What happened to Relic between DoW 1 and DoW 2?

[The Madman]

But anyway, as with most discussions on internet forums, this is a waste of time because you're not going to change my opinion and i'm not going to change yours.

Awww, that's no fun. You mean you're not going to rend flesh and tear bone in a frenzy of rage that someone else should *dare* have a different opinion than you? Psh!

I would do it for you!

And I most certainly do own Starcraft. Bought it when it first came out, observe the glory of the original box in all its, err, glory. They simply don't make em like they used to. Those stupid DVD cases, while practical, are so boring. (Bonus points to anyone who can spot which game I have two copies of in that picture!)

And I know I'm simplifying greatly, but you must admit that the Rock Paper Scissors is the basis for all of the rts genre and that it can be painfully obvious sometimes in older rts.

Also I felt Company of Heroes offered many features that could have made DoW2 an epic win. The vehicle damage in CoH would have been an awesome feature for a Warhammer game, as would garrisonable buildings. The ability to build trench works and stuff was cool.

You can garrison buildings in Dawn of War 2, and there's also limited vehicle damage. Although considering there's only two real tanks in the game, four maybe if you also count the fire prism and the Rhino, it doesn't really come into effect often.

No trenches though. I'll bet whenever they add an expansion with Imperial Guard they'll have that ability however. Doesn't make much sense for Space Marines or any of the other current factions to use trenches anyway. Eldar do have deplayable shields, but that's about it.

 

[Nunka]

Aside from that, the removal of base building removes a huge strategy element.

I'm probably speaking for the minority here, but I see fewer strategy elements as a good thing. I've long since come to accept the fact that my mind is incapable of the multitasking and micromanagement required to be a "good" RTS player. The only true RTS I've played in the last year or so is Starcraft, and that's all from nostalgia.

That said, I enjoyed DoW II much more than the first, thanks in large part to the dumbing down and/or removal of certain strategy elements. To each his own.

 

[Ezzay]

I loved the original Dawn of War, I liked the first expansion, and I hated all the rest.

If DoW2 was another clone of DoW1, I would have wristed myself.

I loved DoW2 personally, it was different, and rather fun.

 

[KSarty]

To be quite honest, DoW2 IS dumbed down. It's not just because it's different, it's because it took elements from CoH and simplified them.

The tactical model from CoH allowed for several degrees of cover, pinning, directional vehicle damage, etc. These and other features have been quite simply ripped out with nothing to replace them. This means there are fewer variables in play and the overall game is simpler. Add to this the focus on fewer units and you get an overall simplified game.

The varying degrees of cover and pinning still exist, although pinning works a little bit differently. I have not seen directional vehicle damage, but you also don't see vehicles as often in DoW2 as you did in Company of Heroes, so vehicle combat isn't as important.

I thought DoW2 was a game with unrealized potential. Relic revolutionized the RTS genre over and over again before. 3D movement in Homeworld, resource system in DoW along with squad-based gameplay, detailed tactical mechanics in CoH. DoW2 doesn't bring anything new, it steps back.

I disagree. Sure DoW2 doesn't really bring anything new to the RTS table, but it is something new for Relic as far as the RPG elements are concerned. I agree that Relic always mixes it up, none of their franchises ever play the same as the others, and they don't just innovate for innovation's sake. I would not be surprised to see some pretty incredible additions built off of what they have established in DoW2

Yes, it is different, but different isn't always better. The tactical model from CoH should have been preserved or reworked a bit, not gutted. Unit counts should not be so pathetic. Seriously, Eldar got THREE platforms (basically the same unit)! That's just lazy on the part of the devs.

That seems to be in the same thread of most people's complaints about the game, lack of content. I definitely agree with you on that one. With the exclusion of base building and such a strong focus on individual units, why are there still so few unit types?

Overall DoW2 certainly has it's fair share of problems, but I think it is a great game that was done very well and accomplishes it's goal of mixing up the genre a bit.

 

[lostclause]

I played dow 1 and one of the most tedious parts of the game was chewing through an enemy base once you had defeated all their units. I haven't played dow 2 but the removal of the sprawling base doesn't seem like a bad idea (although a single structure may be a tiny bit too vulnerable)

 

[Jandau]

The varying degrees of cover and pinning still exist, although pinning works a little bit differently. I have not seen directional vehicle damage, but you also don't see vehicles as often in DoW2 as you did in Company of Heroes, so vehicle combat isn't as important.

I played CoH a long time ago, but I think it had more degrees of cover. Also, cover plays a far smaller role in DoW2 since almost ANYTHING destroys it. PINNING is out of the game. Supression is still in, but PINNING was not in at release. Neither were stances, but I heard they patched those in. Also, just because vehicles aren't as prevalent doesn't mean directional damage had to be taken out. It's not a big deal, but it's still a "deal".

I disagree. Sure DoW2 doesn't really bring anything new to the RTS table, but it is something new for Relic as far as the RPG elements are concerned. I agree that Relic always mixes it up, none of their franchises ever play the same as the others, and they don't just innovate for innovation's sake. I would not be surprised to see some pretty incredible additions built off of what they have established in DoW2

The RPG elements are all old game elements that have been done many times. DoW2 simply puts the emphasis on them more. Also, speculation about what they might do now is pointless since we have no info. However, DoW2 just feels too constricted to be a platform for much growth. The game model is very limited and focused so they'd have to rework the mechanics from the ground up to make any significant changes.

Also, the biggest issue I have with DoW2 is that they didn't do ENOUGH with it. It's not that I don't like what they did, they just stopped short of making a great game.

That seems to be in the same thread of most people's complaints about the game, lack of content. I definitely agree with you on that one. With the exclusion of base building and such a strong focus on individual units, why are there still so few unit types?

The game's content is laughable. The number of multiplayer maps at release was a joke. And no, the argument of people only playing a few maps is pointless in this situation since the main action is in the ladder play where maps are chosen RANDOMLY anyway.

The campaign is symptomatic of the game's problems as well. While the ideas behind it are sound, the execution is undeveloped. Missions feel the same. Heck, some of them ARE the same. Same race attacks you in the same territory and you're likely to play the exact same mission. And this happens over and over again. Not to mention the campaign is bogged down with pointless filler missions, the Tyranid infestation has practically no gameplay effect, etc. etc. Great ideas in there, but feels like they should have stayed at it for a while longer

And the unit selection is VERY limited. Granted, there are balancing concerns, but that still doesn't mean that some variety couldn't have been added. As I mentioned before, Eldar get three platforms. Couldn't they have put in Fire Dragoons instead of the Brightlance platform? It could function in pretty much the same way, only we'd have more variety. Plenty more such examples across all 4 races.

Overall DoW2 certainly has it's fair share of problems, but I think it is a great game that was done very well and accomplishes it's goal of mixing up the genre a bit.

It mixes up the genre a bit, but its impact would be much greater if it was a better game overall. The creative spark is there, but the execution feels rushed and unfinished. THAT'S my main problem. The game should have spent months more in development, not get tossed out like that.

 

[Wadders]

I feel that DoW2 was an experiment, to see how far they could push the boat out with regards to all the RPG elements etc. That experiment, as far as I'm concerned, was a success. Sure the many of the campaign missions were repetitive, making you repeat the same tasks over and over, but personally I loved unlocking new kit, trying different combinations of squads, equipment and powers and seeing how they worked together. the elements from CoH also worked a treat, making it a much more solid and tactical experience.

I cant say much about multiplayer, because I rarely play online, but theres more maps being added in the new update, so thats no longer an issue.

 

[KSarty]

I played CoH a long time ago, but I think it had more degrees of cover. Also, cover plays a far smaller role in DoW2 since almost ANYTHING destroys it.

I remember there being the same levels of cover in CoH, and I remember them reacting the same. Yellow cover could be destroyed by grenades, mortars, etc. Green cover was generally indestructible, maybe artillery could destroy but I can't remember.

