What Would The Industry Be Like If There Was No Used Games?

[Lord_Jaroh]

I'm genuinely curious. If there were no used games as an option (or piracy for that matter), where do you think this industry would be right now? Would it be better or worse? More content or less? Cheaper or more expensive? More originality or more sequels?

I'll answer later, as I genuinely want to see people's opinions on the subject without throwing mine in their face first.

 

[Crash486]

This is not the real question, you should be asking where would we be without "Brick and Mortar" stores like Gamestop. The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to. Digital distribution while Gamestop is still around will always be shitty, because MS, Sony, Nintendo aren't going to undercut them, and therefore you'll always be paying full price for without all the benefits of getting a physical copy.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

I would say the industry would be much smaller because people don't HAVE to buy games, they are not a necessity and considering publishers base off week one sales you would have little to no preorders so far fewer week one sales. Also those who are to poor to buy new games would buy less or none at all meaning that console sales over all would drop. This means that those who buy new for full price with the intention of quickly turning over those games to buy the next one would buy less because they couldn't turn them over and so over all there would be less money in the industry

And that ignores the social aspects, all the history which would be lost when a company closed up or simply stopped making the game or console.

 

[Crash486]

I would say the industry would be much smaller because people don't HAVE to buy games, they are not a necessity and considering publishers base off week one sales you would have little to no preorders so far fewer week one sales. Also those who are to poor to buy new games would buy less or none at all meaning that console sales over all would drop. This means that those who buy new for full price with the intention of quickly turning over those games to buy the next one would buy less because they couldn't turn them over and so over all there would be less money in the industry

And that ignores the social aspects, all the history which would be lost when a company closed up or simply stopped making the game or console.

Lack of used games haven't hurt PC game sales at all. In fact, you might even say they've improved them because the price of retail games has gone down significantly, not to mention there are spontaneous "cut price sales" on nearly every digital game distribution site which drop game prices by upwards of 75%. It's a different culture than console gaming is, console gaming is still relatively behind the curve. Trust me when I say the gaming world would be a better place without gamestop and used game sales.

 

[Chemical123]

I would say the industry would be much smaller because people don't HAVE to buy games, they are not a necessity and considering publishers base off week one sales you would have little to no preorders so far fewer week one sales. Also those who are to poor to buy new games would buy less or none at all meaning that console sales over all would drop. This means that those who buy new for full price with the intention of quickly turning over those games to buy the next one would buy less because they couldn't turn them over and so over all there would be less money in the industry

And that ignores the social aspects, all the history which would be lost when a company closed up or simply stopped making the game or console.

Lack of used games haven't hurt PC game sales at all. In fact, you might even say they've improved them because the price of retail games has gone down significantly, not to mention there are spontaneous "cut price sales" on nearly every digital game distribution site which drop game prices by upwards of 75%. It's a different culture than console gaming is, console gaming is still relatively behind the curve. Trust me when I say the gaming world would be a better place without gamestop and used game sales.

"Trust me" is a fairly bad argument, what is your data?

Here is a fun fact, I live in a tiny country in Middle East, very close to Russia. Piracy is rampant over here since nobody legitimate bothers with such a tiny market, it is not just widespread but it is socially acceptable. Do you know the result? I get all games from Steam for 50% off day 1. Games that cost 50 USD, cost 25, and 60 USD are sold for 30, DLC gets "only" a 40% discount. And on top of that all of the sales that steam has apply to already discounted prices.

Did steam lower prices because of the kindness and spirit of charity? Maybe. However it is far more likely that they lowered their prices because of COMPETITION. Removing piracy, removing used games would drive prices UP since then the consumer would have no other option. At one point there was a crackdown on illegal media in my country and I could only buy games legitimately, and steam was not available yet. Do you know how much I would have to pay then? 150 USD for a year old game. More than double.

