Well, then it's as simple as that. Religion is inextricably bound to one's family or one's culture. You cannot ask someone to give up something that they view as a key component of their identity without a lot of difficulty.Michael S. Azrael said:
What is the point of God?
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This topic is going to devolve into a horrible flame war.
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To the original poster:
To be honest, what we need religion for is to instill values and to provide a higher order to which we can refer. Certainly, the Bible doesn't mention MP3 players, but it does talk about how to lead, how to follow, and how to treat other people. Included in that are a number of behavioral rules, some of which invoke some extreme punishments, which were often scaled down in actual practice. It also teaches how to view oneself, when to restrain oneself, how to address yourself, and how to set priorities.
Without religion, without faith, without God, there is no logical framework for morality or the establishment of values. I've been a member of society and spent my life observing people - I have ceased to believe in humanity. Humanity, left in a vacuum, does not form a utopia, but rather a chaotic mess where the strongest and most manipulative thrive. Only by having a social, moral order supported and followed by the majority is there any sort of goodness brought out in society. But without an ideal to cling to, there is no reason for us to restrain our darker impulses other than fear of retribution. And in a society as populated as ours, we can do many, many things to unknowns without that fear.
You talk about how religion drives people to persecute those who are different. But a lack of religion, or in fact any strong belief in anything, can incite people to targeted violence. All that it takes to have 'divine justification' outside of religious faith is for someone's deeply held values to be perceived as being attacked for fuel... and the right person or events to drop the match.
Even secular people have their religion - even secular people have their dogma. That given sufficient time and application of science, anything can be accomplished... that is a dogma and a half. An untested belief - an overextension of faith in an admittedly powerful tool.
The greatest gift of religion to mankind is the inherent understanding that we not only have a common struggle, but common limits.
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If there is no judgement after death - and if pleasure is the purpose of life - then there is no reason not to kill, steal, and harm in order to achieve our ends while our bodies are still young and our minds still sharp, other than fear of retribution. And if order is sufficiently broken down, because society has no strong opinions anymore, then that fear dissolves as no one can be held to account.
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To the original poster:
To be honest, what we need religion for is to instill values and to provide a higher order to which we can refer. Certainly, the Bible doesn't mention MP3 players, but it does talk about how to lead, how to follow, and how to treat other people. Included in that are a number of behavioral rules, some of which invoke some extreme punishments, which were often scaled down in actual practice. It also teaches how to view oneself, when to restrain oneself, how to address yourself, and how to set priorities.
Without religion, without faith, without God, there is no logical framework for morality or the establishment of values. I've been a member of society and spent my life observing people - I have ceased to believe in humanity. Humanity, left in a vacuum, does not form a utopia, but rather a chaotic mess where the strongest and most manipulative thrive. Only by having a social, moral order supported and followed by the majority is there any sort of goodness brought out in society. But without an ideal to cling to, there is no reason for us to restrain our darker impulses other than fear of retribution. And in a society as populated as ours, we can do many, many things to unknowns without that fear.
You talk about how religion drives people to persecute those who are different. But a lack of religion, or in fact any strong belief in anything, can incite people to targeted violence. All that it takes to have 'divine justification' outside of religious faith is for someone's deeply held values to be perceived as being attacked for fuel... and the right person or events to drop the match.
Even secular people have their religion - even secular people have their dogma. That given sufficient time and application of science, anything can be accomplished... that is a dogma and a half. An untested belief - an overextension of faith in an admittedly powerful tool.
The greatest gift of religion to mankind is the inherent understanding that we not only have a common struggle, but common limits.
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If there is no judgement after death - and if pleasure is the purpose of life - then there is no reason not to kill, steal, and harm in order to achieve our ends while our bodies are still young and our minds still sharp, other than fear of retribution. And if order is sufficiently broken down, because society has no strong opinions anymore, then that fear dissolves as no one can be held to account.
Firstly, it was Rhteroical, so there is no need for the question. With your point about a world-wide consensus on religion, I'm not asking people to stop believing or give up religion. This post is not an anti-semitic rant, I just need some gaps in my knowledge and understanding filled in.Samurai Goomba said:
One thing I have begun to notice in some replies is that people are getting off topic and are trying to pick apart flaws in what I wrote. I was not trying to start a debate, I only had a question which I wished to have answered.
to be in the way of human evolution and keep us in the dark ages therefore i reject religion and "god"
I don't want people to give up their religion, though I do not believ in God myself, I respect them for what they believe. They have such faith in something that is improvable and endless devotion to it, a commendable attribute.hyrulegaybar said:
Nobody ever talked to God, there was no burning bush and I guarantee you that no one ever actually performed a "miracle."
Actually, to be honest, I've 'talked to God' and gotten pretty close to prophecy. You can probably try to find a secular explanation - something like the unconscious mind percieving things about the world, processing them independently and alarmingly accurately, and feeding them back without a context rooted in cause and effect... But if you were to ask me, yes, I've talked to God. And, yes, I've heard him answer.
The best metaphor I can find is that of resonance: if you tune two strings to the same note, and pluck one, the other will stir even though it has been untouched. That is what it is like to 'hear' God, and I cannot even describe what it's like to be touched directly.
Actually, to be honest, I've 'talked to God' and gotten pretty close to prophecy. You can probably try to find a secular explanation - something like the unconscious mind percieving things about the world, processing them independently and alarmingly accurately, and feeding them back without a context rooted in cause and effect... But if you were to ask me, yes, I've talked to God. And, yes, I've heard him answer.
The best metaphor I can find is that of resonance: if you tune two strings to the same note, and pluck one, the other will stir even though it has been untouched. That is what it is like to 'hear' God, and I cannot even describe what it's like to be touched directly.
I know what you're trying to say, but there is no way to make someone understand that feeling when they've never felt it. You're basically trying to describe what a tree looks like in fall colors to a blind person. Something like having faith in god is completely intangible for someone who has never had faith in god. I was raised without that in my life, and I think its one of those things you're kind of born with or you never haveMichael S. Azrael said:
The simpliest conclusion I can come to from all your responses is, that God and religion were the answers to the questions no one could answer
to be in the way of human evolution and keep us in the dark ages therefore i reject religion and "god"
The Christian religion produced some of the greatest scientific minds of history, including Newton and Copernicus, as well as Mendel, off the top of my head. It also spread and popularized the notion of an orderly universe not controlled by whimsical gods, but established in consistency by a unified Creator.
While Christianity has occasionally been adversarial to certain scientific discoveries, it has also preserved a great deal of knowledge through the Dark Ages and supported some very important scientific minds.
Believing in God does not imply that one rejects science, but instead implies that one believes the universe to have been established intelligently - that things within the universe exist for a purpose and not haphazardly - that the world follows a will - and that ultimately there are forces above our categorization and control.
The Christian religion produced some of the greatest scientific minds of history, including Newton and Copernicus, as well as Mendel, off the top of my head. It also spread and popularized the notion of an orderly universe not controlled by whimsical gods, but established in consistency by a unified Creator.
While Christianity has occasionally been adversarial to certain scientific discoveries, it has also preserved a great deal of knowledge through the Dark Ages and supported some very important scientific minds.
Believing in God does not imply that one rejects science, but instead implies that one believes the universe to have been established intelligently - that things within the universe exist for a purpose and not haphazardly - that the world follows a will - and that ultimately there are forces above our categorization and control.
well then i must say im sorry but i just said exactly what i think the point of god isMichael S. Azrael said:
Answer me this, then, Azrael (oh Angel),
Do you think that there are not still questions that no one can answer?
Do you think that there is a power that undergirds the universe, a framework upon which all exists?
Do you believe that a perfect understanding of the structure of the universe is a full understanding of the universe?
Do you think that there are not still questions that no one can answer?
Do you think that there is a power that undergirds the universe, a framework upon which all exists?
Do you believe that a perfect understanding of the structure of the universe is a full understanding of the universe?
See, I'd disagree with you on that point. Various societies managed to get by just fine without god, for thousands of years in several cases. I see where you're coming from, but its not necessarily true. By the same token, a religious system can even be used to enforce a 'chaotic mess where the strongest and most manipulative thrive'. It goes both ways, and the tone of a societies moral compass is impacted by more than just belief in a deity or deities.Nathan StormRider said:
I've been to wordy and spammed the thread.
The simplest reason for religion is so that people can make sense of the world, set goals for the shape of their own mind and spirit, and treat others kindly, as well as distinguish what is right and wrong or desireable and undesireable in their society.
The simplest reason for religion is so that people can make sense of the world, set goals for the shape of their own mind and spirit, and treat others kindly, as well as distinguish what is right and wrong or desireable and undesireable in their society.
See, I'd disagree with you on that point. Various societies managed to get by just fine without god, for thousands of years in several cases. I see where you're coming from, but its not necessarily true. By the same token, a religious system can even be used to enforce a 'chaotic mess where the strongest and most manipulative thrive'. It goes both ways, and the tone of a societies moral compass is impacted by more than just belief in a deity or deities.
I agree that there's definitely more to morality than theism. But I don't see where the framework comes into being, except that, 'just because', or 'because we're made that way'. Even if that's, 'because we're made that way so that we can die later and have more kids'.
Still, there have been religions that ritually tortured or sacrificed humans. Slavery has existed in every culture and still exists today. I can't claim belief in deity itself is a predictor of morality.
I know agnostics who are moral, so that's not a question. But I don't know about those agnostic / atheistic societies you reference. Source?
I still feel that even in this society that isn't 'religious', people still are trying to find or make an organized philosophical system to explain the universe and guide or justify their behavior.
I agree that there's definitely more to morality than theism. But I don't see where the framework comes into being, except that, 'just because', or 'because we're made that way'. Even if that's, 'because we're made that way so that we can die later and have more kids'.
Still, there have been religions that ritually tortured or sacrificed humans. Slavery has existed in every culture and still exists today. I can't claim belief in deity itself is a predictor of morality.
I know agnostics who are moral, so that's not a question. But I don't know about those agnostic / atheistic societies you reference. Source?
I still feel that even in this society that isn't 'religious', people still are trying to find or make an organized philosophical system to explain the universe and guide or justify their behavior.
My opinion about the "point of God"
I am really going to throw a monkeywrench into the statement, because there is no point to God. Your basic assumption is that God is a creation of the human mind, this is ( in my opinion) is seriously flawed.
The reality is, God exists outside of the human mind. Humans have an innate desire to find order, our minds are structured to find reason and meaning. As such, we are born with the desire to find GOD.
Now, the search for God ( ie reason, order, and design) has been undertaken by virtually every culture or civilization since the dawn of time. Many different theories have been produced as to the nature of God. It is up to the individual person to decide which theory fits best with the concept of order, design, and reason.
In my opinion, the only spiritual concept that makes any sense is Christianity. However, I do not apply that to "religion". To say that the (for example) Catholic concepts are absolute, and correct with what God wants, is flawed. Instead, I find that Jesus, his life, death, and return to life, fit best with what our basic human nature has indicated we should have desire for.
As such, any attempt to reject the idea of God, would fly in the face of basic human nature. Instead, it is based on "learned" human nature.
Essentially, the reasons for Athiesm are:
1. The desire to not be held accountable for your actions.
2. The desire to be all powerful, and/or in complete control.
3. The hatred, or dislike for religion, or more specifically, the people of a religion.
Although there may be exceptions to these reasons, or other reasons for Athiesm, I have never heard, read about, or talked to, an Athiest who didn't fall into one or more of these catagories.
So, a better question to ask would be, what is the point of humans?
I am really going to throw a monkeywrench into the statement, because there is no point to God. Your basic assumption is that God is a creation of the human mind, this is ( in my opinion) is seriously flawed.
The reality is, God exists outside of the human mind. Humans have an innate desire to find order, our minds are structured to find reason and meaning. As such, we are born with the desire to find GOD.
Now, the search for God ( ie reason, order, and design) has been undertaken by virtually every culture or civilization since the dawn of time. Many different theories have been produced as to the nature of God. It is up to the individual person to decide which theory fits best with the concept of order, design, and reason.
In my opinion, the only spiritual concept that makes any sense is Christianity. However, I do not apply that to "religion". To say that the (for example) Catholic concepts are absolute, and correct with what God wants, is flawed. Instead, I find that Jesus, his life, death, and return to life, fit best with what our basic human nature has indicated we should have desire for.
As such, any attempt to reject the idea of God, would fly in the face of basic human nature. Instead, it is based on "learned" human nature.
Essentially, the reasons for Athiesm are:
1. The desire to not be held accountable for your actions.
2. The desire to be all powerful, and/or in complete control.
3. The hatred, or dislike for religion, or more specifically, the people of a religion.
Although there may be exceptions to these reasons, or other reasons for Athiesm, I have never heard, read about, or talked to, an Athiest who didn't fall into one or more of these catagories.
So, a better question to ask would be, what is the point of humans?
I know and you might be right but some people might have taken offence to it, I don't want anyone banned because of my threadMirrorMonkey said: