What is the "Citizen Kane" of Video Games?

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Treblaine

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Ironic Pirate said:
Unless you weren't very good, the armor didn't come into play a ton. It's a fall back, really.

The bit about the aliens was a bit of a joke, but whatever.

The regenerating shield, on the contrary, made getting shot worse, as you had less health. It made you take cover, rather than walk about like the Terminator until you finally got to the 50s on your meter.

I never mentioned "quick weapon switching" I mentioned giving you only two weapons to encourage tactical thinking. I read an interview with a PC developer (can't recall his name, but I'll edit it in if I do) saying "Our philosophy, and the philosophy of lots of other devs is that there are nine numbers on the num-pad, so give the player nine guns". That doesn't encourage tactical thinking very much. You never have to plan for the future with your guns, because you have all of them.

Halo isn't "dumbed down" because removing complexity isn't making it less intelligent. Tell me, which requires more intelligence, remembering a few more buttons, or having to plan and make intelligent weapon choices based on the current and possible future situation? Looking about for health packs, or taking cover?
"less health" well that's relevant to the rate damage the enemies actually deal, now I've played both Half Life 2 and Halo 2 (comparisons for similar release date and popularity) and enemies kill you so much quicker in Half Life 2, and if you end up surviving with low health you really have to work hard to survive after that. It's that challenge that can make the game so much more engaging.

You have to do things in Half life 2 like popping out from a corner firing a shotgun once, then popping back in just the pump the action, strafing in and out in sync with pumping the action. Ever had to do that in Halo? Can you even do that with gamepad controls, I personally don't find it very easy alternating strafe left and right quickly, again, this is why I prefer Keyboard and Mouse.

Don't underappreciate how so satisfying it is to find a health pack when you've survived a gunfight with a sliver of health and you know it'll mean you can get through the gunfights ahead, much more satisfying than just waiting in cover in a "time out". It encourages boldness for preservation. You STILL have to take cover and use cover very well but you cannot use cover as a crutch, hiding won't save you.

As to choosing your weapons in a tactical way, I don't see how you can do that in Halo, as at no point do you have access to ALL the previous weapons you've encountered and ALSO know what you will face ahead. You can only switch to another weapon you happen upon. That takes away so much enjoyment out of finding new weapons/ammo, as it leaves you with a zero-sum dilemma of having to give up one weapon to try another. You don't know if you'll be entering a wide open area where a shotgun+sub-gun combo would be a bad choice as an example. There is little tactical nor even strategic thinking you can do, you can only be general, try to have a long range and short range weapon and hope for the best.



"Halo isn't "dumbed down" because removing complexity..."

That is what I mean by "dumbed down", as in the complexity has been removed. But then again maybe that is the key to it's popularity. The thing about Halo's rebounding health and 2 weapon limit is it is very easy to get into as it is so simple and forgiving. That has made it very popular, but for FPS veterans it is a step in the wrong direction. Halo is not for people who were brought up on Quake and Half Life, that is clear. It's for people where the extend of their FPS experience isn't much beyond Goldeneye. Thing is today I probably like Goldeneye more than Halo as if you are going to have a simplified console FPS well you might as well go all the way...

Having to make complex weapons decisions QUICKLY WHILE UNDER PRESSURE is certainly more of a challenge than having to make inventory selection decisions well in advance with only the vaguest possible idea of the opposition ahead and being limited anyway by what weapons you happen to find available.

"You never have to plan for the future with your guns (with 9 weapons on keyboard) because you have all of them."

I don't know if you've ever gamed on PC but it's pretty suicidal to start reaching across the keyboard for quick-keys when circle-strafing a cyber-demon. You DO have to plan ahead and lean heavily on the "last weapon" function; select one weapon, then the next, so "last weapon" cycles between the two. In combat you fight with one weapon (a machine gun, good for general purpose) then when a target of opportunity appears (group of enemies) switch to last weapon with "last weapon" key (grenade launcher, blow up group). But if you find yourself overlooking a wide area, with just an inaccurate grenade launcher and machine gun, you can still select your sniper rifle from your inventory.

It's hardly "intelligent tactical decision making" to be forced to go hunting for a sniping weapon, or for the developer to "conveniently" place a sniper rifle in the area where you emerge into the open. It takes some time to select the sniper rifle from your inventory, wouldn't want to do it in combat, but far less frustrating than having to hunt for that one weapon and then take it back to the sniping position, all while giving up the great weapon combo you had.

You should never be too happy to have options taken away from you.

On consoles with the very limited controls it was welcome to simplify weapon inventory (Goldeneye style weapon switching, endlessly pressing B to cycle through, no no no) but it's an utter loss on PC because not only do we have the controls to quickly select between more than 2 weapons but generally (after the complexity of building/maintaining a PC) the demographic is more open to a more complex weapon inventory.

I think an acceptable compromise would have been something like Ocarina of Time, with a main inventory loading to a quick select inventory, Zelda had 3 items selected by 3 buttons, console FPS could limit that to 2 weapons alternated between by 1 button. See, it works.
 

Zhukov

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I'm severely tempted to say "Portal". But Really, there isn't one.

Not even close.

At least not yet.
 

TOGSolid

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Ironic Pirate said:
The first Halo earned the moniker Combat Evolved. It was more about timing, cover, and choosing your weapons than most shooters at the time, when the genre was still in the "Give them as many guns as we can model by the release date, and scatter health-packs and aliens everywhere" phase.

Sure, the series has kind of stagnated, but there's nothing really wrong with that.
There were plenty of shooters before Halo that did the whole timing/cover/etc. thing before Halo (however they were all on PC which may explain your bias). The only thing Halo did was figure out how to water an FPS down enough so that it would translate to consoles and still be fun. That's it.
 

Treblaine

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tigermilk said:
I think the 'gaming is to young' argument needs to be put in context. Citizen Kane was released in 1941. Cinema has existed as a technical medium since the mid 1890's meaning Citizen Kane was released 55 years after the first examples of film. The origins of computer games sits somewhere between the early 60's and 70's
The video games of the early 60's are about as relevant to "video games" as Magic Lantern shows were to what would be called "motion pictures", which had been around since the 17th century. The first motion picture camera was made in 1988:



"hurry up, how long is it going to take before this technology proves it is capable of art?"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movie_camera

So starting the clock it took 53 years for Cinema to officially create the Citizen Kane of, err, cinema.

Heck of a lot better than drawing, the lag time between cave graffiti and the Renaissance is pretty significant.

I wouldn't call jury rigging some radar equipment to do some repetitive action a "video game", the first real video game was Pong was available in 1972 and not for home use till the mid 70's, I'd say that is a better starting point. So 39 years down, 14 to go!

By 2025 if we haven't made the Citizen Kane of gaming well... I don't know congress will use that as an excuse to void Video games of 1st Amendment protection Jack Thompson will be slightly smug, I don't know, But I think we should consider what it means to be the "Citizen Kane of..."

Firstly the idea that Citizen Kane was the point films became art is utter bollocks, you saw the first evidence of film as an artistic medium within a few decades of its invention. Not to mention the many frivolous and artistically meaningless works of cinema that would come after it. No, Citizen Kane was the point where it became undeniable in the general public that Cinema was "serious business", it COULD be art and that aspect SHOULD be considered.

But I think that public case is being made, precisely because Video Games have moved from niche and ignored to being both big money spinners and controversial. You know if the news is mad at you, you must be doing something right. Cinema had that, the tabloid newspapers had all sorts of nasty things to say about this newfangled cinema but it suffered for it, it got hit with censorship laws that weren't relaxed for decades.

But maybe you shouldn't ask a gamer what is the Citizen Kane of gaming... maybe we should ask the general public. Then again, the general public (all ages) probably hasn't even seen that movie nor even played any video games.
 

MikeCrick

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Half-Life. Hands Down.

It pretty much defined how games after it would be told.
As a film student I won't repeat what has already been said about Citzen Kane. It's more about changing perceptions and using the tools available to tell a story and create 'art' in a way.

Video Games are an entirely different medium. We can't just focus on the story when it comes to video games. However Half-Life married all the main parts of the video game medium into what we see today. Story, Gameplay, Graphics and Innovation. Like Citizen Kane it was the first to grab all the things and present them as a neat package which made people look at it and go "damn"

Most games wouldn't be how they are had Half-Life never happened. However with that said, it would just have been another game that did it anyway.

