What does this say about the public perception of science?

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McMullen

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So after reading this:

BOSTON, Jan. 24, 2013 (Reuters) ? After spending the weekend reading blog posts claiming that he was seeking an "extremely adventurous female human" to bear a cloned Neanderthal baby - which was news to him - Harvard geneticist George Church said it may be time for society to give some thought to scientific literacy.

Church became the subject of dozens of posts and tabloid newspaper articles calling him a "mad scientist" after giving an interview to the German magazine Der Spiegel.

In the interview, Church discussed the technical challenges scientists would face if they tried to clone a Neanderthal, though neither he nor the Der Spiegel article, which was presented as a question and answer exchange, said he intended to do so.

"Harvard professor seeks mother for cloned cave baby," read one headline, on the website of London's Daily Mail.

But Church explained on Wednesday that he was simply theorizing.

Still, the readiness of bloggers, journalists and readers to believe he was preparing an attempt to clone a Neanderthal, a species closely related to modern humans that went extinct some 30,000 years ago, led Church to ponder scientific literacy.

"The public should be able to detect cases where things seem implausible," Church said in an interview at his office at Harvard Medical School in Boston. "Everybody's fib detector should have been going off. They should have said, ?What? Who would believe this?' ... This really indicates that we should have scientific literacy."

Despite the spate of articles comparing him to the character in the book and movie "Jurassic Park" who attempts to open a theme park filled with living dinosaurs, Church said he plans to continue speaking publicly about his research, which focuses on using genes to treat and prevent disease.

Given the number of policy debates driven by science - from how to address climate change, to space exploration, to public health concerns - scientists should not back away from talking to the media, Church said.

"We really should get the public of the entire world to be able to detect the difference between a fact and a complete fantasy that has been created by the Internet," he said.

In the Der Spiegel article, which Church said reported his words accurately, and his recent book "Regenesis: How Synthetic Biology Will Reinvent Nature and Ourselves," Church theorized that studying cloned Neanderthals could help scientists better understand how the human mind works. Scientists have already extracted DNA from Neanderthal bones.

But such experiments would pose a host of ethical concerns - including how many Neanderthals would be created and whether they would be treated as mere study subjects or as beings with their own rights, Church said.

"I do want to connect the public to science because there are so many decisions to be made if the way they learn it, if they learn it faster by talking about Neanderthals than they did by getting rote learning in high school, that's great," he said.
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/bre90n057-us-usa-neanderthal-cloning/

I'm reminded of how people think scientists actually want to do stuff like this, or how they respond to every confirmation of an intuitive idea with "Well, duh, thanks for spending our money to answer that, Captain Obvious". I think the most disturbing was the suggestion that people like the Sandy Hook shooter should be "given to the scientists", as if scientists are like some James-Bond-Villain-style pet that a person can be thrown to for a grisly death.

How did the gap between what scientists are and what the public thinks they are get so wide? I'm really curious about what these people's reactions would be if they ever actually went to a thesis defense at their local college, or attended a conference, and saw what science is for themselves.
 

Hagi

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I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.

I can't say I've ever actually met an actual person who believed scientists to be James Bond style villains, outside of the internet of course. Whose claims as mister Church points out should be taken with many a grain of salt.
 

Colour Scientist

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Hagi said:
I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.

I can't say I've ever actually met an actual person who believed scientists to be James Bond style villains, outside of the internet of course. Whose claims as mister Church points out should be taken with many a grain of salt.
Yeah, the website of the London Daily Mail hardly represents public perception.

A lot of the blog posts were probably piss-takes too, the first one sounds like a lonely hearts ad.
 

kurupt87

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The media reported that the activation of the LHC at CERN could create a black hole.

Need more be said?
 

The Night Angel

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kurupt87 said:
The media reported that the activation of the LHC at CERN could create a black hole.

Need more be said?
Well, it's easier for the public to assume that there is something negative about such research, and then say it shouldn't be done; rather than admit that they don't understand it, and then go read up on it. It's laziness, and fear of the unknown.

Also, I have to agree with the others in that this hardly seems a fair representation of the public.
 

Esotera

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It's a failure of both the education system and scientists themselves, who don't really do enough to communicate their work to the general public. Also as most journalists suffer from both these factors and relay news to a large number of people that doesn't help.
 

Hagi

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TheKasp said:
Hagi said:
I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.

