what does "poorley written" mean?

[Vault101]

I've seen peeople say things are "poorley written" when to me theres honestly nothing wrong

the thing is I dont think I have a very good grasp on what it means when somthing is "poorley written" aside from very obvious examples

so what is it?

-is it dialouge?
-is it charachters?
-is it the plot?

I'd like examples...and not painfully obvious ones like the room, but ones that are less obvious, and reasons why

reason I ask is (you may have seen from other threads) I've been getting into writing some stories and I want a better understanding of things I should be avoiding

 

[Daystar Clarion]

[sub][sub]Must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101'spelling.[/sub][/sub]

Vault101's spelling!


It can be a number of things, from pacing, to character dialogue, to actual characters (Mary Sues and such).

Really, the best thing you can do is read, and read often. You'll get a feel for what is good and what is bad.

 

[shrekfan246]

... it's "poorly".

Sorry, I had to.

If something makes you laugh and the intended reaction was not laughter, it's probably poorly written.

If you're getting bored while watching or playing something (and it's not because the gameplay is tedious or repetitive), it's probably poorly written.

If you want to skip every cut-scene so you can get back to the action, the game is probably poorly written. This one is more of a variable though, because some things are inherently more interesting to some people than others. For instance, I find Metal Gear Solid to be very interesting, but I fully understand other people who say that the cut-scenes drag on for far too long and I believe that a good editor was desperately needed to slap Kojima's hands away from the scripts at some point.

There are things that are badly written but entertaining nonetheless - See the entire Devil May Cry franchise, particularly 3 and 4 because 1 has a practically nonexistent story and 2 is a convoluted piece of piss-whiffle. In this case, there's generally a high amount of cheese and self-awareness present within the writing, which is what elevates it to being entertaining in the first place.

When it comes to dialogue, there's a certain balance that needs to be struck between exposition dumping and fluffy banter. Too little and the characters won't feel developed, but too much and it'll feel tedious to try going through all of it. There's more leeway in general with dialogue than with descriptive prose though, because typically it's not as difficult to visualize a conversation as it is the location an author is trying to portray. Also, it's not all that difficult to excuse your way out of characters that are 'poorly written' on purpose, especially if they're juxtaposed against well-written characters.

 

[Queen Michael]

[sub][sub]Must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101'spelling.[/sub][/sub]

Vault101's spelling!

Aaaaaaand there's the entire forum being ninja'd.

 

[ShinyCharizard]

Haha the misspelling of the title just makes this hilarious. One thing that I would consider to be poor writing is using too many complex descriptors when something simple would do.

 

[Keoul]

Well there's the obvious spelling and grammatical errors for starters.
Then there's just... bad writing... like when pacing isn't done right, plot holes, characters constantly "godmoding" through the plot and a lot of other things that makes the story hard to enjoy.

Plot holes especially, that deserves a double mention because of how badly it can ruin something.

 

[Queen Michael]

When I gave Tyra Banks's novel Modelland a try (shutup I was bored), I found that she made what I consider to be the biggest mistake any writer can do. She forgot that the readers don't know and feel the things that she knows and feels about the story. For instance, in the beginning the main characters mocks a girl who hasn't done anything to her. The girl being mocked starts acting like a rhymes-with-hitch later in the book, but at that point we had been given no reason to dislike her, so the protagonist just seemed mean when she mocked her. In short: Make sure that the readers get the impression they're supposed to get from your characters.

 

[Vault101]

When it comes to dialogue, there's a certain balance that needs to be struck between exposition dumping and fluffy banter. Too little and the characters won't feel developed, but too much and it'll feel tedious to try going through all of it.

good advice!

when I think about it, I think uncharted is kind of badly written.....as Ive said before 99% of the dialouge is sarcastic banter which is tedious when theres nothing to contrast too...the only 2 times I ever found somthing actually funny said in an uncharted game was in U3 a charachter refers to the villan as "scary poppins" and at the end when sully screams "THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS" as the level collapses

and in ME3 the charachters would (annoyingly) go into codex mode and spew out facts that the player SHOULD REALLY KNOW at this point in the series

 

[Spade Lead]

Read Twilight. If Stephanie Meyer did it, you shouldn't.

Really, the best way to tell if something is good or not is to see if it is interesting, fun, and surprising. If everyone sees something coming, it isn't well written. My girlfriend hates watching movies with me because she has shitty taste in movies, and 9 times out of 10, I can see what is coming next. The times I don't, I call a plot twist that the writer is actually too lazy to use, and even she thinks it was a shittily written piece of ass that was badly written.

Also, CHECK FACTS! If you use science to explain something, make sure it makes sense to the people who are reading it.

