What is the problem with Star Wars?

[anonymity88]

Doesn't that mean he was not the chosen one and balance can't be brought to the force? Doesn't that make the six movies utterly pointless then?!

Think about it this way, when Anakin fell to the dark side there were a fair few jedi and 2 sith. Anakin wiped out all but 2 jedi. You can't get much mroe balanced than 2 on 2. Balance should mean light and shade so the Sith can't go away.

OT: Lucas needs an editor. Star Wars games need less Jedi who aren't called Kyle Katarn.

 

[Neverhoodian]

It's funny this topic should be brought up now, as just yesterday I was thinking about what makes a Star Wars game good. Based on my personal experiences and preferences, I came up with the following:

*Ideally, Star Wars games should not take place during the prequel era. Let's face it, the prequels and its Clone Wars CGI offspring are easily the most divisive topic in the Star Wars fandom (I personally only liked the Phantom Menace and the Clone Wars cartoon that was made by Samurai Jack's creators). Even those who like the prequels will often admit that they feel the original trilogy was better. Many of my favorite Star Wars titles are either set during or following the events of the original movies, or are far removed timeline-wise from the films like KOTOR.

*The player should be able to explore uncharted territory (both metaphorically and literally). I frequently find myself bored when I'm thrust into the shoes of Luke Skywalker to make yet another Death Star trench run, trip up yet more AT-ATs at Hoth, or duel with Vader yet again at Endor. We've all seen the movies, we know how the story plays out. It's nothing we haven't seen before. On the other hand, I got excited when I stepped into the shoes of Luke Skywalker for Rogue Squadron. This can be attributed to two factors: the missions took place BETWEEN the events in A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back, and many of the locations were planets that were only mentioned in the books. It was thrilling to learn what your favorite Rebel heroes were doing between films, especially since you were the one guiding them through it.

*Taking my previous statement a step further, the most immersive Star Wars games for me are the ones where the player himself/herself is the star with their own adventures. KOTOR, the X-Wing series, and the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight games are a few examples of this. All of the characters in these games were created specifically for the gaming medium, which gave the player a sense of personal ownership. You weren't just going through the motions of reliving the movies, you were putting your own personal watermark on the Star Wars universe. Sometimes your efforts would directly affect the events of the films, and you were often rewarded by rubbing elbows with the titular characters. It was the ultimate reward to end up flying as Darth Vader's wingman or swapping jokes with Lando Calrissian, because you knew it was well-earned.

 

[Anah'ya]

tl;dr: Star Wars fans need to shut the fuck up and do something productive with the time they spend moaning.

[sub]First of, my apologies for quoting you, but out of all of them this one seemed the best place to sink my anchor and write up a reply. [/sub]

I'm a Star Wars fan. Been one since I was around 12, and was brought up in the glory of the original movies and the expanded universe circling them, both the books and the games. I own every book and most comics, even went as far as to purchase the "fact books" introduced back then, as I was thrilled to delve deeper into the engaging universe that Star Wars was.

And then came the show stoppers. My alarm bells first started ringing when the new generation of main characters were introduced, and went utterly haywire as the New Jedi Order rolled in. Their attempt at bringing "grit" to the universe, the introduction of a new force of evil and the complete blowing out of proportions of the significance and skill of the young generation left me sick and had me abandon the books.

Things were just running on for too long, and it felt as though they were just circling history and re-telling everything that had already happened with a slightly different flavour. Just let it rest, I figured.

There was still KotoR, the Thrawn Trilogy, Rogue Squadron and the Jedi Knight games. Those were gems that I could hold onto. They didn't overdo things, didn't try to change the workings of the Star Wars Universe, and fitted in well with the already existing setting.

And then came the Prequels and the digital remastering of the original trilogy. Now I never liked George Lucas a lot. But this is where I believe he took things too far. He literally stomped all over his creation, all in favour of making Star Wars more accessible to the audience that would gobble up his merchandise. And it was worse than Han not dying and fluffy Ewoks toppling the Galactic Empire. Something I thought not possible.

I won't list the flaws of the Prequels (except briefly brushing the Midiclorians and Jesu--Anakin's horrible, horrible, HORRIBLE character development arch), but instead I'll just point at the digital remastering of the Originals.

