It's a pretty hostile word. I keep it loaded and only use it when I want to hurt the person I'm speaking to. It's more or less the same as 'Fuck you.' It has little to do with homophobia and everything to do with shock value.
What do you think of the word "******"? [LOTS OF CURSE WORDS AHOY]
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It's a bunch of wooden sticks, used for firemaking, and a packet of cigarettes. I don't know how they could have possibly been changed to homophobic slurs, or used as insults. It was when the terms came to America that they were used in those contextes.
I guess America (aka Crazyland United) just doesn't want to make sense.
I guess America (aka Crazyland United) just doesn't want to make sense.
I kinda like it. I have nothing against gay people but it's a word that people get easily offended over, and I use it sometimes just to piss people off, or challenge political correctness in a miniscule way.
I mainly only use it amongst friends though, as a joke.
I know it's immature as hell, but I guess I just don't want to grow up.
I mainly only use it amongst friends though, as a joke.
I know it's immature as hell, but I guess I just don't want to grow up.
It's derogative and shouldn't be used casually. But it exists in language and that is something that can't be altered.
Personally, this word is a good indicator of a persons maturity. It's impossible to use this word in a relatively inoffensive (but still crude) way like "Fuck" ("What the fuck is going on here"). When it's used its vile and obnoxious... a persons who uses it frequently is a moron (or a bigot... but also a moron).
Personally, this word is a good indicator of a persons maturity. It's impossible to use this word in a relatively inoffensive (but still crude) way like "Fuck" ("What the fuck is going on here"). When it's used its vile and obnoxious... a persons who uses it frequently is a moron (or a bigot... but also a moron).
It?s a word with multiple meanings that can be harmful within a certain context(s).
Oh, and just because your gay brother says it casually doesn?t mean that it?s not offensive to some people (although I?m not implying that?s what you thought). If that was the case, then white people would generally think it?s fine to use ?nigga? in casual conversation (IIRC, not even Eminem says ?nigga?).
However, I don?t think people should get into a politically correct hissy-fit over it. I can?t remember exactly what my gay friend said, but it was something like, ?If you?re so pathetic as to start sulking just because someone called you a derogatory term, then you?re not going to survive in life.? I know this won?t go for everyone, but I?m black, and I don?t care if people use the word ?nigga? (sometimes my friends even call me ?Brown Bear?, like JD does with Turk in Scrubs). It?s just a fucking word, and whenever someone ?accidentally? uses it and apologizes to me, I just say, ?It?s all right, it?s just a word. No offence taken.?
I occasionally use it when I?m angry at someone, although it?s a term I use much less than, say, ?****? or ?retard?, especially if I?m in the vicinity of a gay person that might take offence. Unless I know that he?s fine with it and/or we?re just joking around. Like when my ginger bisexual friend shouted to me, ?Hey, you?re black!? To which I replied, ?You?re ginger! And bi! 2-1!? Normally, my default phrase to insult someone is, ?You little slut!? You know, maybe I probably shouldn?t say stuff like that, but everyone does it and, at the end of the day, they?re only words.
Oh, and just because your gay brother says it casually doesn?t mean that it?s not offensive to some people (although I?m not implying that?s what you thought). If that was the case, then white people would generally think it?s fine to use ?nigga? in casual conversation (IIRC, not even Eminem says ?nigga?).
However, I don?t think people should get into a politically correct hissy-fit over it. I can?t remember exactly what my gay friend said, but it was something like, ?If you?re so pathetic as to start sulking just because someone called you a derogatory term, then you?re not going to survive in life.? I know this won?t go for everyone, but I?m black, and I don?t care if people use the word ?nigga? (sometimes my friends even call me ?Brown Bear?, like JD does with Turk in Scrubs). It?s just a fucking word, and whenever someone ?accidentally? uses it and apologizes to me, I just say, ?It?s all right, it?s just a word. No offence taken.?
I occasionally use it when I?m angry at someone, although it?s a term I use much less than, say, ?****? or ?retard?, especially if I?m in the vicinity of a gay person that might take offence. Unless I know that he?s fine with it and/or we?re just joking around. Like when my ginger bisexual friend shouted to me, ?Hey, you?re black!? To which I replied, ?You?re ginger! And bi! 2-1!? Normally, my default phrase to insult someone is, ?You little slut!? You know, maybe I probably shouldn?t say stuff like that, but everyone does it and, at the end of the day, they?re only words.