And dear GOD, spell check yourself often, as your spelling and grammar are atrocious.

 

[Supertegwyn]

- Bad spelling/grammar
- Facts aren't right (5+5=12!)
- Awkward dialogue (doesn't sound like a real person is speaking)
- Makes you laugh when you read it.
- Vault 101's spelling (it's already been done, but it needs repeating)

Those are the main ones for me.

 

[Eddie the head]

- Bad spelling/grammar
- Facts aren't right (5+5=12!)
- Awkward dialogue (doesn't sound like a real person is speaking)
- Makes you laugh when you read it.
- Vault 101's spelling (it's already been done, but it needs repeating)

Those are the main ones for me.

Well if it's meant to be funny that's not bad, but like watching a cutscene in say World of Warcraft. Yeah laughing at that is bad writing.

 

[SlaveNumber23]

Well if you are on the IMDB message boards, 'poor writing' is a tortured and abused term which people use to describe any narrative direction or event they didn't like in a tv show or movie "I didn't like that the writers killed off this character so therefore they are talentless hacks".

In the reality outside of those deluded minds, if something is poorly written it is basically just awkward to read and/or has a lot of spelling/grammatical errors. Pretty much everything Supertegwyn listed.

 

[Joccaren]

I've seen peeople say things are "poorley written" when to me theres honestly nothing wrong

the thing is I dont think I have a very good grasp on what it means when somthing is "poorley written" aside from very obvious examples

so what is it?

This is a rather wide and broad subject and question, but I'll break it down for each of the topics you've listed below, 'cause it applies to all of them.
Oh, and am I the only one that thinks this is a joke with your spelling, and that you intended it like this. I'm going to guess other people acknowledge that and are just joking about your bad spelling, but really if not it seems way too obvious to me that that is an intended joke.

-is it dialouge?

For dialogue poorly written things can be in a couple of varieties. It usually crosses with character and plot as well though.
Things to avoid in Dialogue are what I like to call "Blizzard Dialogue", after what Blizzard did in Diablo 3 [Yes, this does mean Diablo 3 examples. Spoilers], or Captain Obvious if you'd prefer. Basically, pointing out something that is horribly obvious with no real reason to it. Kinda like the Darth Vader "NOOOOOOOO" in a way. One example is Leia or whatever her name is in Diablo 3 is going with her scene with Tyreal. We see Tyreal give up his place in Heaven to protect the humans, and then she basically says "You gave up your place to help us". Well no shit, what were we just shown. It would have been just as effective to keep moving on with Tyreal's vision, or have said fewer words that held as much meaning. As well as that, in the beginning the "My Uncle saw what he wanted to see" line was rather unnecessary. "It was all just stories" rather got the point across, and if you feel the need in to clarify more, you don't need to include "My Uncle" to specify who it was, its rather obvious from the fact you're sitting over his grave. Show, don't tell. Rule #1, 2 or 3 of story telling. Well, probably none of those but its important nonetheless.
Some might disagree with me there, mostly on the semantics I guess, but an important thing to note is that those conversations are awkward. Would you talk like that IRL? No? Then why is someone talking like that?
Unless its intended to be non-normal dialogue thanks to culture or race [I.E: Mass Effect Hanar], then you should write things that would only be said in real life. The one and only golden rule of dialogue IMO, and this is coming for someone who is usually praised for his dialogue in the pieces I have written and given to others to review.
Other than that, its fairly obvious; Don't make a character say something that doesn't fit their character, unless its a part of the plot [I.E: A Lawful Good Paladin who's all about saving people, redemption and forgiveness should NOT advocate killing someone. The exception to this is if their character is undergoing change thanks to what has happened to them, which should have been foreshadowed before this, or if they are under control of an evil necromancer or something who would say something like that], and don't have them say things that don't count towards either furthering the plot or the reader's understanding of the character [Having them spend pages just talking about random stuff for no real reason. A bit of that can be good to set the scene, just following every conversation someone would have though... It is incredibly boring, and if it doesn't matter then we don't need to hear it.]

-is it charachters?

Characters are a bit odd. There isn't a right or wrong way to do them, it all depends on the story. For the most part, keep the characters consistent with the type of story you're writing. If you're writing a more serious story, have the characters not be 2D cutout tropes that are bleedingly cliched and have little to no personality. If you're writing a light hearted story where the characters themselves don't really matter, kinda like a kids story, feel free to make the characters as lite on detail as you like. In fact, overdoing the character can sometimes make it not fit in with the story as well. Mostly I'd say play it by ear. If it doesn't feel right, its not right.

-is it the plot?

