What is wrong with Dark/Edgey?

[Wrex Brogan]

Dark's fine. There's nothing wrong with Dark. It's the 'edgy' that's the problem.

Dark stories are about people, either dealing with a terrible calamity or struggling to survive in an awful universe. They are grim, gritty, terrible things, either focusing on Hope as the last light guiding people through the darkness - or as something to be crushed in the climax as the terrors close in. Things like Warhammer 40k, Dead Space, The 2nd Captain America movie, Terry Pratchett's Snuff, Sin City... these are all dark stories (of varying shades and seriousness, mind you), but at the heart of them it's about the people involved in the stories and how they deal with the world they are in.

Edgy stories are about the actions, not the people. There's no actual reason for the actions. No emotion, no character. They're just dark for the sake of it. Take Man of Steel and Batman Vs. Superman - there's no real reason for Batman and Superman to kill people. It doesn't add anything to their characters (hell it subtracts, really). It's just... dark for the sake of it. Going 'yeah, here's how we show they're over the edge, they just murder! Murder all day! Fuckin' intense!'. There's no light in an edgy story, no goal or plan for survival, no hope, just... people doing terrible things to each other because it looks cool, probably.

Dark stories are wonderful. I love 'em. Some of my all time favourite stories and settings are dark ones (Gaunts Ghosts, Dark Souls, Bioshock, etc.), since they give me a reason to care. The worlds are gritty and horrible and full of death, but there's a flicker of hope in them, a desperate goal that makes me care for the characters involved.

Edgy stories? It's just fluff someone painted black. I don't care about all these people being atrocious to each other for the sake of it. There's no substance, no light, no end-game people are struggling towards. Just terrible people being terrible to each other. And I just don't care about that.

 

[CaitSeith]

Mainly because of the media trend of making things dark and edgy to attract a "mature" audience, that ended up being shallow and lacking a real purpose (it loses its charm after less than an hour), left an aftertaste in the audience that saw established characters lose their charm and identity for the sake of edginess.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The thing about Sin City being dark and edgy is that it was built around that. It's a crapsack world those characters live in, and the draw is watching them struggle to make some sort of difference, even if only for themselves.

The problem is when you take something that already exists and just slap the "dark and edgy" sticker over it and expect it to work. Brooding, murderous Superman doesn't work because it's a radical departure from his history, and when you do it just to draw a crowd, it rings supremely hollow.

 

[maninahat]

This is something that's been grinding my gears. It feels like everytime theres a new property or something, inevitably I see people complaining

"ohhhh look how hard it's trying to be dark and edgey and brooding"

As if any of those stylistic choices are bad things. Are you people seriously going to try and tell me something like Sin City isn't fucking cool? I like Dark/Edgey stuff. I loved Spiderman 3, when Spidey is being a dickhead and dancing around the room and seductively eating cookies in front of the teenage girl and telling people to go find religion when they ask for forgiveness. That shit was fun, it's still a terrible movie, but it's fun and interesting.

Why the hell does everything now need to be bright and sunny like a Marvel movie?

I think there is a distinction that can be made between the edgy that is Spiderman doing a Jazz dance, and the Edgy that is the gratuitous, puerile, po-faced, "adult content" the last couple of DC movies have come out with.

The former is edgy whilst still revelling in an established, colourful franchise that has never took itself seriously. The latter is trying so damn hard to be edgy, in a way that desperately tries to hide the fact that it is also an established colourful franchise.

Dark and gritty to me is just an annoying aesthetic choice, applied to far too many movies. Often it misses the mark, thinking that cleavage and blood are enough to make something look mature when it often does the opposite.

 

[2xDouble]

"ohhhh look how hard it's trying to be dark and edgey and brooding"

The key words here are not "dark and edgy", but rather "trying to be". It's the disingenuous, calculated pandering - the distillation of what "dark and edgy" means into singular, formulaic behavior or style - that people, like myself, find off-putting. They, the characters and people who ape them, are not doing these things or behaving this way because of how they personally feel, or their situation, but rather because that's how they think they're "supposed" to be/act; because "that's what the cool kids do". It's fake, over-dramatized (even for movie characters), and downright insulting to people who actually feel depressed, ignored, left-out, misanthropic, etc., etc. (i.e. literally everyone, especially teenagers and college students).

Ironically, the example you gave, the black suit Parker sequences in Spider-man 3, is an illustration of this behavior, rather than an example of it. Parker, in the movie, is doing exactly what he thinks he's supposed to be doing, which results in an awkward, clumsy, silly-looking sequence that doesn't look like it fits with the rest of the movie... and that's exactly the point. He's deliberately "trying" (there's that key word again) NOT to be himself, and it doesn't fit with the rest of his life.

Try not. Do, or do not. There is no "try".

PS edit: Excuse me, "Bright and sunny" Marvel movies? Have... have you seen any MCU movies? There's enough melodrama in those films to fill a dozen soap operas... or one Batman movie. The difference is, it's counterbalanced there by moments of joy, of excitement, of romance, of discovery, of contentment, of wonder... you know, how real life actually works. It's when that balance is disrupted, when those other things are removed, that the "edginess" feels forced and unnatural. For example: The current Superman franchise.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I agree with others that it's the "edgy" bit that's the problem, it's pretty much inherently a negative term.