I think that faggots tend to be gloriously meaty balls, especially with gravy. in fact, everyone have a ******!
Honestly, never heard it used in a Homophobic way. I've heard it shouted as a generic insult tonnes of times, but up until last year I didn't even know it had Homophobic connotations in some places.
Honestly, I treat it the same way as any other swear word; Don't use it around people sensitive to that sort of thing [A lot of older people, some people the same age as me], but let it fly if you're just around friends/other people who DGAF about swearing.
Honestly, I treat it the same way as any other swear word; Don't use it around people sensitive to that sort of thing [A lot of older people, some people the same age as me], but let it fly if you're just around friends/other people who DGAF about swearing.
First off yes, my response if focused on Americas use of the word. The word has a completely different context across the pond, and I'm willing to say that in this case, ****** in England is not the same as ****** in America: They are homophones (err, no pun intended).Treblaine said:
Secondly, word etymology is definitely interesting, and I knew most of what you posted. However, it is irrelevant, because regardless of the history, people don't consider the history when they are useing it in a modern context, except if they are trying to sound clever. Regardless of what it meant, what it means today (In America) is a slur for gay people, and a generic insult that grew from that slur. The person saying it knows that they are communicating that idea to another, and the person hearing it has that idea communicated to him. The history is interesting, but irrelevant as far as meaning go.
(Also for the record, in America, "Fanny" has a much more innocent meaning then over there. Frankly I can't believe that little british/american difference hasn't caused an international incident)
"What matters is context. Saying "do it ******" to a guy who is being timid is not a challenge to his sexuality."
Maybe not to the person being called a ******. However, the implication is that timid weakness is associated with homosexuality. If the boy who is being called a ****** regardless of sexuality happens to be gay, then he is being told that he is not only weak, but that this person is mocking him by pretending to call him a loathsome sexuality that he ACTUALLY IS. The implication being that he better hide that side of himself, or he will never be treated like a human being. Whats worse, this message is sent to EVERY homosexual who hears this slur, not just the one targeted.
Sure, if the term, "******" were ever to be completely separated from homosexuality, it would be fine. But this is no where near happening. The association is still there, and will keep being there.
So you say etymology doesn't matter in day to day usage in how people are offended. In that you are right. But you can't then add your own historical etymology.Xanadu84 said:
If the meaning of words day to day comes not from their history but their actual use then you have to see how the terms are actually used in very recent history.
Let's separate what "******" might historically mean, if everyone hears it used against everyone in a generally heterosexual male group then they are not going to associate it with homosexuality but with refusing a challenge. If they hear the term "fag" used against homosexuals in a negative sense it's clearly a negative term used for homosexuals.
You say we should separate the historical etymologies from how they are actually percieved and interpreted then you CANNOT conflate "fag" with "******" and must recognise how they are used differently.
I did not ever live in America but I did go to an American school in the Middle East, I have more understanding than most Englishman on how these terms are used.
Not necessarily. The term "******" is just used so widely and consistently against heterosexual males who are merely being insufficiently bold and NOT against homosexuals where the term "fag" is used makes clear - regardless of history - the terms have very different meaning.
It simply would not work if Jesse Ventura called Arnold Schwarzenegger a "fag" in that helicopter because he refused his chewing tobacco challenge. It would be clear he is accusing him of being a gay man, not joking that he was insufficiently macho. And I don't think lack of macho is any impression you get from gay culture:
See, now YOU are trying to bring in history of the term rather than how the terms are actually used.
I have heard certain homosexuals self-identify as a "fag" in a similar sense to how certain gangster rappers try to claim back "******" but never as a "******".
Remember, "Fag" and "******" appear relatively recently in American Lexicon. Before the 1960's the derogatory term for Homosexual WAS the very word "homosexual" from how hostile society was towards it and it wasn't used outside that context. Queer was also used as well as "fairy" but not "fag" nor "******". So you see this invention is recent and the dichotomy between "fag" and "******" appeared quickly.
I think it is a good thing that "******" is changed in meaning to simply be an uncouth way of saying "coward" regardless of sexual preference. I encourage it's use against all heterosexual people and the more it is used in that sense. I object against it's use against homosexuals as it is simply incorrect.
The term "fag" is however too associated with homosexuality and will remain an offensive term for male homosexuals that I suspect many will try to reclaim, much like certain African Americans and the term "******". Yes, "fag" is similar to "******". So "******" is similar (and has same root) as Niger, or Nigeria and coincidentally like "snigger", this isn't a problem, the terms are still distinct.
I highly discourage the use of the term "gay" as a general negative term. That is the non-clinical term for homosexuality, that heterosexual people have with the term "straight" which is widely used. Now THAT would be a clear an unambiguous case of using homosexuality in itself as an insult. By using the term that homosexuals males self-identify themselves with as a blanked negative is exploiting and encouraging homophobia. But no significant numbers of homosexuals self-identify as "faggots". The slur label is "fag".
And that is from how the words are used, not their historical etymology.
The meaning of ****** has changed. Words change all the time. Some people are too attached to their dictionaries.
I think it to be rather unfortunate that likening somebody to a certain group of people is meant to be an insult.
****** is one of those words that I consciously try not to say, because I would seem like an immature jerk for using it.
****** is one of those words that I consciously try not to say, because I would seem like an immature jerk for using it.
The long and the short of it is that, at least in terms of every person I have encountered in this culture, both, "Fag" and "******" mean either a slur for a homosexual person, or a person who has many of the traits of a homosexual, those being a weak, overly effeminate, submissive, inferior person. Every time it is used as an insult, the speaker is completely and totally aware that this word is also a derogatory term used for homosexuals, and that the listener is also aware of this fact. If their expressed intent is to only utilize the insulting aspect of the word, they still must be aware that the image being conjured up in the other persons head is a homosexual person, and the implied, negative stereotypes. At least in this culture, if a person used the term "******", they will know that the listener will interpret this word as a very negative comparison to a sexuality over 99% of the time. Can I back this statement up? No, in much the same way that I can't back up the idea that violently jamming your finger into a persons chest while screaming obscenities at them is interpreted by most people as impolite; it's just one of the mores of the culture. If you feel that people using the term, "Fag" or ******" is divorced from the concept of sexuality by the speaker, at least in America, I say that you are wrong, and likely this is just a cultural gap. I don't begrudge you it, and I also think that there is no further argument to be had, because any argument from either of us would be impossible to cite.Treblaine said:
As for the idea of taking it back, it's a foolish endeavor to begin with. The idea of taking a word back is to try to take away the power of the word by using it in a way that is not negative. And frankly, it doesn't work. A big part of this is that all it really does is encourage the people using it as a slur. Let's take the word, "******". It was attempted to be co-opted by the black community to remove its power. But it is obvious that that is what is being done, and it really just makes the slur-users more comfortable in using it as a slur. When a gay person self-identified as a, "Fag", it's interpreted neutrally only by those who desperately force themselves to interpret it neutrally. To everyone else, it just looks like self-deprecation. Try to take back a slur and the best case scenario is that people will see you as being ironic. The word itself still means all the bad things it meant before.
Will "Fag" ever be divorced from the stereotype of a gay man? I suppose it is possible. But it's not a fight worth fighting. Given years of struggle, and alienating countless of sway-able moderates, we could finally...rhyme a term for a gay man with, "Baguette" without mean-spirited implications. Yay, I'm excited. Better to focus that same time end energy changing peoples minds about homosexuality itself. As for here and now, in this moment, in this culture, sure, i'd like for people to be able to use the term, "******" without that enforcing a harmful stereotype. I'd also like a toilet made of gold.
Btw, Daystar, LOVE your Avatar!
OT: It depends on how it is used... I get annoyed when it is used, but I ignore it.
OT: It depends on how it is used... I get annoyed when it is used, but I ignore it.
The problem with your essay, however well written, is that Australian law doesn't legislate against slang I use whilst amongst friends.Treblaine said:
A bundle of sticks. Burning = FlamingOhJohnNo said:
... I think its pretty clear lol
Dropping ****** is *generally* distasteful imo, but it can be done if you're actually black, or hang out with enough black people that they know you don't mean it/aren't just saying it cause you can lolDragonLord Seth said:
"sexist"thylasos said:
I have never heard sexist slur on online gaming, unless you count calling another man a "****" or a "pussy".
Just stop pretending you are any better, online communities are a lot better than you imagine them to be. It's the same thing as boasting that you hate CoD even though you haven't touched it with a 12 foot pole.
Because you know... There were a bunch of people in Africa that we didn't actually know, and we enslaved them and our ignorance lead us to consider them subhuman. just saying.