I can't say I've ever actually met an actual person who believed scientists to be James Bond style villains, outside of the internet of course. Whose claims as mister Church points out should be taken with many a grain of salt.
If I go by german aequivalents of Daily Mail and those bloggers (Die Bild) then I would disagree. Those sources have an influence on a many people and while you and me may look upon everything they write as BS - experience and events in Germany showed me that I am quite the minority. If Die Bild writes that person X is responsible for happening Y together with a number to call then I tell you: This results in a thousands of calls by people who seem to be... fucking retarded. And this is just the chunk that 'takes action into their own hands'. I see people of 30y+ reading those papers on daily basis when I sit in the bus, this damn paper is everywhere and... it has influence that is just sad.

*sigh* We have even a website that reports every bullshit that is posted in Der Bild. It gets updated several times a day with new stories...
I don't really consider thousands to be a very impressive amount of people out of a population of 82 million. Same goes for your experiences on the bus, it only takes a few people out of dozens to make it seem a certain paper is everywhere.

Even then, reading a newspaper doesn't automatically mean agreeing and believing everything written in it. Especially when it comes to tabloids like the one you mention the vast majority of readers probably aren't reading them for their scientific commentary. More likely they're being read for the topless pictures on the front page that Die Bild is apparently famous for.

The majority of people certainly aren't huge supporters of science with a good understanding of all the methods involved. But they're also not viewing science as some sort of boogeyman. The majority of people just don't give a shit. They're too busy with other things to form any opinion, be it positive or negative, on scientific developments.
 

Doclector

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As much as I'm a fan and a maker of films myself, I fear that science fiction may be to blame. It goes beyond believing a fairy tale, it's practically ingrained into our conciousness, from frankenstein to the fly, we have a long tradition of mad or even evil scientists in our fiction, or simply stories that can be summed up with the statement "HAS SCIENCE GONE TOO FAR?" Even when this doesn't happen, fiction has a habit of painting the scientist as cold and logical with little care for emotions or ethics as long as the cause is scientifically worthwhile.

These are questions worth exploring in fiction and most certainly, they've created some excellent works. But both for good fiction and to prevent stereotyping, there should be more depth to the characters than "I'M MAD/EVIL/UNCARING FOR SCIENCE!" and a story should explore issues of "going too far" on both sides of such arguments.

Still, whatever the cure for said stereotype, it exists now, and it's going to take a lot to shift that perception. Must be said though, it is not fully the blame of the people writing these stories, but the part of the audience taking far too much stock in them, copy-pasting "frankenstein" stereotypes onto any scientist they see. There is a responsibility in writers to encourage independent thought on issues rather than forcing a particular viewpoint, but ultimately, the audience must make the decision themselves to think more.

All this said, I am actually interested in how a successful neanderthal clone would be handled. A creature close to human, but out of it's own time, last handful of their kind. It throws up all sorts of interesting questions. How would we go about treating the physical and even more troubling mental issues of such a creature? We have never seen it's biology alive, and we have never treated the mental issues resulting from being part of an extinct species. They'd essentially be starting from square one. How much freedom should such a creature be allowed? Would it be considered dangerous, should it, considering it's place as an evolutionary dead end, be allowed to breed?

All a lot to think about, and all of it worth thinking about.
 

Thaluikhain

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ComradeJim270 said:
Hey everybody, I'd like to talk to you about the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide...
Heh, I like it when people try that but aren't as specific, and just say hydrogen oxide. Cause hydrogen peroxide can be quite dangerous.

...

As an aside, I wonder at the content of the articles with exciting headlines. Cause I can really imagine the Escapist having a news article with a headline like "Mad Scientist wants mother for his neanderthal baby" only to talk about him discussing if it's possible in the actual text.
 

thesilentman

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"We stand in awe at which we do not understand."

Funny, someone told me this yesterday and I'm reminded how it applies quite well to this. The reason that the public has such a perception of science is that no one's bothered to explain it properly. And no one's put it in a way that interests people.

Esotera said:
It's a failure of both the education system and scientists themselves, who don't really do enough to communicate their work to the general public. Also as most journalists suffer from both these factors and relay news to a large number of people that doesn't help.
It's kind of like that, but people can be shown knowledge. It's just up to them to accept it. Since we have such a portrayal of scientists in the general public's mind, it's going to be hard changing that perception. And that's not factoring the media at this point.
 

barbzilla

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Dec 6, 2010
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McMullen said:
snip

I'm reminded of how people think scientists actually want to do stuff like this, or how they respond to every confirmation of an intuitive idea with "Well, duh, thanks for spending our money to answer that, Captain Obvious". I think the most disturbing was the suggestion that people like the Sandy Hook shooter should be "given to the scientists", as if scientists are like some James-Bond-Villain-style pet that a person can be thrown to for a grisly death.

How did the gap between what scientists are and what the public thinks they are get so wide? I'm really curious about what these people's reactions would be if they ever actually went to a thesis defense at their local college, or attended a conference, and saw what science is for themselves.
The short answer to your question is the Media portrays them as such, and people being natural followers took to that information and it went from meme, to concept, and now to popular belief. This is what happens, look at the NRA now, it is in the meme/concept stages of being nothing but a bunch of gun toting rednecks who want to shoot all black people. In reality they are a political group who supports the second amendment, but because of the extremists being the only ones getting any air time, they look like a bunch of right wing nut jobs. Same thing with video games, though it is currently in the meme stages (actually I think meme is a poor word choice, I will try to find a better one later).

The reality is that the Media only gives us News that it thinks will sell. Most of the news that sells is bad news. So often when we see a doctor or scientist in the media, they are painted in a horrible light. The general population eventually forms a developed response to those professions.
 

barbzilla

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Hagi said:
I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.

I can't say I've ever actually met an actual person who believed scientists to be James Bond style villains, outside of the internet of course. Whose claims as mister Church points out should be taken with many a grain of salt.
Nope it is not the entirety of the public, it is the lowest common denominator that we are dealing with. The problem is, they are also the most common type of person, so the media sells their news to those types of people. Just look at election coverage, they don't advertise to the people who are actually researching the candidates. They advertise to the people who watch the news to learn who they should vote for. These are the people that believe everything they hear on the news and everything they read in the newspaper. In short, the idiots of the world. The same people who post on youtube and the "alternative" news sources.
 

Hagi

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barbzilla said:
Hagi said:
I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.

I can't say I've ever actually met an actual person who believed scientists to be James Bond style villains, outside of the internet of course. Whose claims as mister Church points out should be taken with many a grain of salt.
Nope it is not the entirety of the public, it is the lowest common denominator that we are dealing with. The problem is, they are also the most common type of person, so the media sells their news to those types of people. Just look at election coverage, they don't advertise to the people who are actually researching the candidates. They advertise to the people who watch the news to learn who they should vote for. These are the people that believe everything they hear on the news and everything they read in the newspaper. In short, the idiots of the world. The same people who post on youtube and the "alternative" news sources.
Erm... No...

That's not how distributions of intelligence work. The idiots of the world make up about as large a percentage as the geniuses of the world. They're not the most common type of person.

Tabloids and such sell to this type of person because they're easily pleased and influenced. But I don't believe it needs saying that tabloids are hardly representative of all media.

The most common type of person is entirely average with an IQ of 100. Neither an idiot nor a genius. Neither believing everything nor performing extensive research. Just average.
 

Lieju

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wombat_of_war said:
what will bring in viewers more? scientist has Q and A discussing what would be needed to theoretically clone a neandathal or scientist seeks woman to birth clone of a cave man.

it doesnt matter whats accurate its what brings in the people and revenue
This.

I have family working in entertainment and news, and they have countless stories of how they had to try making a story more 'exciting'. Some news-sources are worse than others in this respect, obviously.

Also, the reporters usually aren't the experts on the fields...

but in a case of something like this, it seemslike they had a slow newsday and decided to make news.

Hagi said:
Tabloids and such sell to this type of person because they're easily pleased and influenced. But I don't believe it needs saying that tabloids are hardly representative of all media.

The most common type of person is entirely average with an IQ of 100. Neither an idiot nor a genius. Neither believing everything nor performing extensive research. Just average.
Also, not everyone who reads these kinds of papers believes everything they say.
A lot of people read them just to be amused, or because they believe there might be something true in them, or that they represent a different viewpoint, or simply people who want to know what's happening in the world but are bored by 'real' news.

Hagi said:
I'm not certain a bunch of rabid, drooling, mentally deficient bloggers and tabloid journalists should be mistaken for the general public.
Eh, as a someone who knows a lot of journalists, they aren't dumb. Rather, they aren't experts on every field, and more importantly, they can be under pressure to produce entertainment and stuff that sells rather than news.
The people writing for these kinds of tabloids tend to have a very poor image of the intelligence and knowledge of the people who read their stories, though.

I decided young that I wasn't going to seek a career in journalism, because of all the stories I've heard. And I can have issues with the ethical issues, but I don't think these people are dumb.

EDIT: Also, I think a lot of people in this thread are confusing 'intelligence' with 'knowledge'. If you aren't knowledgeable on a field, (and don't care that much), you can accept things that are wrong, even if you're intelligent.
 

triggrhappy94

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Headline: "Havard geneticist wants to breed 'fib detector' into humans"
"Havard scientist want to open 'Neanderthal Park' with character from the book and movie, 'Jurassic Park'. Tickets on sale this Spring"

I wouldn't say this is necessarily bad public reception, just dumb people being dumb.