PINNING is out of the game. Supression is still in, but PINNING was not in at release. Neither were stances, but I heard they patched those in. Also, just because vehicles aren't as prevalent doesn't mean directional damage had to be taken out. It's not a big deal, but it's still a "deal".

You are correct, my bad. I was thinking in terms of a general suppression system, I forgot that the CoH system had 2 different levels of suppression.

The RPG elements are all old game elements that have been done many times. DoW2 simply puts the emphasis on them more. Also, speculation about what they might do now is pointless since we have no info.

I realize that it has been done before, but I said that it was new for Relic not new for the genre. I think Relic is constantly making their games to be different than any of their previous games, and you can't really fault them for that even if you don't think it worked out. I know speculation of the game's possible grandeur is pointless, I'm just saying don't give up on the game yet when we don't know what they might have planned for it.

It mixes up the genre a bit, but its impact would be much greater if it was a better game overall. The creative spark is there, but the execution feels rushed and unfinished. THAT'S my main problem. The game should have spent months more in development, not get tossed out like that.

I think my only concern with the game is what I mentioned before, content. I think the gameplay in itself is fantastic, and can be built upon. I just don't think the sp/mp that was released really constitutes a full game, and I am anxiously waiting for them to fix that problem with some expansion content. I still have high hopes for what this game can become.

I feel that DoW2 was an experiment, to see how far they could push the boat out with regards to all the RPG elements etc. That experiment, as far as I'm concerned, was a success. Sure the many of the campaign missions were repetitive, making you repeat the same tasks over and over, but personally I loved unlocking new kit, trying different combinations of squads, equipment and powers and seeing how they worked together. the elements from CoH also worked a treat, making it a much more solid and tactical experience.

I don't agree that DoW2 itself was an experiment, but it could definitely have been a case of testing the waters. With an action-RPG in development Relic might have decided to see how open their audience, a strong RTS audience, would be to RPG style gameplay. Considering the sales figures for the game, it is reasonable to guess that it was a success for them. I sincerely hope they use what they have learned from it in Space Marine and to improve DoW2.

 

[orangebandguy]

I havent played it yet, but the loss of buildings is certainly a welcome addition. They cluttered up the place like hell and now we have a clear view of whats going on which makes it more satisfying looking round after the battle finishes and seeing the bodies everywhere.

 

[Del-Toro]

You idiot I love Dawn of War 2, largely because it had a single player focus and I love single player games, in fact I don't even bother with online RTS, which is what made DoW 2 so awsome and kept me coming back. The original (plus expansions) was good but I am glad that they stopped with that formula because when you have an entire company of space marines wiped out in each battle , and you are playin as the Blood Ravens third company, the primer in the manual seems sort of idiotic and they become defanged. In dawn of war 2 actually they come accross as the logic defying amalgamy of man and tank they are supposed to be. If you ask me the single player experience in Dawn of War 2 is second to none because once resources stop being an issue you have to actually think. You have a hard time with it because you need to get out of the starcraft/command and conquer tedium of playing logistics officer and more into the mindset of a tactictian. I never understood how a barracks in the middle of nowhere spawns legions of troops a question at least answered in DoW 1 but that still bugs me in other RTS (I'm looking at you command and conquer). Multiplayer is meh but single player excuses it. Thank you relic, for making the 50 bucks I paid you a good investment.

 

[Rusty Bucket]

DoW2 could have been a far superior game and that the devs failed to realize its potential.

Hit the nail on the head with this one. i guess it's kind of like Mirror's Edge in that respect, it was an experiment, and it didn't quite work. Give them credit for trying though.

 

[Sonicron]

My God. Why do people attempt comparisons between essentially different games?
I loved DoW1, at least the original game and the first expansion pack; and I loved DoW2, although it remains to be seen what they're gonna do with the potential expansion packs.
But DoW1 was a RTS game, whereas DoW2 is RTT mixed with RPG! Aside from the source material being the same, these two games simply can't be compared to one another because they're different genres! It's like comparing apples to fastfood burgers... -.-