Gamestop is a problem, I agree, because they are a monopoly which drove all of the COMPETITION out. That's why they make so much money, not because used games are ruining the industry. Used games HELP the industry by providing various price points to satisfy as many customers as possible and providing an income to subsidize the purchase of games Day 1.

And finally, what about limited runs of games? The only reason I got to enjoy amazing games like Ico, Okami and Shadow of the Colossus was because I could buy them for a reasonable price used. Brand new copies of those games are prohibitively expensive or simply not available.

So no, the industry would not be in a better shape without used games. Steam is not lowering prices because of lack of used games, they are lowering them because they know they have to stay competitive, remove piracy and GoG, Origin, Greenmangaming and other digital stores and you will get maybe 1-2 sales a year from Steam.

 

[UnnDunn]

I'm genuinely curious. If there were no used games as an option (or piracy for that matter), where do you think this industry would be right now? Would it be better or worse? More content or less? Cheaper or more expensive? More originality or more sequels?

I'll answer later, as I genuinely want to see people's opinions on the subject without throwing mine in their face first.

Well, we already have examples to look at, namely the PC and Mobile game marketplaces. In both PC and Mobile, we see far more originality, fewer sequels and cheaper prices compared to console. Of course, that isn't entirely due to the lack of secondary sales, but I think it's a big factor.

 

[Anthony Corrigan]

I would say the industry would be much smaller because people don't HAVE to buy games, they are not a necessity and considering publishers base off week one sales you would have little to no preorders so far fewer week one sales. Also those who are to poor to buy new games would buy less or none at all meaning that console sales over all would drop. This means that those who buy new for full price with the intention of quickly turning over those games to buy the next one would buy less because they couldn't turn them over and so over all there would be less money in the industry

And that ignores the social aspects, all the history which would be lost when a company closed up or simply stopped making the game or console.

Lack of used games haven't hurt PC game sales at all. In fact, you might even say they've improved them because the price of retail games has gone down significantly, not to mention there are spontaneous "cut price sales" on nearly every digital game distribution site which drop game prices by upwards of 75%. It's a different culture than console gaming is, console gaming is still relatively behind the curve. Trust me when I say the gaming world would be a better place without gamestop and used game sales.

"Trust me" is a fairly bad argument, what is your data?

Here is a fun fact, I live in a tiny country in Middle East, very close to Russia. Piracy is rampant over here since nobody legitimate bothers with such a tiny market, it is not just widespread but it is socially acceptable. Do you know the result? I get all games from Steam for 50% off day 1. Games that cost 50 USD, cost 25, and 60 USD are sold for 30, DLC gets "only" a 40% discount. And on top of that all of the sales that steam has apply to already discounted prices.

Did steam lower prices because of the kindness and spirit of charity? Maybe. However it is far more likely that they lowered their prices because of COMPETITION. Removing piracy, removing used games would drive prices UP since then the consumer would have no other option. At one point there was a crackdown on illegal media in my country and I could only buy games legitimately, and steam was not available yet. Do you know how much I would have to pay then? 150 USD for a year old game. More than double.

Gamestop is a problem, I agree, because they are a monopoly which drove all of the COMPETITION out. That's why they make so much money, not because used games are ruining the industry. Used games HELP the industry by providing various price points to satisfy as many customers as possible and providing an income to subsidize the purchase of games Day 1.

And finally, what about limited runs of games? The only reason I got to enjoy amazing games like Ico, Okami and Shadow of the Colossus was because I could buy them for a reasonable price used. Brand new copies of those games are prohibitively expensive or simply not available.

So no, the industry would not be in a better shape without used games. Steam is not lowering prices because of lack of used games, they are lowering them because they know they have to stay competitive, remove piracy and GoG, Origin, Greenmangaming and other digital stores and you will get maybe 1-2 sales a year from Steam.

