what the heck did they do to Raven's costume (and Raven in general) in the new DC 52?

[Gerardo Vazquez]

Look at the plot synopses. Look how different it is from the cartoon.

Ultratwinkie, forgive me if this sounds curt, but I've said this a couple of times now and you don't seem to get the point, so:

I know the cartoon's story differs from the comics'. I have said that, and you have said that. You are repeating something I already know. It is not the question I'm asking. I am asking why you keep bringing it up. The cartoon and the comics were not trying to tell the same stories, any more than Stephen King and Robert Browning were trying to tell the same stories, even though the latter inspired the former immensely. So I will ask you again: are you saying the cartoon is obligated to be a literal transcription of the comics?

And who is whining about ruining continuity? Look at the thread!

That is not about continuity. It is about comparison. There is a Raven now that no one likes compared to the previous versions they're aware of (and I like to think they wouldn't like her even without a point of comparison, but never mind).

Deathstroke has no reason to be there.

Deathstroke isn't there. Slade is there. A guy who may or may not have one eye and who has zero explicitly listed powers I am aware of is there. They are not the same character.

Let's face it, people got fed a watered down kiddy version of a much more complex story and took that story as the real version.

First of all, bullshit. Consumption is an entirely voluntary process. No one was forced to watch the show, so you don't get to phrase it like DC crammed it down anyone's throat. All anyone had to do was change the channel to not see it.

Second, there is no real story. It's all imaginary. One is based on the other, but they are not the same damned things.

Third, please don't think I haven't noticed that I asked you for proof of the claims you've made about who was thinking what at which times and you refused to provide any, instead just repeating the same stuff over and over.

The cartoon is only obligated to make at least a half effort into keeping the basic lore mostly intact if its drawing from the comics. DCAU raised the bar for that. Censors have stuck their noses into every decision ever, but only the Teen Titans let it get that far. In fact, it was said they didn't even know if Brother Blood would get the green light just like Deathstroke. A lot of the Teen Titan wiki makes reference to censorship.

The story they had to draw inspiration from won awards. If they had to cut out the super majority to get it onto TV, then they might as well not bother. All of the award winning arcs and events either didn't happen or got nerfed down to the point of irrelevance.

And that's the issue. There is no motivation for anything. Just generic labels for meaningless and interchangeable villains.

There is nothing in Death Stroke's arc that says "that's deathstroke."

There is nothing in Brother Blood's arc that says "that's brother blood."

Even the DCAU managed to keep some semblance of that. DCAU managed to keep motivations and some semblance of identity even if it was tenous. In teen Titans, they are interchangeable because their motivations were so generic.

Replace deathstroke with Gizmo. Or Dr. Light. Or cheetah. Or even the Joker. All of them work. The character that plays the antagonist is interchangeable and therefore worthless.

Deathstroke had a reason, because they killed his son and destroyed his life. No other villain can claim that. If someone made a kids show about Star Wars and Called Darth Vader "Anikin," didn't change his costume, and wasn't related to Luke nor was in a relationship to Padme than he is a generic villain only there because he is iconic. Then turn back around and said he wasn't the same as Darth vader and was totally an Ok thing to do.

Just like 300 heroes wasn't a rip off of multiple IPs because they changed the name. Its obvious.

And there is a real story. Just like there is a canon star wars. Raven was not some hero defying her dad. Her dad lied to her about letting her rule earth so she had to screw daddy over first so she could live.

There is a reason the JLA rejected her, because they knew she was in it for herself. And she had a reason for wanting to wage war against them. She was in it for herself and manipulated a team of idiots into doing what she wanted. That was the original, complex Raven. From this point of reference, the Teen Titan cartoon is watered down, naive, and simplistic.

Raven wasn't a likeable character because she wasn't meant to be. No kid would watch a morally gray storyline, so they dumbed it down to the point they shouldn't have even bothered.

If you had to dumb down everything, its a meaningless story with meaningless characters.

I think that these points are all moot, considering that the Teen Titans cartoon, DCAU, MCU, and so on are infinity more popular than anything any comic company pushes out, on top of just being damn good shows in their own right. Once again the point is "DC Comics can't do math.". I myself have been a fan of Spider-man my entire life, more than I've been a fan of anything, but I've always limited my consumption of Spider-man media into anything but comic books. I got introduced to the character via his famous 90's television series, my interest peaked with the release of Sam Raimi's Hollywood movie, and I consumed the character through subsequent television releases (The Spectacular Spider-man remains one of my favorite cartoons of all time), video games (I've had a space on my self for Spider-man 2 for the Original X-box long after I stopped owning an original X-box), films, I've even got original novels, and while I have a n in depth familiarity with Spider-man's comic book history due to owning a definitive guide since childhood, it's only been about a year since I started reading Spider-man comics, and comics in general, and even now the entire affair is pretty shaky since the only comics I ever pick up are Spider-man, and Mark Waid's new Daredevil. I know that there's tons of people out there just like me, who enjoy the characters and concepts, but can't get into the source material for one reason or another. If Marvel comics wants to be as successful as Marvel Studios they need to find a way to reach out to this demographic or continue with their meager earnings.

 

[JimB]

Just because you call him by a different name does not mean he's a different person.

There are two problems with that, Ultratwinkie. The first is that the characters don't just have different names; they have different costumes, abilities, motivations, stories, writers, and media of transmission for all those characteristics. The second is they aren't people; they're fictional characters.

You can insist all you want that Deathstroke is in the cartoon, but that is verifiably incorrect. The person you are talking about is Slade (and not even Slade Wilson, but just Slade), a character based on but not the same as or dependent on Deathstroke the Terminator.

 

[JimB]

Oh right because superheroes never change costume? They do it all the time.

And if Slade and Deathstroke were the same person, that would be relevant. Don't put the cart before the horse.

Powers? He is an expert fighter. Same.

In the comics, Deathstroke has some bullshitty "uses all one hundred percent of his brain, so he can predict what everyone's going to do" power. He also at least occasionally has some kind of healing factor. Slade never demonstrated either of those abilities. As for both of them being "expert fighters," that rings just a little fucking hollow coming from the mouth of someone who claimed Deathstroke should be able to beat up Superman but complains about Slade being beaten by five teenagers.

They didn't give him a motivation.

So wait, you're agreeing with me that the two characters have different motivations, but you think that somehow proves they're the same character? Which fucking one of us is doing gymnastics?

If you turned Shrek purple and slapped him into your own show, it doesn't make it any less of a rip off. That's the line of logic only copyright infringers use.

Did...did you just say DC infringed on the copyright it fucking owns?

Jesus Christ, dude.

 

[JimB]

You are the one saying they aren't the same.

Except for you, when you complain about motivations and differences in the characters, but hey.

I was telling you that your own logic is the same one used by the Chinese to color swap famous characters and say they aren't the same thing.

I am telling you that by your logic, the Joker is a twist in the fabric of reality because he's alive in the comics but has been in the Tim Burton movie, and we are required to treat these different properties as being the same things.

Lack of motivation is not a motivation by itself.

I never said it is. What the fuck are you talking about?

Deathstroke's ability was genetic manipulation that allows him to react faster than a normal human mind. He is fast, but not faster than someone like the Flash.

Slade does not exhibit that power, either.

By that same logic, all fanfiction is now immaculate.

I don't know what you think "immaculate" means in this context. I also think you are strawmanning me very badly if you think I am arguing that an unlicensed work created by fans with no right to the material they're using exists on the same level as an official, alternate continuity product created by the property's owners.

 

[JimB]

Not an original work. They can't claim responsibility.

Who said they did? Also, who are "they?"

They didn't put in 99% of the story. Even the important parts.

Yeah, almost like it's a different goddamned story only inspired by the original and not the same as it.

The cartoon story is shit because it explains nothing.

What explanation is required?

Slade is Deathstroke, it's obvious. The fact he looks different means nothing.

Looks different, acts different, has different abilities, calls himself by a different name, but otherwise is totally the same guy. Sort of like how the Cesar Romero Joker is totally the same guy as the Heath Ledger Joker.

His abilities are passive. Not active. Which means you can't see it like laser eyes.

So wait, you're saying I have to assume Slade has Deathstroke's abilities despite the cartoon never fucking saying so as proof of Slade being Deathstroke? That only makes sense if you've already proved Slade is Deathstroke. Cart before the horse.

Slade was censored. To the point of being useless narratively and canonically.

Only in the narrative and canon you're obsessed with, not the one the cartoon built.

His motivations don't exist at all. That is not the same as different.

His motivation is megalomania. It's stupid and trite, but fuck, it's a children's show.

Just because you say its different doesn't make it good or rebuff any criticism.

I have never once addressed whether you think the comic is good. I do not give two tugs of a dead dog's dick whether you think it's good. Like it or dislike it all you want. I have only ever talked about your baffling insistence that a comic is a cartoon.

I used fanfiction as an example because if different writers was an excuse, then any writer cant be criticized ever.

Canon is determined by the owner of whatever property you're talking about. Fanfiction by definition cannot be canon. DC has decided the canon of the comics line is a separate entity from the canon of the cartoons. You do not have any standing to insist otherwise. You can dislike the cartoon, but you are arguing against reality if you insist A is B.

 

[Gerardo Vazquez]

The original comic book was popular back when it was published. It lasted from the 1980s to 1996.

The 80s was a very good time for DC, it was their golden age.

The shows are only good if you didn't know the lore. If you knew the lore you'd know that most of what they had was censored to the point it was agreeable to everyone.

and that makes bad comics, because TV shows thrive when there is no change or plot progress at all. Comics thrive on plot progress and can only stall for so long. You'd also have to condense arcs in 30 minutes, and if you can't do that it gets ridiculous like the 60s batman where 2 episodes meant 1 story.

Its like saying "the beatles are worse than Nicki Minaj because that toddler over there doesn't know they exist."

Or alternatively that any good FPS game doesn't matter if it isn't COD.

Or an RPG can't be good or matter because its not skyrim.

Well now I'm not entirely sure where to go with this. On one hand I can see where you're coming from, and sympathize. If people who grew up watching.... say Ultimate Spider-man started getting into the comics, and demanded that the original product changed to fit with their nostalgia then I might also react with hostility. On the other hand, nostalgia glasses aside I still stand for the quality of Teen Titans as a show, and can't help but be put off with your attitude, which reaks of snobbish elitism "What? Money? Why would DC want to make millions of dollars by appealing to the fans base of successful television shows. They would rather cut their own arms off then allow childish fans of that pathetic treacle infest the waters of OUR unmatched epic! May the man-children go back to their light boxes, and revel in their shallow text as we enjoy true literature."

 

[Baralak]

I have no idea who that is or what they did to her. Looks like any other superhero to me.

I just want to say that I actually kinda like the mask/helmet. Looks pretty cool to me.

Yeah, I think it's a pretty badass costume, myself. I need to read more New 52...

 

[rbstewart7263]

Alright so im going to tackle some of these criticisms point by point here.


"The idea that dc is losing out because they are not staying true to the cartoon which itself is not true to the comics."

Not true. while its debatable on whether this costume will do anything for the readers it wont fail because it didnt cop to the tv shows standards. Tv people by and large make poor comic book customers. Walking dead customers are testament to this.

Also does anyone have any hard data that dc has been losing instead of gaining in comic sales post 52? Or are we just throwing around that there losing money to better support a belief and or personal taste? plenty of things that dont sell are neither bad or wrong so ya know.lol


"The idea the comic will fail because it doesnt appeal to your sense of taste."

This one is kind of obvious but yeah just cause its not your cup of tea doesnt mean it isnt someone elses. lord knows plenty of things carry on inspite of my not liking them.

This is too revealing/sexist pandering."

Well technically shes covered so I guess shes not too revealing. I dont think its sexist at least not intentionally or unintentionally. Ive never understood the idea of applying "realistic" standards to characters that can fly and take nukes to the face. If I could take a nuke to the face I wouldnt wear a bunch of padding or whatever. I will say for sure that its definitely not to my taste as a look though and not because shes not sexy. she is far from relatable to me.

 

[JimB]

They cut the story into bits.

Who are "they?"

Why does everyone trust Raven, and even Starfire right off the bat?

They didn't. During the origin episode there at the end of the story, Starfire was an antagonist until she learned to speak English. As for distrusting Raven, why should they have? How would they have known she's the daughter of a demon unless she told them?

