What is so great about the keyboard as a gaming tool?

[Zhukov]

Like I said to someone else, if it is possible to prefer either one over the other, then yes, preference is relevant. And, judging by the posts in this thread, it is indeed possible for people to go either way.

I'm not saying it's not relevant, I'm saying that's not all there is to it, so you might aswell stop using the poor analogy.

The vast majority of those some people have not spent more time with a keyboard and mouse than it takes to check their facebook/email. Yeah, it is a factor, but no, keyboards are not made to be used in a finger-twisting-wrist-breaking way, and neither are mouses.

"Than me" is irrelevant when on average the speed and efficiency are so low as to have to change the pace of gameplay and introduce hand-holding features like aim-assist.

How is any of that relevant?

Some people prefer to play games using a controller. Are you disputing this? Because if you are then you might as well dispute my preferred flavour of ice cream while you're at it.

Some people prefer to play games using a mouse and keyboard. And quite frankly, despite being one of them myself, I wish they'd shut the fuck up about it.

 

[Zhukov]

How is any of that relevant?

They're slanting the market.

And no, this is, as I've said before, a matter of ignorance. You can't know what tastes better if you haven't bloody tried both.

Ah, of course. It's ignorance. Anyone who doesn't share your preference is ignorant. All has become clear.

*sigh*

I'm done here.

 

[Stall]

Like I said to someone else, if it is possible to prefer either one over the other, then yes, preference is relevant. And, judging by the posts in this thread, it is indeed possible for people to go either way.

Besides, what about comfort? Some people clearly find controllers more comfortable. Speed and efficiency aren't going to mean jack shit if your fingers hurt.

Also, I bet there are people out there who can use a controller with greater speed and efficiency than me using a keyboard. Lastly, most controller-dependant games have software to compensate for any weaknesses of said controller. Aim-assist and such.

It's like preferring a '90 Honda Civic over a Porsche 911, if you are that insistent on analogies. Sure, it is possible that someone might like a Civic over a 911, but there is no doubt that the 911 is just the objectively superior car. Same thing for gamepads. Sure, someone might like gamepads over M+K, but M+K is the objectively better control scheme.

And no, you cannot use a controller with the same speed as a mouse. It just isn't physically possible. Like people keep saying, it's not PREFERENCE here. The mouse is objectively more fast and accurate than the analogue stick.

 

[hawkeye52]

This is one of the main reasons why

 

[Zhukov]

Do you pretend like you have problems with reading comprehension, or do you actually have them?

I didn't say anyone.

Urg. So much for being done here.

So... what happens if someone tries both and still prefers the controller? Like, say... the OP?

Is that ignorance too?

Like I said to someone else, if it is possible to prefer either one over the other, then yes, preference is relevant. And, judging by the posts in this thread, it is indeed possible for people to go either way.

It's like preferring a '90 Honda Civic over a Porsche 911, if you are that insistent on analogies. Sure, it is possible that someone might like a Civic over a 911, but there is no doubt that the 911 is just the objectively superior car. Same thing for gamepads. Sure, someone might like gamepads over M+K, but M+K is the objectively better control scheme.

And no, you cannot use a controller with the same speed as a mouse. It just isn't physically possible. Like people keep saying, it's not PREFERENCE here. The mouse is objectively more fast and accurate than the analogue stick.

Look, I really don't feel like dealing with this bloody inanity on two fronts. So I shall say this once, and once only.

If it is possible for one person to prefer a Civic over a 911, and for another person to prefer the 911, then objectivity is no longer relevant.

Yes, particular attributes of those cars can be objectively demonstrated. Speed, efficiency, durability, whatever. But how much value, if any, a particular person places on those attributes, is completely and utterly subjective. So, it is possible for a person to prefer a car that is slower, less efficient, less durable etc because they place less value in those attributes than in other ones.

Likewise for a game input device. Someone can prefer a slower and less efficient controller just because they like the feel of it in their hands.

