What is the harm of social justice journalism?

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Muspelheim

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Apr 7, 2011
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Thorn14 said:
(Whats the rule on double posting here if I want to respond to new posts? Continue or Edit? Sorry.)

And of course I know you don't mean me. Though the whole "gamers are loser nerds" came from the 'journalists' I felt quite insulted. Though I think your argument that its all because gamers are "younger" isn't fair, as you mentioned, sports people do the same thing (Oh MY team lost/won.) and they can be full grown adults.

Its easy to say that people shouldn't base their lives on their hobby but how many hours do you think some of us put into our hobby? So when we see something that attacks something we put a lot of love and time into, we're going to take it personal.

Do I think we need more inclusiveness in gaming? Of course, but I don't think criticism that leads to nothing other than "these things are bad" is going to get us anywhere.
(If the reply is short, I usually edit it in, but I'd say larger replies warrant their own post. It's what I usually do, mind, but I don't think there is a rigid official policy)

I should've phrased myself a bit better, I didn't mean that the general youth of the community was the main reason. Insecurity isn't exclusively linked to age, not at all. However, I believe that it have an effect, that there is a rather large number of youths undergoing an insecure time in their life in the community, which in turn makes gaming related matters particularly sensitive.

Further, if someone that isn't very qualified talks nonsense at something you are much more familiar with, it's better to not let it get to you. If it's rubbish, there is no reason to let it sink in. Someone somewhere in the world with no experience in the matter thinking poorly on gaming doesn't make it any less important to yourself. It's never going to be a painless matter having something you like being called shite, but it's often just empty, meaningless wind. As such, it's a waste of energy developing an elaborate grudge over it.

Personally, I don't think we need to worry too much about inclusiveness. Little by little, it's trickling in on its own. The whole miasma have moved away from being a question of inclusiveness and become a question of simple, decent conduct.
 

Gigano

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Oct 15, 2009
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None in particular.

The good it spoils, though, in the form of its consumers' casual enjoyment of the medium, is quite another story. Whilst there will be little in the way of discernible change to materiel facts, the lightheartedness and enjoyment with which they are approached will certainly suffer. Words that could never create can still destroy.

Which is arguably the crux of this rebellion against the appropriation of appreciation for nice playable quality, in favour of demands for niche political conformity. Words will never carry the weight of a wallet, but they will suffice to mess up the experience you've bought.
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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In all honesty it means fuck all aside from hurt feelings to people who take themselves too seriously and assume any SJW article is somehow inherently attacking them and not discussing the larger part of the picture.

I also suppose having two more games in a line up of hundreds of games that are "SJW" oriented is a sign that vidya is on the brink of destruction.
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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Well, can't isolate it with games journalists (though they have disproportionately been responsible for it in part over the past few years) but damage which has ALREADY been done by the SJW movement has been the complete discrediting of the term "misogyny" or variations of it as a form of criticism. No longer is it possible to be considered a valid criticism of anything, we've gone past the point where its use is so overused on things which very clearly do not fit any definition of the term it literally means "something I don't like" when used instead of anything relating to how someone or something views women.

As for games journalists specifically, it only harms the image. The blowback ever major gaming site has been hit by didn't come out of nowhere, and it wasn't some right-wing male conspiracy (mainly because people of all ideologies, races and genders have spoken out as part of the anti-corruption side of this issue), it came about after years, and I mean YEARS, of articles, videos and podcasts from these sites which have had "you suck for existing" as the underlying theme. It may not be the explicit message, but you can only say "the thing you like is terrible" so many times before it becomes impossible to think of it as anything other then "the thing you like is terrible", and the fact that almost all examples are either cherry picks, misrepresentations or out right lies doesn't help. It gives off the image of intentional attacks from outsiders who don't care about or know anything of the medium (and it doesn't help that one of the most well know who does so is by their own admission just that).

Hell, just look at this thread, someone actually claimed there is rampant misogyny in the West. That is a claim which isn't extreme in the SJW crowd, despite the fact that it contradicts reality on such a high degree one could claim the exact opposite is true and (despite being claimed to be an extremist for doing so) they would be much, much closer to the actual fact of the state of Western culture. Misogyny may exist in the world, but like hell is it anywhere near as present in all aspects of life as misandry, yet you don't see journalists flocking to be something that is impossible to call a journalist by definition to make their living off of articles about this.
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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MarsAtlas said:
T_ID said:
Zeconte said:
So you're saying people should focus on the GOOD aspects of rampant sexism and misogyny in popular culture instead of pointing out how bad it is?
Feminism certainly seems to think that men should welcome being hated and discriminated against with open arms, yes. Focus on the good aspects. You may be unemployed because you were refused for a job only because of your horrid male gender, but at least we have equality now.
Misrepresentation and generalization, ahoy! Set course for echo chamber, heading India-Mike-November*!

I would've thought that posters on The Escapist would've learned in the six years since I joined that generalzing a massive, evolving ideology that has been around for over a hundred years is a bad idea.
Generalization is happening on both sides, the only difference is that the pro-corruption's side of it is being backed by (or, more accurately, perpetuated by) games media, while the other side's is not.
 

Callate

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Dec 5, 2008
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How about this:

Journalism (or op-ed pieces masquerading as journalism) do not exist in a vacuum. Now, more than ever, the wrong person on a soapbox is enough to start a Twitter mob that is perfectly capable of getting the wheels of a controversy-shy CEO or board of directors moving to get someone fired.

Some of the people who have their entire existence reduced down to one misconstrued comment or ill-considered Tweet are very talented individuals in their chosen fields, and their being fired or kicked off of projects is or would be a net loss to both those projects and often their fields.

For all the talk of responsibility and the importance criticism in some (NOT all) populating the field, there's too often little show of the former or competence in the latter to be seen.
 

Robert B. Marks

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Jun 10, 2008
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Well, this is going to go a bit back...

First, I would argue that there is a difference between commentary and journalism. I wrote 52 installments of Garwulf's Corner back between 2000-2002, and at no point during that time would I have ever called myself a journalist. I don't think I broke a single story - I talked about a lot of them, and expressed an opinion. But I was a columnist, not a journalist.

When I worked for a law faculty editing news and writing news stories, things were different. It may have been PR, but I didn't get to editorialize much, and basic fact-checking was implemented on every story. It was closer to journalism, although it probably wasn't all the way there.

I would not say that most of what the game media does counts as journalism to begin with. A review isn't journalism - game X being good or bad is not a news story. It's commentary. A preview may come close to journalism, although even there I would consider it a bit shaky.

Industry news, on the other hand, is journalism. In fact, it seems to me that most of what one could point to in the games media and call "journalism" is about the developers and the industry, and very little about the content of the games at all. I guess one way to put it is that journalism tells us the "what," the "how," and sometimes the "why." Commentary lets us figure out what it all means.

So looking at it in terms of what journalism actually is, "social justice journalism" would be very limiting. There are ways that the video games industry can do certain things like diversity in hiring better, but there is much more going on, and journalism should be free to cover everything.

In terms of commentary, it comes down to freedom of speech, and the ability to talk about video game issues HAS to be present. The first steps in pulling video game media away from being little more than a PR branch of video games companies was taken by people setting aside previews, reviews, and strategy guides, and actually talking about what the content of the games meant, and what their implications are. It is through the commentary today that we are able to talk about what the news means, and push for things to be better. Now, you can call that "social justice" if you want, but it has to be there, otherwise we drift back into games coverage that treats them as toys, rather than as a medium.
 

Zontar

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Feb 18, 2013
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MarsAtlas said:
Zontar said:
Generalization is happening on both sides, the only difference is that the pro-corruption's side of it is being backed by (or, more accurately, perpetuated by) games media, while the other side's is not.
I'd be comfortable saying that use of "pro-corruption" is a misrepresentation in of itself. Nobody likes corruption unless they're either the ones doing the bribing or they're the ones getting bribed. Calling it pro-corruption is borderline ad hominem. I think a more fair representation of the two big camps are "corruption is bad, and is a rampant problem in games journalism" and "corruption is bad, but its not as pervasive as it seems". Does that description seem reasonable? Its a little wordy, sure, but thats the thing about language, the less you use, the more broad your words mean.
You have a good point, but I guess I'm just not one of those who's good at keeping their emotions in check in all this. A lot of the people I've spoken with who are against GamerGate where ones who bring no addition to their side, if you know what I mean. Guess it's just robbing me the wrong way. I mean hell, we've got people arguing that our culture as a whole is inundated with misogyny, how does one argue rationally with that?
 

CpT_x_Killsteal

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Jun 21, 2012
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It's fine to look at things from a different perspective (feminist, marxist, etc,), I have no problem with that.
The problem I have is when "journalists" twist the facts, take things out of context, omit things, and outright make shit up in an effort to frame everything inside their narrative. I dislike it when the right wing does it to make claims that Obama still might be a Kenyan and claim that making the rich pay their fair share of taxes is "communism", and I dislike it when sites like Kotaku use these tactics to frame everyone who doesn't agree with them as some sort of bigot.

Long story short, reporting on instances of racism or sexism is fine, good even, but performing mental gymnastics, twisting things as mentioned above and screaming misogynist makes you look like an arse.
 

gargantual

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Jul 15, 2013
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Burnouts3s3 said:
There's been a lot of debate recently concerning social justice and video games. What I want to know is how will this change anything, business wise.

Feminism has been around for a long time and feminist critique of mass mediums, such as television, radio, movies, music, stage, has been around for even longer. The other mediums are aware of the accusations of sexism and objectification, but sexism and objectification still run rampant. People still make money off of it. So, what's the harm of letting journalists say what's wrong with it in social justice terms.

Even if a work of art is considered harmful or 'bad' or 'not helping', what can criticism do to stop the work from being produced or published? Even if people are aware of its ill effects, won't people consume it anyway? People know that fast food, alcohol, drugs and Michael Bay movies are bad for you, but they're still in business (and I say this as a person who enjoys Michael Bay films. Oh, c'mon, I thought that forest fight in Revenge of the Fallen was sweet).

In the end, what happens? Isn't it more likely that the critics will say their word, the consumer will still consume en masse of the product and at best all that's changed is a token representation or a disclaimer waving responsibility or lip-service will be provided?

What harm will it bring to a business?
I'l paraphrase from Terry at metagearsolid.org.

"gaming as an industry (has not yet but its getting there) been controlled by special interests, and therefore isn?t allowed to penetrate into mainstream acceptance, ( to the degree of film, music and literature ) creating a vacuum of authority in which honest gaming communities, self-appointed representatives, and cynical corporate media fight for mindshare of each other and (the narrative of what should be made celebrated and mostly paid attention to)"

and megapublishers have been dumb over the years with this freedom from special interest control of the medium, psyched that outsiders have shown commerical interests in their digital properties from special interest groups, cheap filmmakers, browbeating politicans who'll chastise till they get their election dontation cash, and now shady extremist academics who work in complete sociopolitical echo chambers. Unlike Valve shutting the door on EA's constant bidding offers like Green Eggs and Ham. The rest of the industry learned far too late to lobby and scruntize the crows, and vultures that have gathered around the industry.

When the Weinstein company decides it wants to back a very contentious film that's guaranteed to make mega bucks, you can bet they are bringing out the massive WMD's and ICBM's of marketing and PR campaigns to validate it, and shutup any parties that present a danger to it.

Does video games have hollywood's level of 'speak softly and carry a big stick?' for whatever it wants to push or sell? Hardly. Its a home for the shit gamers like.

In our modern world where people have more capability than ever before to communicate ideas into an open marketplace and find their audiences, we have evolved laws and protections, public dissent for people that speak unpopular social firebombs, and social progression and the fear of shame high speed tecnology and vast amount of internet accrued knowledge or the ability to sleuth through B.S. for actual empirical data. We havent had it this good.

It makes social justice complainers and those who've found a platform in media journalism look like whiny people, whos crusades are just their dopamine rush, while most people prefer to just pleasure themselves physically or mentally instead of constantly scrambling for the world's validation, and running in the "reflected dignity olympics" all day, and such complainers are not for the betterment of mankind, but to leech of the latest topic to raise their profile.

Every society has its share of opportunists. Especially considering how many come out from academia with degrees that won't lead to bill paying jobs.

In journalism when social complaints largely misrepresent and ignore the mechanics of a game and how well the visual kinaesthethic experience comes together, or how thematic elements serve the game (narrative, player response, latency, flow and balance) It becomes annoying self-insertion and clickbait that internet mainstays are all too familiar with.

We know on the web there is an economy of paid web space filling writers, putting out literally whatever to help get volume or one up each other on the sensational ladder for clicks. We see it in paranoid health scare articles, and other google news sections with bogus headlines. Mixing this with largely apolitical players and int dwellers who have noses for bullshit, is essentially anchovie pizza flavored ice-cream. It just don't mix.
 

gargantual

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Jul 15, 2013
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Burnouts3s3 said:
There's been a lot of debate recently concerning social justice and video games. What I want to know is how will this change anything, business wise.

Feminism has been around for a long time and feminist critique of mass mediums, such as television, radio, movies, music, stage, has been around for even longer. The other mediums are aware of the accusations of sexism and objectification, but sexism and objectification still run rampant. People still make money off of it. So, what's the harm of letting journalists say what's wrong with it in social justice terms.

Even if a work of art is considered harmful or 'bad' or 'not helping', what can criticism do to stop the work from being produced or published? Even if people are aware of its ill effects, won't people consume it anyway? People know that fast food, alcohol, drugs and Michael Bay movies are bad for you, but they're still in business (and I say this as a person who enjoys Michael Bay films. Oh, c'mon, I thought that forest fight in Revenge of the Fallen was sweet).

In the end, what happens? Isn't it more likely that the critics will say their word, the consumer will still consume en masse of the product and at best all that's changed is a token representation or a disclaimer waving responsibility or lip-service will be provided?

What harm will it bring to a business?
I'l paraphrase from Terry at metagearsolid.org.

"gaming as an industry (has not yet but its getting there) been controlled by special interests, and therefore isn?t allowed to penetrate into mainstream acceptance, ( to the degree of film, music and literature ) creating a vacuum of authority in which honest gaming communities, self-appointed representatives, and cynical corporate media fight for mindshare of each other and (the narrative of what should be made celebrated and mostly paid attention to)"

and megapublishers have been dumb over the years with this freedom from special interest control of the medium, psyched that outsiders have shown commerical interests in their digital properties from special interest groups, cheap filmmakers, browbeating politicans who'll chastise till they get their election dontation cash, and now shady extremist academics who work in complete sociopolitical echo chambers. Unlike Valve shutting the door on EA's constant bidding offers like Green Eggs and Ham. The rest of the industry learned far too late to lobby and scruntize the crows, and vultures that have gathered around its house.

When the Weinstein company decides it wants to back a very contentious film that's guaranteed to make mega bucks, you can bet they are bringing out the massive WMD's and ICBM's of marketing and PR campaigns to validate it, and shutup any parties that present a danger to it.

Does video games have hollywood's level of 'speak softly and carry a big stick?' for whatever it wants to push or sell? Hardly. Its a home for the shit gamers like.

In our modern world where people have more capability than ever before to communicate ideas into an open marketplace and find their audiences, we have evolved laws and protections, public dissent for people that speak unpopular social firebombs, and social progression and the fear of shame high speed tecnology and vast amount of internet accrued knowledge or the ability to sleuth through B.S. for actual empirical data. We havent had it this good.

It makes social justice complainers and those who've found a platform in media journalism look like whiny people, whos crusades are just their dopamine rush, while most people prefer to just pleasure themselves physically or mentally instead of constantly scrambling for the world's validation, and running in the "reflected dignity olympics" all day, and such complainers are not for the betterment of mankind, but to leech of the latest topic to raise their profile.

Every society has its share of opportunists. Especially considering how many come out from academia with degrees that won't lead to bill paying jobs.

In journalism when social complaints largely misrepresent and ignore the mechanics of a game and how well the visual kinaesthethic experience comes together, or how thematic elements serve the game (narrative, player response, latency, flow and balance) It becomes annoying self-insertion and clickbait that internet mainstays are all too familiar with.

We know on the web there is an economy of paid web space filling writers, putting out literally whatever to help get volume or one up each other on the sensational ladder for clicks. We see it in paranoid health scare articles, and other google news sections with bogus headlines. Mixing this with largely apolitical players and int dwellers who have noses for bullshit, is essentially anchovie pizza flavored ice-cream. It just don't mix.
 

Genocidicles

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Sep 13, 2012
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Burnouts3s3 said:
There's been a lot of debate recently concerning social justice and video games. What I want to know is how will this change anything, business wise.

Feminism has been around for a long time and feminist critique of mass mediums, such as television, radio, movies, music, stage, has been around for even longer. The other mediums are aware of the accusations of sexism and objectification, but sexism and objectification still run rampant. People still make money off of it. So, what's the harm of letting journalists say what's wrong with it in social justice terms.

Even if a work of art is considered harmful or 'bad' or 'not helping', what can criticism do to stop the work from being produced or published? Even if people are aware of its ill effects, won't people consume it anyway? People know that fast food, alcohol, drugs and Michael Bay movies are bad for you, but they're still in business (and I say this as a person who enjoys Michael Bay films. Oh, c'mon, I thought that forest fight in Revenge of the Fallen was sweet).

In the end, what happens? Isn't it more likely that the critics will say their word, the consumer will still consume en masse of the product and at best all that's changed is a token representation or a disclaimer waving responsibility or lip-service will be provided?

What harm will it bring to a business?
It gets the games changed.

Like the removal of that harmless joke in Stanley Parable, or the fictional rape scene in Hotline Miami 2.

I wouldn't have a problem if it was just some people whining on the side but developers are actually listening to them, assuming them to be representative of their wider audience or something.
 

AkaDad

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Jun 4, 2011
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There's nothing wrong with social justice journalism.

If I write a review of a game you like and I point out sexist elements in that game, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to take that as a personal attack.

When I see this happen, it means that the person who got offended can't distinguish between criticism of a game and criticism of the player, or they know better and are using it as fake outrage for whatever reason.

If I say anyone who likes a game with sexist elements is a sexist, then yeah, I deserve to be called out on that.