What role should player skill have in RPG combat?

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fnartilter

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I enjoy both, and think that they both have a place in the RPG genre. It's true though that we're seeing fewer D&D/GURPs/(other dice and number systems I'm not familiar with) games, at least in the mainstream.

Only played the demo of Kingdoms of Amalur, and it was frikkin' easy - though to be fair I'd read somewhere that the demo wasn't the final build, and it didn't have the other difficulties enabled iirc. There wasn't any twitch action required, closer to button mashing like Torchlight and Diablo.

I wouldn't put Dynasty Warriors in the RPG department. It's more of a historical fiction action / strategy game.
 

SageRuffin

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Dec 19, 2009
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Nyaoku said:
I don't mean to offend you but personally, I consider those to be RPG games as well. Mario Party's a mix of a lot of stuff though. Not really sure what to call it.
Not sure where you got the idea that I was offended, but whatever.
 

disappointed

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You can't have an RPG without stats. The whole point of playing a role is that different characters are good at different things. If any character can be a mighty warrior by virtue of having a skilled player it breaks the game.

On a tangent, I get fed up with long fights. How many times can someone be hit with a sword before they can't stand up any more? Seeing people in Skyrim running around with half a dozen arrows stuck through them is funny or, to put it another way, laughable. Combat skill, whatever form it may take, should be all about being the first to get in a decisive blow. It shouldn't be about nibbling your opponent to death.
 

GrandmaFunk

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Brawndo said:
I do like some amount of timing and precision, like you see in Mount and Blade. However, ultimately that game punishes the player who is slower and not as good at twitch gameplay, because player skill trumps stats most of the time.
While that's very true in multi-player, which it should be, in single player I don't feel that it's that simple.

it's always a combination of both, player skill(aim+timing+position) plays a big role in determining if your hit connects, whereas stats play a bigger role in determining the effects of that hit.
 

Nalgas D. Lemur

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Nyaoku said:
SageRuffin said:
Nyaoku said:
It's an rpg. A role-playing game. That means you are suppost to take turns. That means that reflexes should be out of the picture.
Excuse me, but... what?

A role-playing game is just that: playing a role. Thus, at its core, combat has little if any correlation with the core element (playing a role). By your definition, anything that has you take turns - from checkers to poker to even Mario Party - means that it's an RPG.

Anyone else reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. I can't wait to see this...
I don't mean to offend you but personally, I consider those to be RPG games as well. Mario Party's a mix of a lot of stuff though. Not really sure what to call it.
Those aren't RPGs. Checkers is a board game. Mario Party is basically the digital evolution of board games and the creator of the party game genre. What you seem to like or be talking about is turn-based games, which is a much broader section of games, so much so that it's not even a genre but more of a gameplay descriptor. Some RPGs are turn-based games. For a long time, most or nearly all of them fell into that category, but as computing power has increased over the years and more things can be calculated and displayed in real time, different variations on real time, turn-based, and hybrids of the two have been explored for many different genres.

You could try to argue that it's a matter of opinion, because the borders of what is and isn't an RPG are somewhat fuzzy, but you've gone so far that it's like arguing that RPGs should be considered a vegetable, or the color blue is an RPG. At that point it stops being a reasonable difference of opinion and is just silly. Heh.
 

Neonsilver

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I like it if there is a good combination of player skill and stats. This way it's possible for a good player to defeat strong enemys using his skill, but if he can't defeat the enemy he just hast to level up a little bit to increase his chances.

If it's done right a player can get a good challenge, while it's still accessible to new players or less skilled players.

Of course a game that relies only on skill or stats is good to.
 

Something Amyss

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Nyaoku said:
It's an rpg. A role-playing game. That means you are suppost to take turns.
No, it means you are supposed to play a role. Taking turns has nothing to do with whether or not something is a roleplaying game.
 

Xanadu84

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Should movies be funny or sad? Should food be sweet or savory? Should stories be short or long? To answer your question, skill should have ever imaginable role. Just in different games.
 

BloatedGuppy

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I actually prefer games that allow for a wider interpretation of the word "skill" then "twitch".

You can be the fastest guy in the world in Starcraft, but if you can't think the game strategically and tactically you're not going to accomplish much. I like the occasional twitch game. I also like games that let me think my way to victory. The dreaded "spreadsheet games" also require skill, the ability to process and interpret information. Even if all you're doing is crunching numbers, you're demonstrating skill at math.
 

Fishyash

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Dec 27, 2010
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Player skill should be in strategy, rather than reflexes and execution/muscle memory skills in an RPG.

Someone earlier in the thread referred it to chess. I think that is what RPGs should aim for, because it makes a challenging game while involving statistics to bring in character progression and uniqueness.

Each chess piece has different stats (I know, it's a bit of a stretch but bear with me) and you need to account for the role they play on the board and plan your moves carefully with that in mind.

Action based gameplay seems to go the opposite direction of what one of the main factors of RPGs were. Statistics. Until participating a sword fight in a video game becomes a real thing, the experience/level progression is a very easy way to emulate a development of your skill with the sword.
 

Joccaren

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Mar 29, 2011
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Skill in RPG combat?
None. None at all.
Action RPG combat, sure, but RPG combat no. RPG combat is about tactics and stats, and your skill means squat as your character is not necessarily you.
 

thehorror2

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I don't think it's unreasonable to have as part of the game's settings a sort of slider that affects how much or how little the player's skill affects the combat experience. For some games (pure die-rolling simulators like Bioware's pre Mass Effect products) this would be unfeasible, but for others I could definitely see something like this. A sliding scale or simply different settings between Morrowind's system (hit button to attack, game rolls invisible dice to see if you hit) and Skyrim's (hit button to attack, game checks if you're in range, deals damage based on enemy block skill and item vs your weapon skill and item no matter what as long as your attack animation intersects with the target's hitbox)

Barring such a system, I don't think there can be a paradigm for RPGs as a whole. I love Mass Effect and Dragon Age equally, but I know that neither game would feel right with the other's level of player skill interaction.
 

Something Amyss

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Joccaren said:
Skill in RPG combat?
None. None at all.
Action RPG combat, sure, but RPG combat no. RPG combat is about tactics and stats, and your skill means squat as your character is not necessarily you.
Considering he's asking about this with titles such as KoA, TES Morrowind, and Mount and Blade, pretty sure he's talking blanket banner.
 

The Abhorrent

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Exactly what sort of skills RPGs should require from the player is a difficult question to answer (one of the reasons the definition of the genre has become nebulous as of late), though the general premise does lean towards the ability to think on your feet and work towards some sort of long-term strategy. Essentially, not so much about agile fingers as it is about having an agile mind.

The unfortunate problem is that many games opted to go with more stat-based approaches to facilitate this for the longest time, leading to the idea that more stats will solve everything; in other words, making grinding a little too useful. This can also lead to stat-inflation issues, which can utterly decimate any challenge an RPG had if the player over-levels. Only in recent years have they started to work towards something a little bit better. However, the next issue is that sometimes they stray a bit too close towards action-oriented games; leading to decent (if not great) action games with strong RPG flavours and good storytelling, which has led to some alienation toward players who were looking for a more intellectual approach.

Over-correcting is a pretty common error when you think about it, and the tendency for players to over-exaggerate their responses to a game isn't exactly helping the developpers get the feedback they need.

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Based on what I've played, some games have struck a fairly good balance:

Dark Souls
Much of the gameplay in Dark Souls is taken from action games; but the slower pace of the combat, the need for constant resource management, and unforgiving treatment for any errors made by the player demand that he or she always be thinking about the fight. There's also a heavy emphasis on learning how to read the enemy's attacks, looking for little tells which will warn you about which attack is coming. Watching the game without any context gives one the impression that it's a fairly simple and slow-paced action game; but all that isn't seen, all the thinking which goes into the player's actions, is what makes it an RPG.

Final Fantasy XIII
This one might seem a little left-field, but the combat in FFXIII is a curious anomaly. Auto-battle, especially early on, seems to disconnect the player from the party's actions; however, it becomes increasingly fast-paced as the game progresses and the player is then forced to focus on higher-level strategies (making the auto-battle function a necessity). The system still takes far too long to fully open up (which is another issue entirely), but presents a surprisingly amount of depth once you finally get there. The other interesting thing about the combat is the stagger meter, which quickly becomes critical to success in combat; it's more or less required to be filled or else battles will take forever, effectively making balanced setups surprisingly undesirable for once. The player is constantly forced to choose between defensive paradigms to survive and offensive ones to fill the stagger meter (so you can deal any worthwhile damage); stats certainly help, but your strategems will play a far bigger role in how battles will go.

Both of these games incorporate stats (which is either the defining or most unnecessary element of the RPG genre), but at the same time find ways to downplay their effect for the benefit of the gameplay as a whole. Even better, they also place a stronger emphasis on strategy instead of just fast reaction-times (though you still can't be too sluggish).

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On the whole , there should be some sort skill involved in playing RPGs. However, it should be moreso oriented towards fast-thinking instead of fast-fingers. And before anyone jumps on this mistake:

That does not automatically mean more complexity!

Really, any idiot can make something more complicated than it has to be (which is why many stat-oriented approaches often scale out of control); more often than not, the right answer is the simple one. The skills an RPG should require is for the player to quickly analyze the situation, and then act (not react) decisively; they're working towards a longer term objective and seeing it through to the end. This offers plenty of ways to throw the players curve-balls and even atypical objectives, creating plenty of depth in the game.
 

SebbyGVS

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Even though MOBA's (DOTA, LoL, HoN) aren't really RPG's, they have a fantastic combination of skill and well thought out strategy. If you've never tried one you really should, however there's a lot to learn and a community that aren't so forgiving to new players.
 

TheSteeleStrap

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I think player skill should matter heavily in RPG combat. If it's reduced to a numbers game, then it takes all the fun and skill out of it.
 

spartandude

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I like it when all your abilities effectiveness is determined by your stats, but as the player you have to chose how and when to use those abilities
 

2733

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let me put it this way, I dislike it when combat devolves to "attack till enemy is dead" it doesn't matter if you select attack from a menu or press x. Some level of skill and tactics is needed in all games.
 

thejackyl

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Apr 16, 2008
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A mix of both really. Honestly I like having a bit of challenge and control in combat, not just: Equip these items to reduce damage and hammer away until it dies, heal when necessary.

I think a good mix would have been: Tales of Symphonia if you played anyone but Lloyd. If you aren't good at the gameplay, get the gear, if you are, combo the hell out of the opponents. Though I'm fairly certain that after a while the AI ends up winning battles for you more than anything else.

Basically combat from Demon's Souls/Dark souls, but stats from any other RPG. (See: Noticeable increases in defense and damage, not just speed and poison/disease resistance)