Why is Slade around?

To take over the city.

Basically any thing involving Red X, the apprentice episodes, or Terra. No explanation to do anything.

I do not understand what you are talking about. Please cite specific examples.

In "How Long Is Forever," it doesn't explain how Trigon didn't take over without the Titans.

I think you are looking for and inventing problems if you think a future that didn't happen should explain an entirely different future that didn't happen. In any event, we can assume that the Titans remained together for long enough to defeat Trigon.

Why didn't they go to the JLA for help? Trigon is way too much for a small band of kids.

Three things:

1.) I think we can infer from the fact that the JLA just let the world get turned into Bowser's Castle that the JLA either don't exist or couldn't stop the problem.
2.) The title of the show is Teen Titans, not Five Kids Who Go Get the JLA to Solve the Plot.
3.) Trigon is not way too much for a group of kids. They beat him.

Why is Azarath glossed over, when its a major location of Raven?

Because it is not a major location "of Raven," whatever that means. She does not visit it, doesn't call home, doesn't write, doesn't Skype.

And why didn't anyone realize its been destroyed?

Yes, CNN really dropped the ball by not reporting on the destruction of a magical dimension it does not have a network affiliate in to report from.

Terra's alliance to anything. Jumping around, and often changes off screen.

Her alliance changed because she through Beast Boy betrayed her. She was angry and wanted revenge on the Titans, and hey, guess who else was angry and wanted revenge on the Titans?

Slade's old mask laced chemicals, in a box in the basement. They grabbed it before, and put it in the box, yet now it was laced with chemicals.

Cyborg said, aloud, that the release was caused by a signal triggering it.

Brother Blood having Cyborg's blueprints. And having an obsession of cloning Cyborg. For no reason.

I'll grant you the blueprints one, but his obsession with Cyborg is explained: it's because Blood cannot control Cyborg. He wants to control him because controlling children is what Brother Blood does, and he doesn't like being balked.

Megalomania? A delusional mental disorder that is marked by feelings of personal omnipotence and grandeur?

Yes.

No reason? No motivation? Slade is a creepy uncle that gets pulled around every so often.

No.

Children's shows are not immune to criticism either.

I never said they are. I said I forgive Slade's paper-thin motivation because who the fuck cares why a bad guy is bad? What about his reasons alters, changes, or excuses the outcomes of his evil actions?

He uses Deathstroke's iconic weapon.

A staff is Deathstroke's iconic weapon? I thought that was a cavalry saber.

He showed a level of fighting proficiency much higher than other villains in the show.

And Robin still beat the fuck out of him.

The defense that the cartoon omits details?

That is not a defense. That is me telling you that you are just plain making shit up unless you have evidence from the cartoon to support the things you say. You cannot point at the comic and say, "Well, it was true there, so it must be true in the cartoon as well." That would be like saying since there's an issue of Batman where the Joker beat Robin to death with a crowbar, then that also happened in the Nolan movies off-camera somewhere because Bruce and Alfred never sit down to tea together and say, "Hey, remember the time I didn't have a sidekick and the Joker didn't beat him to death with a crowbar?" "Ho yes, Mawster Brewce, those were good toimes indeed."

 

[Mojo]

Its entirely contained. Every big villain for their own one shot.

Okay, nice. Thanks for the info.
A physical copy is kinda expensive to buy here in Europe. (At least from Amazon and eBay.)
Its pretty cheap on amazon.com, Ill have to see how much shipping is though.
I can always get it in e-book form I guess, although I really prefer physical.
Anyway, thanks for the info again. As someone who is really not that familiar with comic books, the whole new 52 is kinda nice to get into them. I can understand that veterans of the medium are upset about some things though.

 

[Shadowstar38]

In the catoon, they gloss it over in an age where DCAU was still a thing.

The JLA deals with Brainiac, Darkseid, and other apocalyptic forces that make Trigon look quaint. They can handle ONE demon, just like they handled an entire interdimensional alien invasion against millions with technology and powers above their own.

Except for the fact that Wally West shows up in the cartoon as a teen, even though he's an adult by the time he founds the JLA. So even of if the titans are in the same universe as the rest of the DCAU, the league doesn't exist yet.

No need for revenge if they censored that part out.

Revenge for Robin defying him last season.

and as a side note, Starfire basically escaped from a space prison and the titans believed that the aliens were "bad." No questions asked. The titans were working with raven but knew jack shit about her too.

They know jack shit about Beast Boy and Cyborg as well so...

 

[AgDr_ODST]

From an outsider's perspective, I don't understand why DC hates money.

What do the majority of people know Raven as? Her appearance in the TV Shows Teen Titans and the current Teen Titans Go!

Why they would deviate from that look and attitude, ya know the only thing that may cause a casual person such as myself to pick up a comic, is just retarded. It's like how they killed off Artemis even though she was basically the "Morph Of the Xmen" of Young Justice.

All though just reading this myself, I am sounding a lot like "They changed it so it sucks now"... That was the whole point of the reboot right? Change and a fresh history?

Super fucking relevant... (well, mostly relevant)

Spoiler: Large Image

Raven was always my favorite character on the TV show and I have even read some of her Teen Titan comics from back in the day. But what... this is. This is not Raven. While Raven before wasn't devoid of sexualization, this seems to be little more appealing to the pocket-mining demographic.

though I'm a guy I can quite easily relate to the poor girl in the comic you posted....besides Robin I didn't know jack about the other characters in Teen Titans...but I still came to love them all anyway. I've never been one for picking up weekly comics (I prefer bigger volumes that contain 'complete' story arcs) though so I had no idea that they'd bastardized Raven and called her new look a 'redesign'.

 

[JimB]

Azaroth is Raven's home. She calls those monks her family on par with the Titans. her mother is there, and there is where she gets guidance on her powers. It's her home, her actual home where she grew up. She calls its name out every time she casts a spell.

And then she leaves it for at least three solid years to go to Earth. During that time, there is no indication that she makes any attempt to contact Azaroth or anyone from there. She says it's her home and the monks are her family, but she sure doesn't act like it; it's almost like she's made a deliberate effort to cut herself off emotionally from anyone and can only badly imitate real emotional connections, or something.

It sits on the border between their world and Trigon's world. It's a big deal when Azaroth is destroyed.

And who was supposed to tell her it happened? Did it go out on Twitter?

The JLA was explained in the comics.

sigh

The cartoon is not the comic. You cannot apply the ingredients of one to another where those similarities do not exist. What word, image, or plot point ever explicitly mentions or even references the existence of a JLA in the cartoon universe, Ultratwinkie?

And if Trigon was such a joke, a conquerer of countless universes and eater of countless souls, then the story is too.

If you think you can describe someone who successfully conquered the world as being a joke because he was defeated by his daughter, who had powers like his own, then you understand the word "joke" to mean something I do not.

It seems [Deathstroke] wants kids to follow in his footsteps, except he has kids of his own.

Deathstroke does. Slade does not.

God damn it, man.

Red X is a plot hole because it somehow was stolen from Robin when it wasn't a common knowledge thing. Outside the Titans, no one would know who he is.

Except for Slade, who figured out the deception, and anyone Slade cared to tell about it.

The mask itself is another one, because the signal went out the same time Robin touched it. From a dead man before Trigon threw him back in to send Raven a message.

That is supposed to be the indication that Slade is back.

When you mention revenge of Terra, you mean Slade too? Because his son never died. No need for revenge if they censored that part out.

The show's very first episode ends with Slade swearing vengeance against the Titans for stopping Cinderblock. He says it right out loud.

Starfire basically escaped from a space prison and the Titans believed that the aliens were "bad." No questions asked. The Titans were working with Raven but knew jack shit about her too.

So wait, you're complaining why they didn't distrust her for being a demon when they don't know she's a demon?

That's the problem, they should have known each other if they were friends.

Your teenaged years are very different from mine, if your understanding of teenaged friendship is based on knowing one another rather than mutual interests and mutual needs.

Taking over the city is stupid. You'd have to deal with shit loads of heroes to take it back.

Slade did take over the city for some unspecified length of time. He had Sladebots roaming the streets in battalion formations and everything. No heroes tried to take it back.

You are making shit up.