Small changes. Han Solo not shooting first. REMOVING Vader from original Celebration Scene in RotJ and replacing him with the new brat... I shudder at these things.

Sure. He has the right. Sure, most people won't give a toss. But from where I am standing it is just fundamentally wrong to introduce such drastic change into something that has existed and has been dear to fans all over the world for so many years. It's as though a remake of Alien was to reveal that Ellen Ripley was the Chosen one, raised and trained by Predators who were in truth only ever out to protect the Earth, after the humans gained their respect as seen in the new Prequels, Alien vs. Predator 1/2 and Predator(s)/II.

*shudders*

... and don't even get me started on Starkiller, his ridiculous powers, along with other lore killing aspects, and the writer of that piece of shit deciding he is the one responsible for the Rebellion. Though after reading the first Old Republic book he wrote I am no longer surprised... man. I have seen Fan Fiction on FanFiction.Net with a better grasp of all things Star Wars.

 

[Amphoteric]

The only good Star wars games I've played are are
KOTOR
KOTOR 2
Battlefront
Battlefront 2
Rupublic Commando - I have completed the campaign at least 5 times.

 

[Cid Silverwing]

Lucas can't hear your complaints over the roar of his waterfall of money.

+1 Internet.

OT: The problem with Star Wars is it's basically become a variation of Christianity. I shit you not, the whole Jedi thing has actually become a real religion.

 

[TyrantGanado]

*le snippity*

First off, no worries, it's always good to see different opinions. I'm not gonna sit here and pick apart what you've said since I understand Star Wars does indeed have its wallbanger moments that make you want to punch the author. That being said I think the quality of a lot of the universe is subjective so what one person likes another will loathe. Well, except the Holiday Special, everyone hates that.

My issue isn't with people saying it sucks, everyone has an opinion, my issue is with the people who never shut up about how everything after the cinematic release version of The Empire Strikes Back is turgid crap worthy of being banished to Hades for all eternity. The amount of time end energy spent on spewing venom at Star Wars is what bothers me, the fact that people feel they're entitled to everything as though God Himself willed it.

To those people I simply say: relax. Chill the fuck out, go find something else to like and seriously, spend your life enjoying something as opposed to spending every waking hour ribbing on Star Wars and accusing everyone who likes the material you don't of being a heathen. Seriously. Sometimes people enjoy the stuff you don't.

Again, that's mostly general ranting, not all directed at you Anah'ya

 

[Vos 47]

The KOTOR franchise was a bit of a mixed bag for me. I like to think of KOTOR 1 as the original trilogy; simply good vs evil, a nice twist in the middle and an epic finale. But while KOTOR 1 felt like being part of the action, KOTOR 2 felt like filling in all the paperwork afterwards.

Sure, it's cool to see that your actions in the first game have screwed things up so much in the second, but the exile is essentially just part of the clean-up crew. While the places that you visit in KOTOR 1 were rich and vibrant, like Manaan, Taris and even fucking Tatooine, everywhere in KOTOR 2 just feels like a shithole.

Yer, maybe it was a design choice by Obsidian to reflect the change in mood and I did like the small sections on Onderon, which doesnt quite feel as fucked up as everywhere else. But I know that I'll look back at KOTOR 1 with fond memories of walking down the street on Tatooine threatening to remove everyone's face because I didnt like the look they were giving me (Dark side +3) and the only thing I'll look back and see in KOTOR 2 was the crashed loading screen at the very start of the Treyus academy meaning I could never complete the damn game...

That said, the franchise is amongst the best PC games I have ever played. Just thought I'd point that out.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

The problem is that Lucas still thinks it's just a story. When about 100,000 people in America list their religion as 'Jedi' in the Census, it's a tad bit more than just 'his story'.

No, it really isn't. Right now there are millions of people who follow sports with religious fervor. When their teams win they celebrate with them. When they lose, they mourn with them. But the story of each game rarely ever includes the fans themselves. Those who are on the field are the ones responsible for the story. Those on the sidelines are simply observers and not participants. It matters not how much they have invested of themselves in the outcome as the outcome.

I am fine with the notion that people do not like where he has taken the story. I am fine with the notion that people prefer to ignore certain bits of the canon because it doesn't suit their tastes. But just because you can create your own person edit of the story that is Star Wars does not mean the story belongs to you. Just the version you created for yourself belongs to you. Just as the bits George Lucas created belong to him.

The one thing that does bug me in all of this is when people assert someone doesn't own their ideas and creations, or worse that someone does not deserve to own their own ideas or creations.

 

[FFHAuthor]

The problem is that Lucas still thinks it's just a story. When about 100,000 people in America list their religion as 'Jedi' in the Census, it's a tad bit more than just 'his story'.

No, it really isn't. Right now there are millions of people who follow sports with religious fervor. When their teams win they celebrate with them. When they lose, they mourn with them. But the story of each game rarely ever includes the fans themselves. Those who are on the field are the ones responsible for the story. Those on the sidelines are simply observers and not participants. It matters not how much they have invested of themselves in the outcome as the outcome.

I am fine with the notion that people do not like where he has taken the story. I am fine with the notion that people prefer to ignore certain bits of the canon because it doesn't suit their tastes. But just because you can create your own person edit of the story that is Star Wars does not mean the story belongs to you. Just the version you created for yourself belongs to you. Just as the bits George Lucas created belong to him.

The one thing that does bug me in all of this is when people assert someone doesn't own their ideas and creations, or worse that someone does not deserve to own their own ideas or creations.

I'm not speaking to the idea that people can become fanatical about anything. On the contrary, I'm trying to make the point that the perception of what George Lucas has is radically different from the perception that the fans have. No one person can claim to own Football, it's a sport, a game, something that's enjoyed on playgrounds and open fields, played in High Schools and Colleges and professionally for billions of dollars. You can't claim football, you can't crack down and say that Football is one man's vision and all the changes that have been made to it are moot point, that one person's fiat over the game decides how it is played, what the rules are, and that obliviates all other perceptions and ideas of Football.

What Star Wars has become is more than just a story, more than one man's idea. Does he own the rights to that idea? Oh yes, the only person that gets the money from Star Wars is him in the end, he owns it, he created it, it is his. George Lucas owns Star Wars.

But what about all the pieces that he's sold off to others? The pieces that were made by others with his approval? The books and games and stories and characters that other people made, that are their intellectual property? Do they not own their characters? Is anything related to Star Wars automatically the property of George Lucas regardless of who made it? Does George Lucas own my Star Wars Roleplaying Game D6 characters? Does he own the stories and ideas floating inside my head because he owns Star Wars? Does he posess the right to alter what I have made because he made something before that?

The problem that exists isn't that Star Wars has different meanings to different people, it isn't that George Lucas shouldn't have control...the issue is that George Lucas willingly relinquished a sizeable chunk of his control over the Star Wars Cannon, he gave it up to other writers, and yet he excersized control in what those writers created. It's a murky place to dwel, but the weght of things that were created in the name of Star Wars vastly outweights the six films that Lucas wrote.

No one held a gun to his head, no one forced him to let others write official stories under the LucasArts liscence, but he made that choice. Just as I've given ten dollars to a donation can, the group I'm donating too didn't force me to give, but I can't exactly take back that money can I?

If you give up your control, you get compensated for it, can you truly claim you still own something? Or have you sold it off piecemeal?

I Believe that George Lucas sold off his right to have a creative hand in the Star Wars Cannon when he authorized prequel stories to be written. (Bearing in mind that those were authorized after the origional Trilogy.) He stipulated that Star Wars books could be written, but they could not take place after episodes 4, 5, and 6. He reserved the right to create and influence, but in essense he gave the prequels up to other writers. He did that 20 years before The Phantom Menace. Then he authorized the first sequel stories, and he gave over control of the series after the origional trilogy more than ten years before Phantom.


We can't really think of Star Wars as any other kind of Intellectual property. It's not so much a series of Movies, as it is more like a House. The Archetect designs the house, has it built, and then sells it to a family. Ten years later, after the family has done their own renovations and modifications to their home, the Archetiect walks back in and starts ripping up the carpet and knocking down their patio room because 'it's his creation and he can do as he wants'.

Sounds slightly ludicrous, right?

 

[Neverhoodian]

snip

Wow, you took the words right out of my mouth. I salute you, fellow Star Wars fan of the 90s.

another snip

I have to agree wholeheartedly with you as well. Star Wars is such a cultural juggernaut that it's too big for one man to dictate everything about it. Oh sure, George owns the IP and gets a share of all revenue made, but he should have respected the series for the sake of the fans. If nothing else, we're the ones who made him obscenely wealthy in the first place.

I'll always be grateful George came up with the Star Wars universe in the first place, but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass for his subsequent careless handling of the series.

 

[Saltyk]

Star Wars games. So many great games. Yes, there are some garbage games, but that to be expected from anything. And they make the best of the best shine that much brighter. KOTOR and the Star Wars Battlefront series.

Incidentally, I'm kind of excited about Star Wars: The Old Republic. They seem to be taking all the best aspects of KOTOR and putting it in a MMO. And the crafting system looks like the kind that even a person who hates crafting could get into. Deep, but not something that you have to dedicate yourself to to get good results. Still early, but time will tell.

What is wrong with Star Wars? A lot. The original movies were great, to me the prequels were hit and miss but I like them. Aside from the six movies, the original Knights of the Old Republic, Republic Commando and the orginal Battlefront, Star Wars has become rubbish to me.

I blame everything on the expanded universe. The worst thing about the expanded universe is any story that takes place after Episode 6. The death of Chewbacca, the shame of Boba Fett falling into the Sarlacc two more times, a second galactic civil war, but worst of all, the return of the sith.
In the prequels Anakin was meant to be the chosen one who would destroy the sith completely. Think about it, Palpatine came back three times from the dead, the child of Han and Leia became a sith and Jedi A'Sharad Hett who fought in the clone wars became Darth Krayt and created the order of the one sith a hundred years after episode 6. Now, with the sith alive and well, doesn't that mean that Anakin died in vain? Doesn't that mean he was not the chosen one and balance can't be brought to the force? Doesn't that make the six movies utterly pointless then?!

What happened? What happened to telling a good story? What happened to the magic of Star Wars?

Star Wars needs to end and exist only as memories.

I hear that the extended universe is largely just a fan fiction. That none of it really has anything to do with the canon of the Star Wars universe. Basically, it's fun to read, but Lucas can simply say that it is not part of his story if he deems so. So, as far as Lucas is concerned Boba Fett died in Episode VI. Sorry, Star Wars fans.

I enjoyed the prequels. I wouldn't say they were masterpieces by any stretch of the imagination, but they were an interesting addition to the Star Wars universe and kind of fleshed out what it meant to be a Jedi during the Golden Age of the Jedi. Before Palpatine took over the Republic.

As for Anakin being the chosen one, someone once said something interesting. The prophecy they cite mentions a person that would bring balance to the force. Not they he would eradicate the Sith from the galaxy. Anakin, by becoming a Sith and eradicating the Jedi, did bring balance to the force. Before that, the Jedi were one of the dominate forces in the galaxy. He and Luke destroyed the Jedi and the Sith together. Together they were the chosen ones. And even beyond that, Palpatine suggests in Episode 3 that he created Anakin. Think back to the conversation he had with Anakin at the opera. He says that some Sith were even capable of creating life. Some believe this suggests that somehow Palpatine created Anakin. How he managed that, I don't know, but it is an interesting idea since it would mean that there was no chosen one to begin with.

And what happens after you bring balance to something anyway? Will it be forever balanced? No. The world is full of Chaos. You might bring a balance temporarily, but things will eventually become unbalanced. Besides, all they did was kill Palpatine. But that which created him and the Sith still exists in the galaxy. In fact, there's no way you could eradicate that. That would require the destruction of the galaxy itself.

I disagree that KOTOR 2 wasn't great. It developed an awful lot of the concepts of the first game, had an interesting storyline and universally great characters.

The one consistent criticism is that it has a story which is quite hard to understand, and which seems to start and end quite abruptly, but in terms of the ideas covered within that story it's incredibly developed. The anti-climatic ending really wasn't so bad when you dig into it..

Spoiler

Think about it, you save the force itself from being destroyed and uncover the machinations of the actual Sith Empire who were clearly meant to be the big bad of the entire series.

But really, go back and play KOTOR 2's middle sections. It's bigger, deeper and more polished than the original in almost every way. All it really needed was a third game to tie up the loose ends.

I like KOTOR2, but the fact that they shipped an incomplete product bothers me. There were so many incomplete things in the game. It also seemed a little unbalanced because by the end, you could take out whole groups without flinching.

But, you are right. Bioware was preparing the Sith Empire to be the Big Bad. That seems to be what they are doing in Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

[MrGalactus]

The problem is that the series just won't end. It's eating away at it's own artistic value.

 

[Zakarath]

There was still KotoR, the Thrawn Trilogy, Rogue Squadron and the Jedi Knight games. Those were gems that I could hold onto. They didn't overdo things, didn't try to change the workings of the Star Wars Universe, and fitted in well with the already existing setting.

Ah... good times.

On the prequels: What I think is the most DEFINING change and why they were so much worse:
They changed from being adventure movies in a sci-fi setting to being sci-fi movies in a sci-fi setting(and poorly done ones at that), and I feel that it really ruined the feel.
That and the metaphysics. Don't get me started on the number of good series (movies and books) that got worse and worse as they got mired on their own metaphysics...

Star Wars, The Matrix, the Ender series... (I could go on, but my tastes can be pretty esoteric, and I'll have probably lost everyone by the time I get to The Dragon Quartet.)

 

[PurePareidolia]

The first 3 movies were great, but the prequels were so ghastly that little of them remains untainted. When I look back on the movies, not a single villain is remotely threatening. Like how Darth Vader was Anakin and The stormtroopers are a laughing stock and have been for years.

The Jedi Knight series was brilliant, but the Force unleashed was mediocre at best. The former were a shining example of first person shooting mixed with powers and lightsaber duels, but the latter could have played just as well without even having a lightsaber, leaving you playing Gary Stu, destroyer of worlds.

Then KOTOR series the took the setting and conventions, tied them up, slammed them into a coffin and launched it into a sun - it deconstructed the entire galaxy so thoroughly and masterfully that I can't even see it without KOTOR 2's heavy veil of cynicism and contempt. How can the Jedi be heroes when they're really just a lawful version of the Sith? How can Darth Vader be intimidating when the prequels happened? How can the force be a positive thing when it's self contradictory and enslaves the minds of it's users? Why do Jedi have to be light or dark when one can do the wrong things for the right reasons and vice versa?

The fact that KOTOR 2 had so much to deconstruct simply because nobody had done it before seemed to indicate that nobody had even given it any thought - it ran on nonsense and midichlorians and only now did anyone stop and say "wait, why is any of this happening?".

And did I mention how much the prequels sucked?

 

[Nieroshai]

Dark Forces, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy were all good games too, and from what I've heard the X-Wing and TIE Fighter games were all quite well done.

Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith are still two of my favorite games of all time, even if they are a little dated now. Never got to play Jedi Outcast because my computer died, taking my precious disc with it.

 

[Nieroshai]

Lucas can't hear your complaints over the roar of his waterfall of money.

+1 Internet.

OT: The problem with Star Wars is it's basically become a variation of Christianity. I shit you not, the whole Jedi thing has actually become a real religion.

More like a grossly-westernized oversimplification of Buddhism and Taoism.

EDIT: but I nitpick. Your essential meaning remains true.

 

[Veylon]

A big part of the problem is that they've let anyone and write their own stories and invent stuff. And then nobody can make it fit together again. There are shapeshifting aliens, aliens with pheremone mind control, other aliens that can see into the future. And none of them have any effect. They're just brought up for a book or a scene and then forgotten utterly. There are midichlorians that can be counted, ludicrously monumental architectural, a prophecy that can never be read or understood.

There's just gotten to be too much nonsense in the series. The greatness is gone and now it's all space battles and lightsabers. Remember when the Jedi stood for something more than flashy decapitations? Remember how Luke's ultimate triumph came about not through choreographed backflips and swordplay but self-sacrifice? I'll always hold out hope that someday things will be put right, but I sure don't see much sign of that happening.