Plot is rather like characters. How it goes depends on what sort of story you're writing. Golden rules, however, are to not make a convoluted mess out of it. Everything should always be within reason, and should be explained later. I.E; its fine to have something that makes no sense at some time, but you have to explain it later, and even then you should probably foreshadow it as well. No giving the character an amazing ability to fly for no reason then just writing it off as "He discovered he could fly". Nonono, that doesn't cut it unless you're writing a kids book. At the very least he should be foreshadowed as having powers that he still doesn't know all the secrets behind. Preferably something more substantial than that though.
Additionally; Under no circumstances should you break the rules of your universe. Your universe says you can't fly, but flying would be a really cool way out of this situation? NO. Do what humans do and find a way within your universe's laws that that person can fly, I.E: A flying machine like a plane or hot air balloon, and use that instead.

Of course these are obvious examples, but using actual examples is likely to ignite flame wars 'cause everyone's got an opinion on the Internet.

Anyway, best way to tell if your writing is poorly written or not is to read over it yourself and see if it sounds awkward, if it does - fix it - if it doesn't, pass it on to someone else to review. If they don't think it sounds awkward - cool. If they do - fix it. Repeat until you've got a broad range of opinions on it and most, if not all, people think it sounds fine.

Really though, most of this stuff is rather obvious. If it feels even slightly awkward, or like it wouldn't happen IRL or IRL if IRL was the world in your story, then it shouldn't be there. Unless that's intentional, but you've got to play that card carefully as well.

If everyone sees something coming, it isn't well written.

I wouldn't agree with this. If its meant to be a really major twist that people shouldn't be coming, yeah, then its poorly written if its obvious.
If its a minor twist, it doesn't matter too much. If its more of a cliched story like a retelling of Cinderella where people are supposed to see what's coming, its well written.
It really depends what type of story it is as to whether people should be able to see it coming or not.

 

[DoPo]

- Facts aren't right (5+5=12!)

'Do you remember,' he went on, 'writing in your diary, "Freedom is the freedom to say that five plus five make ten"?'

'Yes,' said the audience.

The bad writer held up his two hands, their backs towards the audience, with the all fingers extended.

'How many fingers am I holding up, audience?'

'Ten.'

'And if I say that it is not ten but twelve -- then how many?'

'Ten.'

The word ended in a gasp of pain. The needle of the dial had shot up to fifty-five. The sweat had sprung out all over the audience. The air tore into their lungs and issued again in deep groans which even by clenching teeth they could not stop. The bad writer watched them, the ten fingers still extended. He drew back the lever. This time the pain was only slightly eased.

'How many fingers, audience?'

'Ten.'

The needle went up to sixty.

'How many fingers, audience?'

'Ten! Ten! What else can I say? Ten!'

The needle must have risen again, but they did not look at it. The heavy, stern face and the ten fingers filled their vision. The fingers stood up before their eyes like pillars, enormous, blurry, and seeming to vibrate, but unmistakably ten.

'How many fingers, audience?'

'Ten! Stop it, stop it! How can you go on? Ten! Ten!'

'How many fingers, audience?'

'Twelve! Twelve! Twelve!'

'No, audience, that is no use. You are lying. You still think there are ten. How many fingers, please?'

'Ten! Twelve! Ten! Anything you like. Only stop it, stop the pain!'

Abruptly they were sitting up with the bad writer's arm round his shoulders. They had perhaps lost consciousness for a few seconds. The bonds that had held their bodies down were loosened. They felt very cold, they were shaking uncontrollably, their teeth were chattering, the tears were rolling down their cheeks. For a moment they clung to the bad writer like a baby, curiously comforted by the heavy arm round their shoulders. They had the feeling that the bad writer was their protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was the bad writer who would save them from it.

'You are slow learners, audience,' said the bad writer gently.

'How can we help it?' they blubbered. 'How can we help seeing what is in front of our eyes? Five and five are ten.'

'Sometimes, audience. Sometimes they are twelve. Sometimes they are eight. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.'

 

[BrassButtons]

I suggest getting yourself a copy of The Elements of Style by Strunk and White. It's hard to find a better source on what separates good writing styles from bad ones.

Something else you might want to check out is author Jenny Trout's blog [http://jenniferarmintrout.blogspot.com/p/jen-reads-50-shades-of-grey.html] where she's been doing chapter summaries of the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy. The books are a great example of bad writing, and Jen explains just what makes them fail so hard (she's also hilarious to read. But the books do have adult content, and Jen does write for mature audiences, so take that into account.) As a bonus, Jen is now releasing her own story in the same genre as 50 Shade (that's "BDSM romance" not "Twilight fanfiction") for free, so there's a well-written story for comparison.