I have the opposite issue, I live in Australia we pay SIGNIFICANTLY more for games no matter where they come from. Even if I open up origin the fact that I have an Australian address means that I pay up to 75% more. The companies like Microsoft and Apple were summoned to a Senate inquiry to justify WHY they charge so much here and the response was silence but the unspoken answer is "because we can". Now I hope government (either persuasion) actually takes one step which would force down costs and that's to outlaw region locking in Australia, it was done as a backroom deal on DVDs but it needs to be put into the ACL once and for all that it breaches the fundamentals of free trade but still we pay more. You give more power to the companies and they will just charge more "because we can"

 

[Windcaler]

This is not the real question, you should be asking where would we be without "Brick and Mortar" stores like Gamestop. The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to. Digital distribution while Gamestop is still around will always be shitty, because MS, Sony, Nintendo aren't going to undercut them, and therefore you'll always be paying full price for without all the benefits of getting a physical copy.

I will somewhat disagree with that. Digital distribution has a ton of pitfalls that we don't often talk about in PC gaming because theyre just accepted now (and IMO they shouldn't necessarily be). One of the main ones being the long download times for games. I run a standard DSL for my ISP speed and it can still take 6-12 hours to download one of my average sized games from steam or Desura. Consoles have always had the "pick up and play" element as one of their strengths but with the requirement to install games on your hard drive that the xbone had (has?) the pick up and play option is no longer there. Eleminating one of the few really good strengths of consoles and console gaming

The second problem I often have is there are no physical copies and this is something that has always scared the hell out of me since digital distribution became a thing. I cant control what happens on the servers of a company. I can control how well my old copy of morrowind or Descent is taken care of. On top of that many retail PC copies (such as Xcom enemy unknown) still require steam to even work (IMO there should be a law in place that requires one of these retail copies to say "Requires steam"). This forces people to do business with a company that they might not want to do business with. Its not even a case of well don't play Valve games if you don't like steam because show me another digital distribution service where I can get ahold of indie titles such as Megabyte punch (btw go try Megabyte punch if you havnt its a great indie game on the greenlight)or even big games like Skyrim. You cant because steams got them locked in exclusively to their service.

Some other gamers wont buy games that aren't on steam and I get it, its very convienant to have a centralized library where you can find all the games you own but that screws indies that spend months/years trying to go through greenlight, get in the top 3 for votes and still don't get on steam because the man behind the curtain said no without even giving a reason. At least with that one problem they have some competition since Amazon is starting to basicly sell any indie game that works.

Real physical copies remove all of these problems.

The third issue is digital distribution services are the new middle man. For some companies like valve or EA it doesn't matter, they don't pay additional costs to be on their own service. They don't take a cut of their own profits so in their case there is no middle man. That's not the same thing for Bethesda, Zombie, or Paradox. Steam, origin, desura, and even GoG take a cut out of every sale just like the brick and mortor retailers

The fourth issue is the same issue I had with the xbox. Its a question of ownership. Why cant I take my games off steam, or origin, or desura? I own them right? Every file belonging to that game is my property and in any other industry I could do whatever the hell I want to with it but not this one. I seriously want a court ruling here in the US that says these files are my property to do with and modify how I desire but, honestly, there are more important issues going on in our country and its been that way for years.

The fifth issue I have with every DD service except GOG is its glorified DRM. DRM is always a bad thing for consumers but we've bought into it because of those huge sales. If digital distribution services no longer have to compete with retail stores then they'll have all the power in the world to perform every anti-consumer action in the book. What can you do then? Youre already locked in with hundreds/thousands of dollars of merchandise that you can loose in an instant and no way to remove it from their services. The whole thing with steam making it so you could no longer file class action law suits proved that. Just because of that I do as little business with steam as possible but Im already locked in with a couple thousand dollars worth of purchases. I cant leave it and retain the use of my property even though I desperately want to

Now I don't want to come off as "digital distribution is unquestionably bad." Its not. In fact as a service its quite convienant for consumers. However I would be lying to myself and others if I didn't express the pitfalls it has in it. If people accept these pitfalls and think they are worthwhile for what they gain, ok. Its their money and I have no right to tell them how to spend it. However, the same goes for me and my money and my spent money says there are problems with these services. Problems that we don't often address or even consider