That's just my opinion anyway :)
 

luckshotpro

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The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
I don't know about as art, but it is definitely considered the greatest game of all time by a lot of people

And in terms of art, I'll have to go with Bioshock
"The story is easily one of the best that I've ever seen in a game, or in anything for that matter, and the setting and character development set the scene for one of the most well designed games that I have ever played.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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Talal Provides said:
Citizen Kane is the Citizen Kane of movies because it was the first to use the the unique technical attributes of the medium in an expressive way that enhanced the power of the narrative, and in doing so invented modern film. The only time I've seen this happen with games, where the way the game was played was connected with the story in a way that made the story have a greater impact was "would you kindly" in Bioshock, which was probably the single greatest moment of creative genius that I have ever seen in a game.
I agree, that single moment when you realise that
none of your actions have been your own
not only feels awesome, but is a great metaphor for the linear nature of games.
 

infohippie

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I can't bring a specific game to mind, but surely there must be plenty that are exactly like Citizen Kane - boring, pretentious and way too long to sit through when you'd rather be doing anything else.
 

xdom125x

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Mullahgrrl said:
The_root_of_all_evil said:
The problem, as you've seen, is that Citizen Kane despite being an astounding movie, doesn't always rank as a number one film. It's basic premise, that of a valiant man torn down by his own hubris, has been repeated many many times; and CK itself is not without its gaping plot holes.

Who actually heard him say "Rosebud"? There was no-one around who could have.
I think the butler did it.
To elaborate, (if I am not mistaken) the scene was from the butlers P.o.V. So yes the butler did it.(P.S. I think spoilers aren't necessary on this topic. Isn't there a statute of limitations on spoilers?)
 

Zannah

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You mean a game with mediocre plot and some new fancy tech tricks, that's astoundingly overrated by nerds? Guess Half Life II qualifies.
 

p3t3r

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dakorok said:
As an art form? Take a look at some independent flash games. You'd be surprised how deep some of them can go.

As a revolution?
Goldeneye for First-person shooters.
these are my examples as flash games as art http://www.ludomancy.com/blog/

for the citizen cane though i don't think we have had one yet
 
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Treblaine said:
Well then how the hell did you miss Metal Gear Solid? I'm only 2 years older than you, and I caught that in the early 2000's, I made good use of my PS2's backwards compatibility and MGS1 was an unmissable title, mainly off the back of MGS2 I figured I better play the prequel first.

Many subsequent games have risen to the standard of that game but so few have tried to move their players quite as much. Then again, MGS2 probably tried too hard and ended up a pretentious mess in terms of artistic narrative.

I'm not judging you personally, my original comment was broadly, how little recognition there is of the classics. Interesting Citizen Kane, it would be a while before another film would come along of that calibre.
Ah, Metal Gear, I was never really exposed to it, ours was a PC house and even when my brother got a PS2 we didn't have it. I bought MGS 2 & 3 about a year back but have yet to get into them.
Also I was disappointed when I put in MGS2 expecting my first adventure with Snake only to get Raiden.
 

sageoftruth

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I would say Okami. Very artistically inclined, with a very interesting story, and like Citizen Kane, I had trouble sitting through the whole expereince.
 

emeraldrafael

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Bypassing the Citizen Kane criticism (it was a good movie, I'll acknowledge it that, and you cant really deny it). I dont know. Maybe Heavy Rain? Or LoZ: Ocarina of Time?

For complexity, I would Say if you combined all of the Persona series games, you would have a game that would fit the Description. But as of now, probably the two above.
 

Treblaine

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Clockwork Scarecrow. said:
Treblaine said:
Well then how the hell did you miss Metal Gear Solid? I'm only 2 years older than you, and I caught that in the early 2000's, I made good use of my PS2's backwards compatibility and MGS1 was an unmissable title, mainly off the back of MGS2 I figured I better play the prequel first.

Many subsequent games have risen to the standard of that game but so few have tried to move their players quite as much. Then again, MGS2 probably tried too hard and ended up a pretentious mess in terms of artistic narrative.

I'm not judging you personally, my original comment was broadly, how little recognition there is of the classics. Interesting Citizen Kane, it would be a while before another film would come along of that calibre.
Ah, Metal Gear, I was never really exposed to it, ours was a PC house and even when my brother got a PS2 we didn't have it. I bought MGS 2 & 3 about a year back but have yet to get into them.
Also I was disappointed when I put in MGS2 expecting my first adventure with Snake only to get Raiden.
(to the part in bold)


MGS2 is a dick slap in the face after Metal Gear Solid I cannot emphasize this enough, MGS2 is like the Star Wars Prequels of the MGS series, avoid it like the plague, in fact pretend it doesn't even exist. Skip. It. Entirely.

Please, play MGS1 and just treat MGS2 like fan-fiction. I'm sorry, I'm so sorry you have been so badly burned. MGS3 is all right but really plays it far too safe, it's a nice back story to MGS1 but really is unnecessary, we don't really need to know Big Boss's origin story just like we don't need to know Darth Vader's origins.

There is this poster flying around of Jar Jar Binks saying "Well at least he isn't as bad as Twilight's Sparkling Vampires" Well Raiden is the Jar Jar Binks of the MGS series and yes, he is worse than sparkling vampires. He is almost single-handedly responsible for Metal Gear Solid being so under-appreciated... everyone plays the more recent higher res version MGS game assuming it must be better. Fuck. No.

PS2 is backwards compatible, you've got to get MGS1 and play it. Quickly, here may still be time to undo the damage done by MGS2! You can also download it for PSP, that version seems good enough, what are you waiting for? Graphics don't matter, this game nails it in every way a game needs to be great! You'll see what I mean by Citizen Kane of gaming.

MGS1 should be required gaming if you want to have any dialogue about game narratives.
 

Save us.A7X

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I don't think games have had their Citizen Kane, simply because games still haven't been accepted as much more than a childrens plaything by most people. The closest we've gotten are games like Sotc, Silent Hill 2, Bioshock, etc.
 

Atmos Duality

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Ironic Pirate said:
I never mentioned "quick weapon switching" I mentioned giving you only two weapons to encourage tactical thinking. I read an interview with a PC developer (can't recall his name, but I'll edit it in if I do) saying "Our philosophy, and the philosophy of lots of other devs is that there are nine numbers on the num-pad, so give the player nine guns". That doesn't encourage tactical thinking very much. You never have to plan for the future with your guns, because you have all of them.
I found the weapon limitation to have little to do with tactical decisions since in Halo, loaded guns of all flavors drop freaking everywhere. Just as a personal challenge, I tried to beat the entirety of those fucking Library missions with just plasma pistols, and you know what? It wasn't that different from using the preferred shotgun.

No, the primary reason you're limited to two guns is because it's easy to manage on a gamepad.
Good design decision for a console. Kind of silly for a PC.

Halo isn't "dumbed down" because removing complexity isn't making it less intelligent. Tell me, which requires more intelligence, remembering a few more buttons, or having to plan and make intelligent weapon choices based on the current and possible future situation? Looking about for health packs, or taking cover?
I agree that making a game more simple doesn't necessarily make it stupid. The card game "GO" is one of the oldest games in history, yet its deceptively simple nature belies the complexity behind it.
However, what Halo actually does with its weapon choices isn't anything new or exciting.

There are benefits and disadvantages to using either approach. Design decisions that call for pacing and accessibility. Halo is popular because it's accessible to most new players, but terribly bland and unrewarding for any FPS veterans out there.
Case in point; with the exception of Reach (because I haven't bothered to get around to it), I've been able to beat every single Halo game on Legendary difficulty without much frustration.
Why? Because the games are paced to project the player forward rather than oppose them. Once you figure the trick out to each scenario, victory is inevitable, no matter how badly you fuck up initially. It's fun if you've never played a genuinely difficult shooter before, but very boring or tedious if you're more experienced.

In comparison, beating System Shock 2 (which I played AFTER Bioshock) on anything beyond Easy is a genuine nightmare, despite death being (more or less) non-permanent. That's a shooter where managing your many weapons IS critical to winning. Do I conserve ammo and use laser pistols, blow modules and go for the laser saber, or do I try to rush the game on scavenged shotgun ammo? Each weapon has different advantages and disadvantages, but there's no shortage of enemies. Decisions decisions...
 

Chunga the Great

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I would have to say Bioshock. It is by far the best story I have ever seen in a game. My personal second would be Fallout 3