What does the Confederate flag represent to you?
- Thread starter Baron Von Evil Satan
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aaron sorkin said it best, through the mouth of rafiki from the lion king (it was the best show on TV in 199-2000): "in the history of the south, there's much to celebrate. and that flag is a desecration of all of it. it's a banner of hatred and separatism. it's a banner of ignorance and violence and a war that pitted brother against brother, and to ask young black men and women, young jewish men and women, asians, native americans...to ask americans to walk beneath its shadow is a humiliation of irreducible proportions. and we all know it."
there's nothing inherently wrong with a confederacy of states working under a loose federal government. i can't honestly say that it wouldn't work better than what the US has going now. but that flag that represents the ugliest time in US history has, in my opinion, no place anywhere within its shores. i'll tolerate anyone who wants to wave it, because this is a free country. but i will find it difficult to hold respect for anyone who says they stand for what it stands for.
there's nothing inherently wrong with a confederacy of states working under a loose federal government. i can't honestly say that it wouldn't work better than what the US has going now. but that flag that represents the ugliest time in US history has, in my opinion, no place anywhere within its shores. i'll tolerate anyone who wants to wave it, because this is a free country. but i will find it difficult to hold respect for anyone who says they stand for what it stands for.
I have an outsider's point of view of the Confederate flag. I only see it in Dukes of Hazard and in some movies based in the American South (like the setting, accents and subtitles explaining the location isn't enough). I gather the flag isn't banned in the U.S. like the Swastika is in Germany.
I don't think it means anything as bad as a street lined with black and white Swastikas on red banners or anything.
I don't think it means anything as bad as a street lined with black and white Swastikas on red banners or anything.
Dukes of Hazard, of course. Also white southern pride(Texan here).
The war arose out of cultural differences and issues of secession. The only person you're kidding is yourself if you think the average Northerner cared about slaves in the South. It also had very little to do with why the South fought(it was merely one of the many irreconcilable differences between the two sides). It was widely known on both sides that Lincoln had no intention of banning slavery. Abolitionists were a radical fringe minority at best.
Is that what they're teaching in schools these days? So very, very sad. I think a quote from Ulysses S. Grant is in order. "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side"creager91 said:
The war arose out of cultural differences and issues of secession. The only person you're kidding is yourself if you think the average Northerner cared about slaves in the South. It also had very little to do with why the South fought(it was merely one of the many irreconcilable differences between the two sides). It was widely known on both sides that Lincoln had no intention of banning slavery. Abolitionists were a radical fringe minority at best.
When I see the Confederate flag, I think of what the Confederacy [really] fought for: State's Rights.
It wasn't really about slavery until Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.
There's nothing wrong with State's Rights.
There is nothing wroth with the Confederate flag.
Sadly, though, many morons fly it. However, that isn't to say that an educated, intelligent person cannot fly it. Hell, my US history teacher proudly flies the Confederate flag, next to the US flag and Virginia's state flag, and I can assure you that he is not a bigoted moron. After all, he DOES teach online courses at a college and is married to a hispanic woman.
Edit:
Also: The northerners were racist as hell also.
It wasn't really about slavery until Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.
There's nothing wrong with State's Rights.
There is nothing wroth with the Confederate flag.
Sadly, though, many morons fly it. However, that isn't to say that an educated, intelligent person cannot fly it. Hell, my US history teacher proudly flies the Confederate flag, next to the US flag and Virginia's state flag, and I can assure you that he is not a bigoted moron. After all, he DOES teach online courses at a college and is married to a hispanic woman.
Edit:
WRONG. They suceeded because of the idea of States Rights. Southerners, who were rural in their lifestyle didn't want to be ruled by Northerners from an industrial society. They felt like they weren't understood. The idea was that the South should rule the South and the North should rule the North. You know... kind of like what the Colonies declared Independence because of - They did not want to be ruled by the English, who were living a world away in Europe. Now, It seems to have been spinned to be racism. That, my friend, is bullcock.creager91 said:
Also: The northerners were racist as hell also.