And, yes, someone can prefer chocolate over vanilla purely because of how it tastes, rather than because of nutritional benefits or whatnot.

 

[Shadrouge]

How is any of that relevant?

They're slanting the market.

And no, this is, as I've said before, a matter of ignorance. You can't know what tastes better if you haven't bloody tried both.

Ah, of course. It's ignorance. Anyone who doesn't share your preference is ignorant. All has become clear.

*sigh*

I'm done here.

You're misrepresenting his arguement, using a Strawman fallacy and the like.

He didn't say people are ignorant if they don't share his preference.
He said that people can't form a true preference if they're ignorant about all the options.

I used to prefer the game controller over the mouse and keyboard. I'd played Return to Castle Wolfenstein with a friend a lot during my childhood, but spent most of my gaming on the console with games like Halo. I wasn't very used to the mouse, and so thought it took rediculous dexterity to aim correctly with it. However, once I gave the mouse a proper go, I learnt to greatly prefer it. This is because I allowed myself to have knowledge of all the options (eradicating my ignorance).

So yes, preferences can be falsely based.

It's also possible to know all the options and still prefer something that is objectively inferior in a given context. (e.g. Aiming performance in an FPS) That does not change the fact their choice is objectively inferior, it just means they prefer the objectively inferior choice.

 

[Zhukov]

You're misrepresenting his arguement, using a Strawman fallacy and the like.

...

[snip]

...

That does not change the fact their choice is objectively inferior, it just means they prefer the objectively inferior choice.

See my previous post in this thread. Addressed both ignorance and objectivity.

Also relevant: "I really don't feel like dealing with this bloody inanity on two fronts."

 

[banksy122]

I have always been a PC gamer and am a touch-typer so my opinion is biased, but I am also pretty good with a controller. The only games I have played that I prefer the controller is fighting games. Every other game I prefer Mouse and Keyboard, including, brace yourself, Racing games. I use WASD and the arrow keys and have been told I am very good.
It does come down to what you were brought up with and what you have used the most, and I spend 6+ hours on a PC a day, so again, it is just what you are used to.

 

[Shadrouge]

You're misrepresenting his arguement, using a Strawman fallacy and the like.

...

[snip]

...

That does not change the fact their choice is objectively inferior, it just means they prefer the objectively inferior choice.

See my previous post in this thread. Addressed both ignorance and objectivity.

Also relevant: "I really don't feel like dealing with this bloody inanity on two fronts."

(This was in an edit in my previous post, but I didn't edit in in time before your response, so making it a new post)

Yes, subjectivity plays a vital part in it. That's not what he's been arguing against though, from what I can see. You're both arguing for two seperate things, though you uncovered the middle ground just now.

It's entirely possible that a more hectic game of CoD on the PC is not something an individual gamer would want, and prefers the slightly slower paced 360 version. Subjectively, he'll prefer the controller, but the environment plays a part in that. If he was using the controller on the PC, he would feel constrained by the controller.

Objectively, from a purely performance point of view, the mouse has been designed to allow more flexibility. That's just happens to line up with a lot of PC gamer's values. It might not matter to a 360 player, but objectively the controller is inferior, though that fact may not have any effect on his opinion, due to him not valuing that area of the design.

EDIT:
The arguements, as I see them:

His argument: The mouse is objectively better at performance than the Controller
Your argument: Objectivity ultimately doesn't matter, it's subjectivity of values that makes preference

These aren't binary stances though. You haven't argued "No, the mouse is not objectively better at performance than the Controller", and he hasn't claimed "Objectivity is all that matters", so your arguments are slipping past each other, as they aren't directly opposing.

 

[ethaninja]

I've been playing PC games using WASD for years now and I have no problems. Plus, it allows you to bind many more controlls and for quick swapping weapons (I.E. 1, 2 ,3 ,4) rather then pressing the same button until you get it right. Little things like that. Also, my keyboard, bindable macros so..

 

[ethaninja]

I love the keyboard because it allows chat without the need of a mic.

Also it's really customizable and my hands are just used to using a keyboard.

Doesn't get much simpler then this

 

[Ritalynn]

I hate the keyboard in comparison to a controller, with the controller every button you need is within easy and memorable reach of your fingers, keyboard? You've got to memorise 30 + buttons, what they all do and where they are in a moment of panic.
It's like taking an exam for your games, which is just stupid

Give a Controller to someone who has never used one. They look stupid.

GIve a keyboard to someone who hasn't used one. They look stupid.

Give a keyboard to someone who is used to both. It looks effortless. That's a terrible argument..... I can close my eyes and punch anything from numbers to letters to F keys to symbols. I'm used to binding many game layouts with different actions. Comparing speed of mouse/keyboard to a controller isn't even comparible.

The only difference i have in choices of PC playing or console playing is comfort.

Skyrim/RPGs/Games that take foreverrrr = Console so i can relax on a bed/couch and play.
FPS/RTS/MMO PC For max reactions.

 

[Zhukov]

See my previous post in this thread. Addressed both ignorance and objectivity.

(This was in an edit in my previous post, but I didn't edit in in time before your response, so making it a new post)

Yes, subjectivity plays a vital part in it. That's not what he's been arguing against though, from what I can see. You're both arguing for two seperate things, though you uncovered the middle ground just now.

It's entirely possible that a more hectic game of CoD on the PC is not something an individual gamer would want, and prefers the slightly slower paced 360 version. Subjectively, he'll prefer the controller, but the environment plays a part in that. If he was using the controller on the PC, he would feel constrained by the controller.

Objectively, from a purely performance point of view, the mouse has been designed to allow more flexibility. That's just happens to line up with a lot of PC gamer's values. It might not matter to a 360 player, but objectively the controller is inferior, though that fact may not have any effect on his opinion, due to him not valuing that area of the design.

EDIT:
The arguements, as I see them:

His argument: The mouse is objectively better at performance than the Controller
Your argument: Objectivity ultimately doesn't matter, it's subjectivity of values that makes preference

These aren't binary stances though. You haven't argued "No, the mouse is not objectively better at performance than the Controller", and he hasn't claimed "Objectivity is all that matters", so your arguments are slipping past each other, as they aren't directly opposing.

Yes, that. Lots and lots of that.

Thank you. I could bloody hug you.

[snip]

What that other clever fellow said.

Now, can we please put this one to bed?

 

[TrevHead]

Keyboard is actually popular with some PC bullet hell shmup players since they give the player precision so they can dodge bullets effectively which is nigh impossible with an analog stick.

I myself prefer a high quality D-pad or an arcade stick with a short throw thats made for shmups.

For example the best western player of Dodonpachi is a keyboard player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTOHnUALJOI (this vid shows the last boss http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTDpRHXxoM&feature=related)
Plus many of those Touhou replays will be keyboard too

 

[tzimize]

The only place a gamepad shines is 3rd person action/adventures. God of War, Uncharted, the new Space Marine game...I'd never play those with keyboard/mouse. But other stuff. PC > Console

You should try Space Marine with keyboard + mouse. It gets so much easier thanks to better controls.

Well...this is a console type game, its not about precision. Sure...it would be nice to shoot straighter, but for some reason I find it more satisfying to hit people with the chainsword when I use the gamepad. I've played 3rd person games with keyboard+mouse...and I can remember some GTA sniping missions on PS2 when I cursed the world for the poor accuracy of gamepads...but usually in such games its easy. Because the game is easy

 

[Jerubbaal]

Watch a gameplay video of someone playing Halo.

Then watch a gameplay video of someone playing Half-Life.

For added hilarity, find a video of someone playing Halo without auto-aim.

For most of the videos I've seen of console FPSes with auto aim turned off, the only way they're able to stay competetive is by leaving the targeting reticule still and then strafing in front of their target. Like this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKVdpwRlmKk