What is the point of God?

[Samurai Goomba]

As I posted in another thread, religion doesn't cause strife. Difference causes strife.

But all religious texts tell us what is allowed and isn't allowed, anything out side these bounds should not be allowed. Your right difference does cause strife but religion was the first institution to really say what is normal and what is different.

Prove it. Next time you try to make crap up, understand that people will call you on it.

A lot of our laws today are derived from Biblical rules of conduct. To look at only the bad that has come from religion is to see a whale and ignore an aircraft carrier. Carrying whales.

But why don't we then remove the damaging rules and beliefs from society?

What do you suggest to "remove beliefs?" Brainwashing? Ethnic cleansing? Firing squads? Forcing people to get a little mark on their hand or head which proves they are not religious nutjobs?

Ideals cannot be killed. Only people can.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

As I posted in another thread, religion doesn't cause strife. Difference causes strife.

But all religious texts tell us what is allowed and isn't allowed, anything out side these bounds should not be allowed. Your right difference does cause strife but religion was the first institution to really say what is normal and what is different.

Prove it. Next time you try to make crap up, understand that people will call you on it.

A lot of our laws today are derived from Biblical rules of conduct. To look at only the bad that has come from religion is to see a whale and ignore an aircraft carrier. Carrying whales.

But why don't we then remove the damaging rules and beliefs from society?

I agree with this. I also think that everyone should live forever and that we should each get a pair of angel wings.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

As an atheist I do not understand religion. For years it has been the moving force behind wars like the Holy Crusades, Islamic Jihads and Holocausts. All the religious book are deeply embedded with contradictions and preach messages that condemn people for being different.

Didn't you already cover this in another thread?

Ok, basically, people blame religious books for whatever comes into their mind that they say "God made me do it".
Religious books are heavily edited works of Man (who is very fallible) and very few actually condemn people who are different. Certain sub-authors might, but again, that's plain bigotry.
It also doesn't mention mp3 players, but it's sort of assumed that you don't set them off on full in public places. Or dinosaurs.
(Hmmm...now a mp3 player on full on a dinosaur, however...)

 

[DANGERECTION]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

 

[matrix3509]

I really fucking wish we could all stop talking about religion, already.

Some need religion because they're afraid of death.
Some need it so they can say "This wasn't my fault, God intended it."
Some need it so they have something to lean on when shit gets tough.

And I guess there are some who need it for reasons I, someone who is as far removed from humanity and religion as humanly (hurr hurr hurr) possible, can't understand.

I guess some people just need something to believe in, but I couldn't imagine why.

This.
Seriously, stop it with the fucking religion threads already.

 

[Smudge91]

Think of it this way. God is a massive comfy blanket that you can carry around withyou without people pointing and poking fun. Of course there are extremists but then again look at football violence they are exactly the same but use Football as their excuse. The extremists just happen to be very angry crazy people who look for a justification and there is no bigger justification than God. How can you argue against, "well god told me to?". You haven't spoke to him, there is no way of knowing if he exists to ask him. I'm just going to hand over my copy of Ayer's Language Truth and Logic. I basically agree with most of what he says, although there are rumours he almost chocked on a piece of smolked salmon and converted to christianity.

 

[Michael S. Azrael]

Actually, again, I will point out that LAW is what dictates what is normal, and there are more secular governments in the world today than there are religions. And religions may dictate what the laws are in some places, but the laws came first, not religion.

Then why are gays considered different and wrong? Why was a muslim stabbed near my house? When I say normal, I'm not talking about the normal traffic speed or any kind of legal aspect; what I'm talking about are personal characteristics that others think are wrong and digusting.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

I think you could be oversimplifying it though. I think most people do not believe something with all their heart. There's always a glimmer of doubt, and there's always faith to be tested. I think that if you're able to believe something 100% of the time, you're either running at an IQ too low to be considered capable of taking care of yourself or quite young. Many of my more religious friends talk about doubting their faith at some point or another.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

Actually, again, I will point out that LAW is what dictates what is normal, and there are more secular governments in the world today than there are religions. And religions may dictate what the laws are in some places, but the laws came first, not religion.

Then why are gays considered different and wrong? Why was a muslim stabbed near my house? When I say normal, I'm not talking about the normal traffic speed or any kind of legal aspect; what I'm talking about are personal characteristics that others think are wrong and digusting.

Yeah, and you know, you don't have to be religious to hate gays and you don't have to be faithful to love them. It's not about faith. It's about personal bias wrapped up in religious clothing. I wish that people who weren't faithful would understand that.

 

[Alex_P]

For example take the Knight Templar, a powerful organisation that nearly rivalled the Church but instead of trying to understand it, the Church destoryed because they thought that the Knight Templar threatened the Church.