Unfortunately the question of what separates good writing from bad is very complex. Writing is a craft--there's a LOT that goes into it. So find some resources on the subject (there are lots of books on the topic and probably several websites as well) and study up.

 

[shrekfan246]

When it comes to dialogue, there's a certain balance that needs to be struck between exposition dumping and fluffy banter. Too little and the characters won't feel developed, but too much and it'll feel tedious to try going through all of it.

good advice!

when I think about it, I think uncharted is kind of badly written.....as Ive said before 99% of the dialouge is sarcastic banter which is tedious when theres nothing to contrast too...the only 2 times I ever found somthing actually funny said in an uncharted game was in U3 a charachter refers to the villan as "scary poppins" and at the end when sully screams "THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS" as the level collapses

and in ME3 the charachters would (annoyingly) go into codex mode and spew out facts that the player SHOULD REALLY KNOW at this point in the series

Uncharted is another one of those "your mileage may vary" games, when it comes down to it. It's no exemplary piece of writing in video games, but there's nothing particularly offensive about it either. The character of Nathan Drake is a sarcastic tosser, but there is a reason for that and the worst part of the writing is that it never really pays off in the end. If we had seen Nathan Drake, beaten and broken and behind his mask of sarcasm, it would have elevated him to the realm of a legitimately good video game character. I mean, the closest thing is the whole desert section of Uncharted 3, and Drake goes right back to normal afterwards, doesn't he?

But the writing itself is another one of those Devil May Cry-esque situations, because while a lot of people hate Drake's character because of how nonchalant he is in combat, I generally found his quips to be amusing - Partly because staunch, manly, grimacing, grunting men in power armor is something that's been done to death and it was nice to see a protagonist that tries to stay lighthearted in the face of certain danger. Also, I guess the frequency of his sarcasm was just lower for me than literally everyone else on the planet, because I hardly ever heard him doing anything more than "Haha!" or other such short exclamations.

And the Mass Effect franchise as a whole is a large offender of giving certain characters overblown exposition dumps. Particularly Liara.

 

[Chairman Miaow]

One thing that can turn me right off a book is unnecessary detail, or huge chunks of it at once. Don't spend a page describing someone if they have one line, and if they are worth describing, generally you have enough time to break the description up a bit. Conversely, make sure you describe important details. For example, a good crime thriller is one in which it's entirely possible to work out the criminals identity at the same time or before the lead. If we aren't told a detail crucial to the case until after the criminal is caught, that's bad writing.

 

[BeeGeenie]

Edgar Allan Poe, King of the Short Story, felt that everything that is in a story should be there for a reason. Which means that unnecessary details, tangential loose-ends, and pretty much anything that makes your story drag is an example of bad writing.

One very clear example that always bugged me is the French fairy-tale "Bluebeard." The story itself is interesting, but the titular villain's blue beard... is completely pointless! There's never any explanation as to why his beard is blue, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the central theme of the plot. His beard could have been any color, and it wouldn't have changed anything except the stupid title of an otherwise pretty good story.

That's just one example of one particular kind of bad writing. There are many ways to make writing good or bad.

For the record, I suck at writing dialog.

 

[trollnystan]

[sub][sub]Must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101's spelling, must not say Vault101'spelling.[/sub][/sub]

Vault101's spelling!


SNIPPED REST

Damn it Daystar, you ninja'd me!

OT: To answer your question... dialogue, characters, and plot can be poorly written, often at the same time. My own way to check dialogue I've written - or in other books/games as well for that matter - is to read it out loud. If it sounds weird, stilted, and/or unnatural then it's poorly written. Characters that blend into each other, where you could literally substitute one for the other and no one would know the difference, is an example of bad character writing.

Bad spelling/grammar however doesn't mean that the story itself is bad, it just means it'll take the person reading it longer to understand and get into it - which isn't a good thing. So make sure you have a friend to act editor for you; every writer needs one.

 

[ShindoL Shill]

Generally, it means stuff like character saying things that no person would say, or grammatical errors.
It can also mean a poorly written character, who would be unrealistic in terms of characterisation, or just plain Mary-Suish.
Then there's poorly written plots (i.e., bad pacing, bad or conflicting descriptions, plot holes, unresolved plotlines, lack of build-up or context).

Also:

Something else you might want to check out is author Jenny Trout's blog [http://jenniferarmintrout.blogspot.com/p/jen-reads-50-shades-of-grey.html] where she's been doing chapter summaries of the 50 Shades of Grey trilogy. The books are a great example of bad writing, and Jen explains just what makes them fail so hard

This.