What does the Confederate flag represent to you?

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emeraldrafael

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Aur0ra145 said:
Well, I'll keep the offer in mind. You ever make it up to PA, let me know and I'll treat you to... something. cant drink for three years (least not legally).

And yeah, I know. I saw all that Texas hype with wanting to be your own country.

Unfortunately, PA doesnt have alot of awesome flags. But thats oka. We pride ourselves in just having a ton of awesome (and important) battles. There's atleast three battle sites in PA where the war for what is now the United States of America was fought and won.

<spoiler=Though our cities have some rather sensible flags>http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/u/us-pa~pb.gifhttp://images.wikia.com/icehockey/images/3/34/Pittsburgh_Flag.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Harrisburg_PA_city_flag.gif/300px-Harrisburg_PA_city_flag.gifhttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5d/Flag_of_Philadelphia%2C_Pennsylvania.svg
 

Nagisa94

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A nation ruled by a slave holding aristocracy who forced the lower classes to fight a war that they really had no reason to fight and dressed it all up as a war to protect their "culture" of sorts from a progressive government of liberals and intellectuals (from their time at least, I do understand that Lincoln was racist but at least he wanted to abolish slavery) who only wanted to abolish the enslavement of their fellow human beings and to unite their nation under one banner again.
Wow... that was a long sentence.
 

Irony's Acolyte

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To me the Confederate Battle Flag mainly represents the area in the U.S. commonly referred to as the "South". That area has a very distinct culture within the U.S. Being a bit history buff I will also associate it with the C.S.A.

Obviously alot of racist groups use it as "their" flag, but it's much the way that Mussolini's Fascist Italy liked to conjure up images of the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany evoking "Germanic" traditions. They are descendants of these things true, but their connection is not as close as they claim.
creager91 said:
Racism, thats all the flag represents to me. Not trying to offend anyone here but the South seceded because of racism. I'm not saying you should be ashamed to be from those states or live in them, but to sport the flag? To me thats racism. You're flying the flag of the soldiers who fought and died so they could keep "ownership" of another human being. I know many Southerners try to say the Civil war was not really about racism and I don't know what your education has taught you, but slavery was the driving force behind the South Confederacy.
The Civil War wasn't driven by racism. It was driven by the argument on how powerful the individual state governments had in relation to the Federal government. There's a reason why it was the Confederate States of America as opposed to the Federal states of America. The Southern states wanted more independence from the Federal government and had for some time. There had been several resolutions saying that an individual state had the right to overturn a federal decision within it's borders. These were ultamitly used by the Southern states to "give" themselves the right to secede from the Union. Lincoln dissputed these claims and thus the Civil War took place. In fact it was Lincoln's strenghting of the Federal government that helped to create the U.S.A. we know today. Before then the title U.S.A. made sense because it was more of union of seperate states (not to be confused with their common American usage today) is the sense of "The State of Britin" or "The State of Russia". Originally the U.S. was supposed to be a confederacy (Hence the Articles of Confederation). The slow centralization of the government wasn't universally supported and eventually came to the front when the Southern States felt they'd had enough.
While slavery was part of the reason why the Civil War happened it was not the whole part. If you were to ask the average Southern during that time why the Southern states had seceded they probably would have answered in a similar manner: "Because the Northern States were trying to oppress them". The average Southern didn't have slaves, only the most wealthy could even afford to own them (the slave trade had ended much earlier and keeping a person alive and work-worthy out of your own pocket is expensive). Why would a poor farmer want to support something that had no impact on his life? Hell, there were even several Northern states that still had slavery at the time (Maryland and Missouri are two). The only reason why the war is so closely linked to the issue of slavery is due to Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation, which only banned slavery in southern states. The Emancipation Proclamation wasn't some moral law being brought about, it was a clever piece of political maneuvering that helped to dissuade the C.S.A.'s potential allies (Britain and France) from joining due to the fact that by that time both had banned slavery within their motherland. I don't know what your education taught you, but the reason why slavery is so closely linked to Confederacy is the same reason why the Holocaust is linked with Nazi Germany; at the time the war wasn't being fought to oppose it. It's only later that these practices were used to make the victors seem all the more righteous.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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Irony said:
To me the Confederate Battle Flag mainly represents the area in the U.S. commonly referred to as the "South". That area has a very distinct culture within the U.S. Being a bit history buff I will also associate it with the C.S.A.