So what makes it so negative? It's teenager-esque attention whoring by doing bad shit and exclaiming loudly how bad it all is. "Look at me being so tough and dark, LOOK AT MEEE!!!" In a way it's kinda pathetic and sad to want so hard to be taken seriously. But in the end edgy shit is shallow and ends up feeling immature through its demands to be seen as mature.

They're not going out of their way to be assholes, like in GTA5.

Eh, they're not really going out of their way to do that in GTA5. As in, they do that shit naturally, seeing as they're unstable career criminals and all that. Plus it's so farcical that I laugh more than anything, that's pretty much the antithesis of edgy which begs the audience to take it super seriously.

 

[default]

Well a scale of quality is important here, like anything. There is good dark-and-edgy and bad dark-and-edgy.


Good dark-and-edgy is stylish, gritty, engaging, confronting and intoxicating while still being at least a little self aware. Think Fight Club, Taxi Driver or Reservoir Dogs.

But badly written, badly made dark-and-edgy is often juvenile and pretentious. It shows an immaturity in taste and creative sensibilities, and often a lack of self awareness. Not saying you can't enjoy it for being silly and fun, but it's probably not going to have much substance or depth when taken seriously. (not elitist at all, honest)

This here though, this is real high-class sophisticated darkness.

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Dark/Edgy (Or Grimdark) work best when its the tone of a project as a whole, like it is in Sin City. It quickly falls apart why you try to jam it into stories of hope and give it a happy ending.

Just look at dark fiction that actually works - Batman (Solo), Judge Dredd, Warhammer 40k, Sin City. These are works where dark is all there is - There's no hope. Barely any joy. They're drenched in misery and pain and agony and the viewer, nor the characters in the works, expect anything else from their surroundings. They don't start well, nor do they end well.

The trouble starts when you try to use Dark/Edgy as a plot device rather then a tone. It often muddles the waters, and creates a jarring experience. Dawn of Justice, for example. There's competing threads in the movie - The darkness of what is a broken world and the miserable pricks who are trying to be heroes, and the hope they try to inject in to show what we'll eventually end up with, and they just don't mesh well together. Can mixing these be done? Yes. Is it much harder to do then just going full on dark? Yes. Did Spider-Man 3 and Dawn of Justice pull it off? I suppose that's a matter of opinion, but I don't think either came anywhere close.

Am I making sense at all? Joyless and lacking whimsy does not make something dark alone. Sin City has plenty of camp and humor in it.

I guess not. Because you made a thread asking whats wrong with dark and edgy, and why people don't like it, then provide one example that everyone loves and shoot down anything that anyone else suggest as dark and edgy.

So there's your answer. No one hates dark and edgy, they just hate shit movies that you wouldn't use those words to describe.

EDIT: That was snippier then I intended. I apologize.

 

[Casual Shinji]

They're not going out of their way to be assholes, like in GTA5.

You expect Criminals and Psychopaths to NOT be assholes?

I expect them to have a bit more to their character other than just being an asshole or psychopath. That is if the writers want me to become somehow invested in them.

Eh, they're not really going out of their way to do that in GTA5. As in, they do that shit naturally, seeing as they're unstable career criminals and all that. Plus it's so farcical that I laugh more than anything, that's pretty much the antithesis of edgy which begs the audience to take it super seriously.

Unfortunately it's not just the unstable career criminals. Everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE, in the game is an asshole or an obnoxious twat just for the sake of it. Much like the grimdark there's no balance, and the whole experience ends up feeling like a giant, putrid wad of juvenile cynicism.

 

[hermes]

Mostly is a kickback at the 90s attitude, where everything was "Dark and Edgy". Everything. If you were into comics or games, changes were they would change it to make it darker and edgier. It was a natural reaction to the public growing up and feeling ashamed of their childish tastes. There was no escaping it: SEGA introduced Shadow, DC changed Superman to dress in black and wield huge guns with long hair. In some cases, it fits the character and setting (like Watchmen, Sin City and Batman), but many times it doesn't.

And the thing is, it is really easy to take "dark and edgy" and end up with "tacky and juvenile", especially when handled by lesser authors. It became so easy that "tacky and juvenile" became the new standard. It is the same as trying to make "bright and sunny" and end up with "puerile and saccharine", although it is rarer to see in more young adult entertainment. And the same way teenage people can feel ashamed of the "puerile and saccharine" taste he had as a child once they grow up, adults can feel ashamed of the "tacky and juvenile" taste he had as a teenager.

If it is an stylistic choice, it has to be conscious, intentional and relevant to the setting and subject; not just following what is popular. The problem is not with the concept of being "dark and edgy", the problem is with the execution or the times it crossed the line with tacky.