If they abolished slavery in one fell swoop, what would it have done to their economies? One HUGE reason they seceded was because the press kept pushing that Lincoln would abolish slavery, no questions asked. That's why the South didn't vote for Lincoln. However, there were WAY more Northerners alive, so Lincoln got in. The South figured that their economy was going to the shitter because Lincoln would abolish it right then and there (although he denied this). In the spirit of States Rights and to preserve their economy (and way of life), they seceded.BobDobolina said:
They viewed it as oppressive because every news group in the south labeled it that way, the common man had no say when they decided to break apart from the north. And saying that the common man didn't support slavery is ridiculous, the entire economy was based on slavery. The common man didn't want to see people they thought of as inferior to them gain rights. To them, it was like seeing a monkey get the same amount of rights as a them, to them, slaves were just like cattle.bl4ckh4wk64 said:
People that fly the confederate flag like to love the southern way of life, they just like to "forget" about that whole slavery part
Bear with me here, this is a long one, but I think you need to read this.Baron Von Evil Satan said:
A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.
"In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States."
"For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States."
"They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides."
"They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose."
"And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States."
"For years past this abolition organization has been actively sowing the seeds of discord through the Union, and has rendered the federal congress the arena for spreading firebrands and hatred between the slave-holding and non-slave-holding States."
"They have, through the mails and hired emissaries, sent seditious pamphlets and papers among us to stir up servile insurrection and bring blood and carnage to our firesides."
"They have sent hired emissaries among us to burn our towns and distribute arms and poison to our slaves for the same purpose."
"And, finally, by the combined sectional vote of the seventeen non-slave-holding States, they have elected as president and vice-president of the whole confederacy two men whose chief claims to such high positions are their approval of these long continued wrongs, and their pledges to continue them to the final consummation of these schemes for the ruin of the slave-holding States."
"We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.
That in this free government *all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights* [emphasis in the original]; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding states."
All of these passages are pulled straight from the Texas Declaration of Causes [http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Texas] for secession without editing or removal from their context. The American Civil War was fought explicitly for the protection of slavery and slave-states by the South. There has been a concerted effort, since the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 60s, to rebrand the civil war to be more, or exclusively, about states rights than slavery, but I'm afraid the facts simply do not bear this out at all. While the North may not have been fighting at first to remove slavery, at most, any "States' rights" being fought for by the Confederacy were about the rights of a state to decide if it should allow and promote slavery.
The confederate flag is about Southern fear of, and resistance to, outside interference with their racism. "It's about states' rights/history" are the lines invented to give an excuse to fly it, but it's no more true than "teach both sides/we're a theory, too" is for teaching religious creationism (aka Intelligent Design) in science classes.
PinochetIsMyBro said:
Troublesome Lagomorph said:
My previous post is for your benefit as well, I see.bl4ckh4wk64 said:
Rednecks, Hicks and KKK members using it intimidate people. Also represents a massive spectre from Americas past still making it presence felt.
I think the heart of the issue is that it's an ANTI-AMERICAN symbol. Just like with socialism, people lose their shit over it for no logical reason.
OT: To me, it represents the independent and rebellious spirit of the southern US. However, it also represents an outdated method of thinking, and ultimately, failure.
OT: To me, it represents the independent and rebellious spirit of the southern US. However, it also represents an outdated method of thinking, and ultimately, failure.
The Confederate flag, to me, does not necessarily represent racism.
What I do feel it represents is a blatant insult to the United States of America. Every single state, whether southern or northern, is a part of a single country. The Confederate flag represents an upstart coalition of states that tried to secede from the Union. I don't care whether it was for slavery, economics, states' rights, or because they hated those goddamn yanks.
Waving that flag is akin to waving the Mexican flag at a rally protesting immigration/deportation laws. If you're waving the Mexican flag while protesting the government of the USA, your credibility as a citizen of the USA goes right out the damn window. Why should we listen to someone complaining about living in America when they're displaying a different country's colors? If you like that country so much, get the hell out of America and go back to it.
Similarly, if you proudly display your Confederate flag as brazenly as possible, my first thought is that you wish you didn't live in the USA right now, but the Confederate States of America. Last time I checked, that country didn't exist. Confederate flag-wavers are proclaiming their pride in identifying with a non-existent country that fought and lost against the USA, nearly damaging the cohesion of the country beyond repair. I don't care if you "wish you'da won the Civil War". You live in America. Wave the flag of the country you're living in, not the long-dead upstart government that nearly tore the nation apart.
What I do feel it represents is a blatant insult to the United States of America. Every single state, whether southern or northern, is a part of a single country. The Confederate flag represents an upstart coalition of states that tried to secede from the Union. I don't care whether it was for slavery, economics, states' rights, or because they hated those goddamn yanks.
Waving that flag is akin to waving the Mexican flag at a rally protesting immigration/deportation laws. If you're waving the Mexican flag while protesting the government of the USA, your credibility as a citizen of the USA goes right out the damn window. Why should we listen to someone complaining about living in America when they're displaying a different country's colors? If you like that country so much, get the hell out of America and go back to it.
Similarly, if you proudly display your Confederate flag as brazenly as possible, my first thought is that you wish you didn't live in the USA right now, but the Confederate States of America. Last time I checked, that country didn't exist. Confederate flag-wavers are proclaiming their pride in identifying with a non-existent country that fought and lost against the USA, nearly damaging the cohesion of the country beyond repair. I don't care if you "wish you'da won the Civil War". You live in America. Wave the flag of the country you're living in, not the long-dead upstart government that nearly tore the nation apart.
To me? It represents states' rights, and in a more symbolic nature, a unified flag that represents a more independent less-centralized form of power to oppose the American flag, which in my mind represents one large centralized form of power. It's a duality thing, which is exactly why my old class ring has an American flag on one side, and a confederate flag on the other.
The civil war was not fought over slavery alone. The people who claim that slavery was the only reason, or that it wasn't a reason or all, are wrong. It ties in heavily, but it's certainly not the only reason. That, however, shouldn't matter. Today, nobody here supports slavery (Or, no sane person, anyway. Hell, even the KKK doesn't go around saying it should be reinstated).
As a result of this, I feel the flag can keep all it's other meanings without being considered a "hey everybody, let's make slavery legal again!" symbol. Because, let's face it, a vast majority of people who use it don't support slavery, or even racism. They use it for other reasons- mainly southern ideals and occasionally other minor things, like a symbol of southern rock or what have you.
I would not call it an anti-American symbol. The CSA might have been anti-American, but they were following American ideals to the letter, even if for all the wrong reasons. They felt they weren't being represented, they felt trade policies heavily favoured the industrial north over the rural south, and they feared things would only get worse for them. So, they did the American thing to do- say "To hell with this, I'm leaving and making my own country". In all honesty, had I been alive at the time, I would have supported them if not for the whole slavery thing.
The civil war was not fought over slavery alone. The people who claim that slavery was the only reason, or that it wasn't a reason or all, are wrong. It ties in heavily, but it's certainly not the only reason. That, however, shouldn't matter. Today, nobody here supports slavery (Or, no sane person, anyway. Hell, even the KKK doesn't go around saying it should be reinstated).
As a result of this, I feel the flag can keep all it's other meanings without being considered a "hey everybody, let's make slavery legal again!" symbol. Because, let's face it, a vast majority of people who use it don't support slavery, or even racism. They use it for other reasons- mainly southern ideals and occasionally other minor things, like a symbol of southern rock or what have you.
I would not call it an anti-American symbol. The CSA might have been anti-American, but they were following American ideals to the letter, even if for all the wrong reasons. They felt they weren't being represented, they felt trade policies heavily favoured the industrial north over the rural south, and they feared things would only get worse for them. So, they did the American thing to do- say "To hell with this, I'm leaving and making my own country". In all honesty, had I been alive at the time, I would have supported them if not for the whole slavery thing.