Obviously alot of racist groups use it as "their" flag, but it's much the way that Mussolini's Fascist Italy liked to conjure up images of the Roman Empire or Nazi Germany evoking "Germanic" traditions. They are descendants of these things true, but their connection is not as close as they claim.
creager91 said:
Racism, thats all the flag represents to me. Not trying to offend anyone here but the South seceded because of racism. I'm not saying you should be ashamed to be from those states or live in them, but to sport the flag? To me thats racism. You're flying the flag of the soldiers who fought and died so they could keep "ownership" of another human being. I know many Southerners try to say the Civil war was not really about racism and I don't know what your education has taught you, but slavery was the driving force behind the South Confederacy.
The Civil War wasn't driven by racism. It was driven by the argument on how powerful the individual state governments had in relation to the Federal government.....
Not only was the start of the civil war about slavery (feared reversal of chattlehood policy), the confederacy was founded on racism; the idea that black people were in their rightful position to the superior white race because that's how God wanted it and needed to break away like the founding fathers intended them to do under that tyrant Lincoln. It's in their consitution and spoken about by their vice president.

"States rights" is a smoke screen to attempt to obscure the real reason. Just accept it and move on.

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions ? African slavery as it exists among us ? the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically...

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

-Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, Cornerstone Speech, March 21, 1861.

/Discussion on start of civil war

 

emeraldrafael

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timeadept said:
... just because they felt like the other side was going to waltz through and kill them anyway (ahem, General Sherman...). ...
To be fair, that is what war is about. By the time Sherman made his march, it was basically about showing the South that the the Union was tired of pussyfooting and was going to end the war. What he did is called Total war, and its pretty much what you do when you bomb a country's plants for manufacturing. You close down anything and take their will to resist away.

Mikkaddo said:
also, to people like the NAACP it represents Racism because if you haven't noticed, there's been a lot less of it since the civil rights movement. To the point now, where groups like the NAACP are having to manufacture most of the racism they "find" so they can still have a job . . .

remember, a soldier is only a soldier as long as there's a war to fight, or training to be done. If the very fact of war itself suddenly dies . . . they have no job left to do. The same is right for these civil rights groups. There's so LITTLE racism left ESPECIALLY in america, that they're almost out of a job.
I wouldnt say that. There's definitely subliminal racism still in America. Though its more getting about Class instead of Race.

But you can still see it. There's still a lot of racial profiling, and the idea of interracial marrying (especially between white and black) is frowned upon. The reception the children of the marriage especially.

Thats not to say that alot of this attention the NAACP raises is groundbreaking and trend setting, but America is far from where we like to think it is. We can just justify it and say, "well... its not like they're still picking cotton, or only count as 3/5s of a person, or cant vote."
 

Jodah

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Most people who fly it do it because of racism. That being said from a historical point of view, the flag is an important symbol. It represents a time when a major political, economic, and moral issue actually tore this country apart. It is a symbol of a time when people fought against their own family members because of their beliefs (I'm not getting into the draft stuff for simplicity sake).

It is important to remember as it puts our current issues in perspective. I, for one, cannot see us going to war with each other over gay marriage or abortion. Thats not to say those issues aren't important but maybe they aren't quite as important as people (from either side mind you) would have us believe.
 

bl4ckh4wk64

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Jun 11, 2010
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The confederate flag represents the south. Contrary to belief, the south didn't represent slavery. Thus the confederate flag didn't represent slavery. Also contrary to belief the south didn't secede because of racism or slavery, they did it because they lost all political power. Not one southern vote went towards Abraham Lincoln, yet he was still elected as leader of the country. The south didn't actually feel hate for black men and women. Like every non-white person, they weren't even seen as able to take care of themselves. This was common sentiment in both the south AND THE NORTH. Hell, the North didn't evencare about slavery. The workers in the north wanted to unionize and northern factory owners didnt want that. They thought about it, and realized that freed slaves would make an amazing working class. Because these factory owners had the power to control much of the political processes in America, they managed to elect a president they knew would want to free the slaves. Hell, most of the Northerners had never even seen a black man, they couldn't care less about them. Hell, the Ghettysburg address wasn't even about freeing slaves. It basically said that the slaves would be free if they rebelled against their owners. Tactically speaking, it gave the South two fronts to worry about. Yes, it did free them, but that was only because the North wanted to find a way to undermine the Southern military.
 

squintzepalladoris

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From Texas here. To me the flag represents my pride to be from the southern United States. The American civil war and slavery in America was a long time ago, and i couldn't really care less about the why's and why nots of the war. I'll try not to go into a whole rant here, but it pisses me off when people condemn something (be it a flag, word or what have you) because they say it means one thing, and because THEY say it means THAT, it can't possibly have any other meaning to anyone else.
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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bl4ckh4wk64 said:
The confederate flag represents the south. Contrary to belief, the south didn't represent slavery.
Yes it did. It represented a nation founded on the idea blacks were ment to be slaves to whites, and plainly said slavery was the main reason for the civil war by the Confederate vice president.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.268963-What-does-the-Confederate-flag-represent-to-you?page=4#10313988
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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squintzepalladoris said:
From Texas here. To me the flag represents my pride to be from the southern United States. The American civil war and slavery in America was a long time ago, and i couldn't really care less about the why's and why nots of the war. I'll try not to go into a whole rant here, but it pisses me off when people condemn something (be it a flag, word or what have you) because they say it means one thing, and because THEY say it means THAT, it can't possibly have any other meaning to anyone else.
The confederacy was founded on the subervience of blacks and that flag represented that nation. A failed nation that killed American troops who were fighting under the American flag, not that traitor flag.

To be proud of that flag is to be proud of one of the worst chapters in American history. If you want to be proud of the south, pick a different flag.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.268963-What-does-the-Confederate-flag-represent-to-you?page=4#10313988
 

Plurralbles

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creager91 said:
Plurralbles said:
creager91 said:
Racism, thats all the flag represents to me. Not trying to offend anyone here but the South seceded because of racism. I'm not saying you should be ashamed to be from those states or live in them, but to sport the flag? To me thats racism. You're flying the flag of the soldiers who fought and died so they could keep "ownership" of another human being. I know many Southerners try to say the Civil war was not really about racism and I don't know what your education has taught you, but slavery was the driving force behind the South Confederacy.
I dont' mind that angle entirely, but it was more the overriding question of just how much the fed controleld the states. Be it for slavery or otherwise.

and if you're going to spout drivel about how it's all about slavery entirely- as if it was all about, "is that ****** a ****** or human?" then you're not giving much thought into it.
I will say this as this would be my bias: Coming from the Dayton area in Ohio the only people I have seen proudly bear the confederate flag have also been incredibly racist and ignorant. So I stand by saying the war was about slavery but I will admit that my passion and intolerance for the group I just described (coincidentally that is my only intolerance, and I can hang out with these guys as long as they don't talk politics or race with me)

Side Note: Im white which may also be a bias
so what, are you some bleeding heart apologetic-because-you're-white person? That sickens me. "my only intolerance"... lol, I highly doubt that.

What pisses me off the most is that my history/government teacher- one of the best teachers we have in our town's system- had a confederate flag in his window. Some guy complained about it and he had to take it down. The civil war is one of the most important things to happen to the States and to ban pieces from it from display is stupid. Who's the more ignorant and prejudice one, the person wanting it to be taken down or someone who teaches the context with which it flew and continues to be flown?
 

Nurb

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Dec 9, 2008
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Plurralbles said:
creager91 said:
Plurralbles said:
creager91 said:
Racism, thats all the flag represents to me. Not trying to offend anyone here but the South seceded because of racism. I'm not saying you should be ashamed to be from those states or live in them, but to sport the flag? To me thats racism. You're flying the flag of the soldiers who fought and died so they could keep "ownership" of another human being. I know many Southerners try to say the Civil war was not really about racism and I don't know what your education has taught you, but slavery was the driving force behind the South Confederacy.
I dont' mind that angle entirely, but it was more the overriding question of just how much the fed controleld the states. Be it for slavery or otherwise.

and if you're going to spout drivel about how it's all about slavery entirely- as if it was all about, "is that ****** a ****** or human?" then you're not giving much thought into it.
I will say this as this would be my bias: Coming from the Dayton area in Ohio the only people I have seen proudly bear the confederate flag have also been incredibly racist and ignorant. So I stand by saying the war was about slavery but I will admit that my passion and intolerance for the group I just described (coincidentally that is my only intolerance, and I can hang out with these guys as long as they don't talk politics or race with me)

Side Note: Im white which may also be a bias
so what, are you some bleeding heart apologetic-because-you're-white person? That sickens me. "my only intolerance"... lol, I highly doubt that.

What pisses me off the most is that my history/government teacher- one of the best teachers we have in our town's system- had a confederate flag in his window. Some guy complained about it and he had to take it down. The civil war is one of the most important things to happen to the States and to ban pieces from it from display is stupid. Who's the more ignorant and prejudice one, the person wanting it to be taken down or someone who teaches the context with which it flew and continues to be flown?
Take a peek at the confederate vice president and the constitution that flag represents:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.268963-What-does-the-Confederate-flag-represent-to-you?page=4#10313988

"The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions ? African slavery as it exists among us ? the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the 'rock upon which the old Union would split.' He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically...

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition."

-Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens, Cornerstone Speech, March 21, 1861.