King Philip IV destroyed the Templars because he owed them a lot of money. Clement V went along grudgingly because Philip threatened to fuck him up (the Pope was based in France). Other European monarchs were happy to execute the papal bull because the Templars represented a dangerous state-within-a-state with its own standing army and treasury, and had designs to create their own monastic state similar to the Teutonic Order. Can't really blame that one on the Church.

I'm not trying to start a fight, all i'm trying to do is understand why we need religion? What useful purpose does it sevre? Why does society not just abandon it?

"Religion must remain an outlet for people who say to themselves, 'I am not the kind of person I want to be.' It must never sink into an assemblage of the self satisfied." - Frank Herbert
Take that as you will.

-- Alex

 

[Michael S. Azrael]

What do you suggest to "remove beliefs?" Brainwashing? Ethnic cleansing? Firing squads? Forcing people to get a little mark on their hand or head which proves they are not religious nutjobs?

Ideals cannot be killed. Only people can.

How about instead of supporting and abiding by them, we just stop using them

 

[DANGERECTION]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

I think you could be oversimplifying it though. I think most people do not believe something with all their heart. There's always a glimmer of doubt, and there's always faith to be tested. I think that if you're able to believe something 100% of the time, you're either running at an IQ too low to be considered capable of taking care of yourself or quite young. Many of my more religious friends talk about doubting their faith at some point or another.

Oh, I wasn't saying that anyone who has ever believed in god hasn't had doubts. I don't want to think those who say they don't are lying either. Its just the idea of having the ability to believe even just a little would be very comforting.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

What do you suggest to "remove beliefs?" Brainwashing? Ethnic cleansing? Firing squads? Forcing people to get a little mark on their hand or head which proves they are not religious nutjobs?

Ideals cannot be killed. Only people can.

How about instead of supporting and abiding by them, we just stop using them

Why? People like their faith. That's like asking someone to give up their family, their culture, their language, or their nationality. Do you not understand that it's an emotional thing for people?

 

[hyrulegaybar]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

I think you could be oversimplifying it though. I think most people do not believe something with all their heart. There's always a glimmer of doubt, and there's always faith to be tested. I think that if you're able to believe something 100% of the time, you're either running at an IQ too low to be considered capable of taking care of yourself or quite young. Many of my more religious friends talk about doubting their faith at some point or another.

Oh, I wasn't saying that anyone who has ever believed in god hasn't had doubts. I don't want to think those who say they don't are lying either. Its just the idea of having the ability to believe even just a little would be very comforting.

I put it to people this way: if you think that there's an invisible force that pulls two objects of differing masses to the ground at the same rate, congrats. You now know what it's like to believe, because we still don't quite know how that force works. We just know it exists and that we've measured it. If you pull that back a little and replace your confirmation of existence to just belief and feeling, then you know what it's like. Does that help?

 

[Echelon_3]

A lot of our laws today are derived from Biblical rules of conduct.

A lot of our laws today are derived from basic human moral intuitions which handily predate the Bible.

Spoiler

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Commandments one, three, and four are all quite obvious control mechanisms to keep the faithful in line.
Commandment two just plain doesn't make sense - It almost seems to be prohibiting art.
Commandments five through ten are all based on human moral intuition.

We could come up with a way better list of commandments than the ten the Bible states. Furthermore, the Ten Commandments says nothing prohibiting slavery - Indeed, the Old Testament drones on and on about the minutiae of owning slaves. Does that mean slavery should be legal?

God gave the Israelites carte blanche to genocide their way across Palestine. Does that mean that the modern state of Israel is within its rights to ethnically cleanse their nation?

Biblical literalism can get people in a lot of trouble, really fast.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

What do you suggest to "remove beliefs?" Brainwashing? Ethnic cleansing? Firing squads? Forcing people to get a little mark on their hand or head which proves they are not religious nutjobs?

Ideals cannot be killed. Only people can.

How about instead of supporting and abiding by them, we just stop using them

How about you use your head and realize why this is impossible.

See, your statement was phrased like a question but did not contain a question mark. Thus I have returned the favor with a question placed in statement form. Observe the hilarity.

Basically what you're calling for is a complete, World-wide consensus on religion, and a worldwide decision to stop abiding by ANY religious rules which stress or emphasis difference. And you don't see a SINGLE reason why this won't work? Why it cannot possibly work? Why, even if it DID work, something EXACTLY like it would spring up almost instantly to divide people?

Not to mention completely ignoring my previous post, where I pretty much said all of this. G'bye, have a nice day, I'm out.