On topic. I don't think used games are a problem. I think the want to be pawn shops like gamestop are a problem. However if used games did not exist, I think we would be much worse off. You see the thing is people don't trade in games they really like so there is a pressure from devs to make more unique games that will hold peoples interest (the less used copies on the market the more new ones sell). Without that pressure, well I believe we would see more bland captain monotonous' adventures then we do right now. Think about it, whats really to stop a company from hyping a game up and putting any kind of shovelware on the shelf if you cant sell the thing and get some of your investment back along with them not having to worry about a used copy being sold over a new copy? Right now we get far to many AAA titles like Medal of honor warfighter and Kingdoms of amalur that are functional games and meet the goal of making some money but ultimately don't make anything original or noteworthy and thus harm artistic expression and pursuit. That's bad for the industry and bad for consumers

 

[MysticSlayer]

There would likely be a greater delay in price cuts simply because the developers and publishers would know that they don't have the used games market to compete against. Once there is that matter of competition, then publishers are forced to keep their prices competitive, and a lack of competition would likely keep prices at release prices longer than usual, simply because the point at which publishers get more money for price cuts will be put later in the game's lifespan than what we currently have, as there is no longer another option factoring into people's decision making.

Development costs likely wouldn't change. If anything they'd go up because every sale is now going into the publisher's pockets, giving them more freedom with how large their budgets can be and how "flashy" they can make their game look, not to mention the extra advertising they can invest in. However, if these people are smart, they'd wait until they are at least breaking even again before even trying to raise development costs, and even then they'd want to be turning a profit.

Unfortunately, it is hard to predict how it would effect originality or the number of sequels versus the number of original IPs. On the one hand, there's the possibility it will encourage creativity, as developers and publishers know that they no longer have to worry about lost sales due to used games, and any risk a person takes with a game will be forced on the new copy, not the cheaper used one. On the other hand, the higher prices might make people more weary about risking money on anything new, and it will be better (from a development standpoint) for developers to just continue adding installments to their major franchises while minimizing the number of new IPs. Either way, budgets for original ideas will likely be smaller than established brands due to the increased risk, and this may also cause a continuation of excess sequels. On the brighter side, this may also cause original ideas to sell for less to encourage more buyers, and there is no way for the used game's market to undercut them.

Either way, I just don't trust the people who claim a lack of used games will cause prices to go down, or that digital distribution's takeover will also cause prices to go down. People have obviously accepted the $50-60 price tag, and the price won't change simply because there is less competition. If anything, competition keeps prices down, and I seriously doubt that the gaming industry is any different.

 

[MetalDooley]

This is not the real question, you should be asking where would we be without "Brick and Mortar" stores like Gamestop. The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to. Digital distribution while Gamestop is still around will always be shitty, because MS, Sony, Nintendo aren't going to undercut them, and therefore you'll always be paying full price for without all the benefits of getting a physical copy.

Excapt you're forgetting one vital point.PC is an open platform.The reason Steam,GoG etc. have so many sales is because they have a fair bit of competition and the aim is to entice you to use and keep using their service.Consoles are a closed platform.If XBL/PSN/E-Shop was the only place you could buy Xbox/PS/Nintendo games they would have zero incentive to drop prices because they would have zero competition

 

[Savagezion]

This is not the real question, you should be asking where would we be without "Brick and Mortar" stores like Gamestop. The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to. Digital distribution while Gamestop is still around will always be shitty, because MS, Sony, Nintendo aren't going to undercut them, and therefore you'll always be paying full price for without all the benefits of getting a physical copy.

Except Gamestop does sell PC games along with many brick and mortar stores. Gamestop isnt the reason that PC games are often found at better deals. It is as MetalDooley says, because it is an open platform. It is a "console" that no one owns and any developer can do whatever they want on it thus breeding competition between developers, distributors, and pretty much every venue of merchandising.

 

[Dragonbums]

I would be a very very very very very selective person when it comes to which games I would buy.
In fact, I would even go far as to say if the story isn't top notch, and/or it has no re-playability factor I will just skip it with no regrets.

No sense on spending $60.00 for sub-oar or potentially shitty games.

 

[KOMega]

If the quality of the games are the same as they are now and if you mean there were no used games from the very start up until the present, I'd probably wouldn't be here or maybe I'd be part of the crowd that dismissed games as silly toys (ugh, that is horrifying to imagine).

I wouldn't have moved to PC, because the fascination with the PS1 and PS2 and all the used games I got on those made we want to search for more. Guess where? With the computer! And so I discovered PC gaming and I do plenty of that now too.

Used games is a lower barrier of entry into gaming, which I think I needed back then. And some people probably need now as well.

 

[Baldr]

Just to give you an idea(this list is incomplete): 20+ studios a year.

38 Studios - 2012
3D Realms - 2009
4mm Games - 2012
7 Studios (Activision) - 2011
ACES Studio (Microsoft) - 2009
Action Forms - 2009
Artech Studios - 2011
Ascaron - 2009
Atomic Elbow - 2008
Backbone Vancouver
Beam Software/Melbourne House - 2010
BigBig (Sony) - 2012
Big Huge Games - 2012
Bizarre Creations (Activision) - 2010/2011
Black Hole Entertainment - 2012
Black Rock (Disney) - 2011
Blue Fang Games - 2011
Blue Tongue (THQ) - 2011
BottleRocket - 2009
Brash Entertainment - 2008
Budcat (Activision) - 2010
Carbonated Games - 2008
Castaway Entertainment - 2008
Cavia - 2010
Cheyenne Mountain - 2010
Cing - 2010
Codemasters Guildford - 2011
Cohort Studios - 2011
Concrete Games - 2008
Dark Energy Digital - 2012
Deep Silver Vienna - 2010
EA Bright Light - 2011/2012
Eden Games - 2012
Eidos Manchester - 2009
Eidos Hungary - 2010
Empire Interactive - 2009
Ensemble Studios (Microsoft) - 2008
Étrange Libellules - 2012
Eurocom - 2012
Factor 5 - 2009
FASA (Microsoft) - 2007
Fizz Factor - 2009
Flagship Studios - 2008
Flight Plan - 2010
Frozen North Productions
Funcom Beijing - 2013
FuzzyEyes - 2009
Gaia
Gamelab - 2009
Game Republic - 2011
GRIN - 2009
Groove Games - 2010
Gutso Games
HB Studios Halifax - 2012
Helixe (THQ) - 2008
Hogrocket - 2012
Hudson Entertainment - 2011
Hudson Soft - 2012
Humannature Studio (Nexon Vancouver) - 2009
Ignition London - 2010
Ignition Florida - 2010
ImaginEngine - 2012
Impossible Studios - 2013
Incognito Entertainment (Sony) - 2009
Iron Lore - 2008
Juice Games (THQ) - 2011
Junction Point - 2013
Kaos Studios (THQ) - 2011
Killaware - 2011
Killspace Entertainment - 2011
KMM Brisbane - 2011
Kuju Manila - 2009
Kuju Chemistry - 2009
Kush Games - 2008
Locomotive Games (THQ) - 2010
Loose Cannon Studios - 2010
Luxoflux - 2010
Mass Media (THQ) - 2008
Microsoft Game Studios Vancouver - 2012
Monte Cristo - 2010
Monumental Games - 2012
Midway Austin - 2009
Midway Newcastle - 2009
MTV Games - 2011
Multiverse - 2012
NetDevil - 2011
Ninja Studio - 2009
Outerlight - 2010
Outspark - 2013
PAM Development (Take-Two) - 2008
Pandemic Australia (EA) - 2009
Pandemic LA (EA) - 2009
Paradigm Entertainment - 2008
Pi Studios - 2011
Pivotal Games (Take-Two) - 2008
PopCap Dublin - 2012
Propaganda Games (Disney) - 2011
Pseudo Interactive - 2008
Radical Entertainment - 2012
Rainbow Studios (THQ) - 2011
Razorworks - 2009
Reakktor Media - 2012
Realtime Worlds - 2010
Rebellion Derby - 2010
Red Octane - 2010
Redtribe - 2008
Sandblast Games (THQ) - 2008
SEGA San Francisco - 2010
Sensory Sweep Studios - 2010
Seta - 2008
Shaba Games (Activision) - 2009
Sierra Online - 2008
Snapdragon Games - 2009
SOE Denver - 2011
SOE Seattle - 2011
SOE Tuscon - 2011
Sony Liverpool - 2012
Spellbound Entertainment - 2012
Stormfront Studios - 2008
Straylight Studios - 2009
Team Bondi - 2011
The Code Monkeys - 2011
Titan Studios - 2009
THQ Australia - 2009
THQ Digital Warrington - 2009
THQ San Diego - 2012
Transmission Games/IR Gurus - 2009
Ubisoft Brazil - 2010
Ubisoft Vancouver - 2012
Underground Development/Z-Axis (Activision) - 2010
Universomo (THQ) - 2009
Venom Games (Take Two) - 2008
Vigil Games - 2013
Visceral Australia (EA) - 2011
Wizarbox - 2013
Yuke?s Company Of America - 2010
Zipper Interactive - 2012
Zoe Mode London - 2009
Zoonami - 2011
Zynga Boston - 2012
Zynga Japan - 2013