 

[Adamantium93]

Nothing, if used properly. "Dark and Edgy/Gritty" is a perfectly valid aesthetic and many games/movies/plays/etc. use it to great effect. I think The Dark Knight and Dark Souls, for example, wouldn't have had the same kick if they were vibrant and happy. I think Sin City and V for Vendetta, which you mentioned [EDIT: Sorry, someone else mentioned V for Vendetta. Still a good example], are also great examples of how "dark" can be used properly. The problem with Dark and Edgy or Dark and Gritty is that a lot of media uses it in a lazy way. They do it to appeal to the "mature", hardcore, teenage angst, and "X is srs bizness" crowds without actually justifying its use in their media.

This is brought up a lot with superhero movies because most superheroes are not inherently dark/edgy, and you have to do work to make it fit; work that many films simply fail at.

Sin City is Dark and Edgy, but it is also Neo-Noir, which is probably why you don't think of it in the same context as the Nolanverse or the new DC films, but most people lump those series into the Dark-Edgy-Gritty crowd. Most of the time, when people talk about that style, those are the films to which they refer.

Also, wasn't the point of Spiderman 3 to make fun of the Dark-Edgy trend in movies/comics? To show that making Peter dark and a bad boy just made his inherent dorkiness obnoxious rather than endearing? So the black suit just made him an insufferable douche rather than making him "cool" like everyone thought in the 90's?

 

[Dizchu]

What "dark and edgy" is supposed to mean is "it tackles difficult, taboo subjects and doesn't shy away from dark themes".

In practice what it tends to mean is "we desaturated the fuck out of the colours, the protagonist dresses in black, hates everyone and talks in a monotonous growling tone, the female characters are dressed like dominatrices, nobody displays even the most basic compassion for one another and the villain is straight out of a Saturday morning cartoon".

It's the difference between Breaking Bad and Hatred.

 

[sageoftruth]

Nothing, if used properly. "Dark and Edgy/Gritty" is a perfectly valid aesthetic and many games/movies/plays/etc. use it to great effect. I think The Dark Knight and Dark Souls, for example, wouldn't have had the same kick if they were vibrant and happy. I think Sin City and V for Vendetta, which you mentioned [EDIT: Sorry, someone else mentioned V for Vendetta. Still a good example], are also great examples of how "dark" can be used properly. The problem with Dark and Edgy or Dark and Gritty is that a lot of media uses it in a lazy way. They do it to appeal to the "mature", hardcore, teenage angst, and "X is srs bizness" crowds without actually justifying its use in their media.

This is brought up a lot with superhero movies because most superheroes are not inherently dark/edgy, and you have to do work to make it fit; work that many films simply fail at.

Sin City is Dark and Edgy, but it is also Neo-Noir, which is probably why you don't think of it in the same context as the Nolanverse or the new DC films, but most people lump those series into the Dark-Edgy-Gritty crowd. Most of the time, when people talk about that style, those are the films to which they refer.

Also, wasn't the point of Spiderman 3 to make fun of the Dark-Edgy trend in movies/comics? To show that making Peter dark and a bad boy just made his inherent dorkiness obnoxious rather than endearing? So the black suit just made him an insufferable douche rather than making him "cool" like everyone thought in the 90's?

Well a scale of quality is important here, like anything. There is good dark-and-edgy and bad dark-and-edgy.


Good dark-and-edgy is stylish, gritty, engaging, confronting and intoxicating while still being at least a little self aware. Think Fight Club, Taxi Driver or Reservoir Dogs.

But badly written, badly made dark-and-edgy is often juvenile and pretentious. It shows an immaturity in taste and creative sensibilities, and often a lack of self awareness. Not saying you can't enjoy it for being silly and fun, but it's probably not going to have much substance or depth when taken seriously. (not elitist at all, honest)

This here though, this is real high-class sophisticated darkness.

Yech! Amazing what you can find on that site. So, you wouldn't happen to be the Kevin he spoke of would you?

 

[irish286]

What is wrong with dark and edgy? Things suck right now. That's whats wrong. There's little to no work, we're close to getting either a criminal or a blowhard for a president, and psychotics from both sides seem to be taking control of everything... We need to laugh and have the good guys win for a while...

 

[Ambient_Malice]

Spec Ops: The Line is dark.

I'd call it an edgy and tryhard game with themes far better explored by David Goyer's Call of Duty games, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Something Amyss]

It's not about individual properties but about trends. "Dark" and "edgy" have been industry buzzwords for a couple of decades now, and they're derided as an overall concept because they deserve to be. In fact, anything that's legitimately either one would be best advised to avoid the words. Not because it can't be done, but because hat well has been so thoroughly poisoned and people rightly balk at it.

Also, "dark and edgy" often means "this used to be fun, but it doesn't sell to angsty teens anymore, so we're going to suck the fun out of it."

This concept is so old it was parodied by Daria.

 

[False Nobility]

I thought this image would never haunt me ever again.

Anyway, there's a lot of pretentious stuff trying to look edgy in it's trailers just for the sake of marketing, and then when you actually play/watch/read the actual product, it just comes up short. Like it's hollow, dark for the sake of attracting teenagers who want to look cool.