 

[DANGERECTION]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

I think you could be oversimplifying it though. I think most people do not believe something with all their heart. There's always a glimmer of doubt, and there's always faith to be tested. I think that if you're able to believe something 100% of the time, you're either running at an IQ too low to be considered capable of taking care of yourself or quite young. Many of my more religious friends talk about doubting their faith at some point or another.

Oh, I wasn't saying that anyone who has ever believed in god hasn't had doubts. I don't want to think those who say they don't are lying either. Its just the idea of having the ability to believe even just a little would be very comforting.

I put it to people this way: if you think that there's an invisible force that pulls two objects of differing masses to the ground at the same rate, congrats. You now know what it's like to believe, because we still don't quite know how that force works. We just know it exists and that we've measured it. If you pull that back a little and replace your confirmation of existence to just belief and feeling, then you know what it's like. Does that help?

It doesn't work that way at all. I think you just pulled a logical fallacy on me there. Gravity and God are two very different things that you can believe in.

 

[hyrulegaybar]

If I could change my brain to be the kind that would believe in a god and an afterlife, I definitely would.

Even with all the rules and dogma around any faith, theres something massively re-assuring about the idea of being able to believe in something like that with all my heart.

I think you could be oversimplifying it though. I think most people do not believe something with all their heart. There's always a glimmer of doubt, and there's always faith to be tested. I think that if you're able to believe something 100% of the time, you're either running at an IQ too low to be considered capable of taking care of yourself or quite young. Many of my more religious friends talk about doubting their faith at some point or another.

Oh, I wasn't saying that anyone who has ever believed in god hasn't had doubts. I don't want to think those who say they don't are lying either. Its just the idea of having the ability to believe even just a little would be very comforting.

I put it to people this way: if you think that there's an invisible force that pulls two objects of differing masses to the ground at the same rate, congrats. You now know what it's like to believe, because we still don't quite know how that force works. We just know it exists and that we've measured it. If you pull that back a little and replace your confirmation of existence to just belief and feeling, then you know what it's like. Does that help?

It doesn't work that way at all. I think you just pulled a logical fallacy on me there. Gravity and God are two very different things that you can believe in.

Argh, no. I didn't. I was trying to explain to you what it's like to believe in something. Only with gravity you can measure the effects physically. With God, you would measure the effects emotionally or intangibly. I was drawing a parallel.

 

[Michael S. Azrael]

How about instead of supporting and abiding by them, we just stop using them

Why? People like their faith. That's like asking someone to give up their family, their culture, their language, or their nationality. Do you not understand that it's an emotional thing for people?

That is why I made this post, I don't understand, I'm asking for your opinion. It seems that my igorance has offended but very simply, I don't get religion and my understanding of it is flawed and incomplete. I apologise, I meant you not offence, I just needed someone to fill in the gaps.

 

[LooK iTz Jinjo]

I just do not understand religion, it goes against basic human instinct, which is to learn, understand and accept but religion tells that somethings that are different and doesn't conform is wrong and must be destoryed. .

First off I'm also an Atheist. But me say off the bat I don't disagree with the idea of God (though I do not believe in one) I disagree with the concept of religion and what I believe it stands for.

Well if you get down to it basic human instinct comes down to three things (as it does with every living, thinking creature): Safety, Food and Fucking. Religion falls into the "safety" part as 2000+ years ago we didn't have science to explain things and so these "educated" men decided to explain it themselves. How did they do that? They came up with religion and they wrote a book about it, a few books actually a few of which got into what we today call they Bible, which is of course hand picked by the Vatican from all Christian texts ever written with the ones that most talk up God, Jesus and Catholicism in general. Nobody ever talked to God, there was no burning bush and I guarantee you that no one ever actually performed a "miracle."

Religion makes people feel safe. They cling to it like they cling to everything else familiar in society because it's familiar to them and they feel comfortable. Now the problem here is that while many people in society have pure intentions about religion, behind the scenes we see one of the richest organizations on the planet, tax free. Now a majority of us here live in secular countries (I'm in Australia) which begs the question, why does religion (and the Catholic church in particular) rake in billions each year on a world wide scale and not pay once cent in tax? Could I not begin my own religion and call the government racist when they deny it as a full religion and make me pay tax?

For hundreds of years the people behind religion have been using it as an excuse to bend people to their will. The crusades? Yeah it wasn't about getting back their "Holy Land" and religion, it was about the English and the Turks fighting over land. Just like the war on Iraq wasn't about getting Hussian and terrorists but just about Bush having greater control over oil. This brings me to terrorists, they blow themselves up because they have been promised by preachers 72 virgins in heaven. Firstly why would you want 72 virgins? Everyones first time is terrible by comparison! Seriously though, they will not be getting any virgins where they are going, they will not be hailed by God for killing the infidel, they have been used as tools by people who want nothing more than destruction and power. And the reason they give? of course it's religion.