talk to you like you are a barely human reprobate. Or when any action you do that is negative towards a member of the opposite sex is seen as motivated intent against that person's gender instead of just, you know, individuals not getting along because individuality works that way.

Really, this is actually sort of an unfair request given the state of the overall discussions in gaming itself. How can one not at least take it a little personally when their opinions, frustration, anger or mistakes are declared based on their gender and the opinions, frustration, anger or mistakes are representative of them as well.

And that is even before going into the next layer down of fandoms and identity in how people regardless of gender can view a medium as part of what forms their identify and get defensive about it.

so yeah, your request is really sort of an unfair request towards a gender of gamers alone.

It would be nice if people in general didn't let their passions and associations get the best of them, but given the state of gaming at the moment, I got to disagree with you here I am afraid.

 

[DC_78]

By way of comparison...a year or two ago, there was a rather famous case of someone being outraged that a fantasy RPG allowed the option of playing as a gay character, because the industry ought to cater exclusively to straight men. Can't remember what game it was, but it was big news, briefly.

That person wasn't unique in that attitude. Extreme example, certainly, but that thinking exists, and I'd (evidently mistakenly) thought the OP was leaning towards that.

No worries. In your example we agree, straight out prejudice is inexcusable. However I will refrain from outright calling the opinion wrong and simply state that I disagree.

Are you using the stereotypical version of privilege to mean American middle class white hetero cis male privilege?

No, those are separate privileges. Having one does not guarantee having any of the others.

My apologies then. I have been arguing quite often with folks that do mean all of the above lately and I jumped to that definition.

It is true that blacks and Hispanics do worse on a range of social indicators, it's not true that whites do best. Because if all white people benefit? which includes the majority of people on food stamps, on unemployment and living in poverty in the United States ? then these benefits are rather illusionary, are they not? It is Asian Americans, not white Americans, who on average have higher incomes, better access to the professions, and better educational and family outcomes.

This is not what privilege theory predicts. If society is set up to benefit whites male cis yadda yadda at the expense of everyone else, then why would Asian Americans so rapidly rise to the top? And why are there so many whites on food stamps?

I believe the privilege argument is a fallacy. Denying the Antecedent 'Fallacious Modus Tollens' - like an improper transposition, but refers to other causes being overlooked. "Getting hit causes bruising. You haven't been hit, therefore you don't have any bruises." - not all effects have a single cause.

You are correct that that's not how things work, but that's because that's looking at privilege as a simple binary, something you have or you don't have, totally ignoring intersectionality. Yes, that's not how the world works, but then very few people using the word "privilege" claim that it does, it's a total oversimplification.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there's a line that gets put around "Which would you rather be, black or a woman?". Because a black male has to deal with racism, and a white woman with sexism (and black women, of course, with both). Each has a privilege over the other, despite the other having a privilege over them.

Now (in the US at least), white people have privilege, but are only guaranteed to have white privilege. There are a set on unfair advantages they have working for them, but any given individual might have any number of unfair disadvantages as well. A white gay Christian might be beat up for being gay, but still not have to worry about being shot by police for being black, or being attacked for being Muslim. For that matter, he might support persecution against black people or Muslims, whilst (rightfully) upset at being persecuted himself.

Again I disagree with intersectionality theory as well. Intersectionality plays into the dangerous postmodern fallacy that we can only understand things we have direct experience of. In place of concepts like empathy and imagination, which help us recognise our shared humanity, it atomises us into a series of ever-smaller groups.

It just is not helpful and promotes the negative victim narrative. Which overly lowers people's self esteem and often leads to abuse. It is also the definition of poisoning the well in any debate.

 

[Bat Vader]

-snip

/salute

Yea, I'd like to see some of these people actually put in some time in the service. They want to talk about privilege? how about the privilege where they're the fucking 99% who's never had to spent a single day in a uniform in service of something else other than their armchair philosophy pursuit.

Times like this is when I wish we still have the draft, I'd like to see these people spend a year in the shitholes of Afghanistan and then try to talk about the fucking male privilege.

Nothing about male privilege, I just wanted to say that I highly disagree with drafting. I would rather people be in the military because they want to be there, not because they are forced to be there.

 

[Doclector]

Seriously, I'm fed up of this shit. Since this gamergate thing has sprung up, many people, including actual sites, have accused male gamers of everything shitty under the sun. I'm getting pretty sick of being painted as the world's biggest asshole because I dared to play fucking videogames AND have testicles.


I'm sick of it, and I just want a clear fucking answer, y'know? Because fact is, this isn't going away. There's gonna be another set of rules, so I may as well at least be clear on what the fuck they are this time.

/rant

I want male gamers to stop taking everything personally and interpreting any and everything as an attock on eather them or their games

that would be a good start

yeah well, I'm being ridiculed all the time because of this. People are laughing at me, insulting me, there's places in real life I just don't go anymore because I'm afraid my mere prescence will offend people. Feels like it's affecting me personally, so why the fuck shouldn't I take it personally? You might say that this is how female gamers have been treated for years, and you'd be right, but making things shitty for everyone isn't how we fucking make progress.

 

[Vault101]

yeah well, I'm being ridiculed all the time because of this. People are laughing at me, insulting me

and who's doing this?

[quote/]there's places in real life I just don't go anymore because I'm afraid my mere prescence will offend people.[/quote]
well that's something a little different, and I can't imagine many places like that except...mabye a girls bathroom?

 

[Thorn14]

I just hate being the bad guy because I like games that have a little fanservice in them now and then.

 

[dragoongfa]

Nothing about male privilege, I just wanted to say that I highly disagree with drafting. I would rather people be in the military because they want to be there, not because they are forced to be there.

I disagree on this.

Historically speaking it has proven dangerous for democratic societies to base their armed forces around a pure professional army. Army life is by default detached from societal norm due its very nature, as thus it is quite easy for professional soldiers to begin seeing the civilians as foreign to them in all regards.

Draftees always had deep seated reservations whenever they were ordered to suppress their own civilian populace when the society was in an uproar. In my eyes it's a form of safety net for democratic societies.

It is more complicated that this of course but in the end a draftee always sees himself as part of the nation he belongs to. A professional soldier on the other hand will begin to feel alienated after some time.

Personally speaking my time in the army was a real eye opener. It was the first time in my life that I associated myself with complete strangers from all walks of life. At first I felt completely alone but after a couple of days I realized that I was interacting with a miniature of society. I learned plenty of things about myself and others, gained some much needed confidence and self respect and I finally understood what it means to be socially responsible.

 

[Doclector]

yeah well, I'm being ridiculed all the time because of this. People are laughing at me, insulting me

and who's doing this?

[quote/]there's places in real life I just don't go anymore because I'm afraid my mere prescence will offend people.

well that's something a little different, and I can't imagine many places like that except...mabye a girls bathroom?[/quote]people in the street. I can hear them perfectly if I don't have my headphones turned up high enough for permanent ear damage. If I'm in enclosed nerdy spaces (small game shops, certain aisles in hmv, the nerd corner in waterstones) and people come near I have to leave. But this is all goddamn pointless seeming as you just want to ridicule me more, apparently.