 

[fix-the-spade]

The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to.

Not true at all, with no competition and no second hand market to deal with, prices of software would sky rocket.

PC games are cheap because they compete with consoles, piracy, older games and free to play. Console games don't, the publisher can hit the off button at will for older games and hardware generations render them moot anyway, but they do have to outsell the other brand and persuade buyers to buy new instead of second hand.

If that was all removed, they had complete control of your access and you had no physical property, they would likely tie your to a subscription, probably at a price similar to cable TV or broadband. If you were really unlucky they'd tie you into a subscription and make you pay extra for the games.

You can look at any product, when there's a monopoly prices go up and consumer rights go down. Sony and Nintendo already tried to fix prices in the nineties, you can bet they would again ifthey could.

 

[Ren_Li]

Hm. I suspect it could go one of two ways.

Either it would become a smaller, more expensive, "elitist" hobby; people on lesser incomes wouldn't be able to afford the higher prices which could be pushed up "because they can".

Alternatively... It would be relatively similar to now, but with lower budgets, and lower purchasing costs. That seems a little too optimistic for my liking though- I'm willing to bet it wouldn't end positively for the average consumer.

Honestly though, it's impossible to say. The industry has developed with used games altering how and when people buy what. It's really impossible to say how the industry would have developed without any one part of what contributed to it's current state- it's possible things would have ended up virtually unrecognisable.

 

[BloodSquirrel]

The argument that used game sales are significantly reducing the profitability of games is weak at best. It relies too heavily on "Every used game sale would have been a new game sale" logic and a failure to account for how much being able to re-sell a game encourages people to buy new in the first place.

I doubt that the elimination of used game sales would change things radically, except perhaps for reducing the amount of Day-1 DLC that we see.

Oh yeah, and it fails to take into account how much retail is subsidizing new game sales via marketing and promotions (pushing those pre-orders), while simultaneous being subsidized themselves by used game sales.

 

[The White Hunter]

This is not the real question, you should be asking where would we be without "Brick and Mortar" stores like Gamestop. The answer is, we'd be using the pc-gaming model. From my perspective, it's a far better one, you give up access to a physical disc but gain convenience of buying instantly from your living room, and far cheaper prices to boot because there's no middle man to cater to. Digital distribution while Gamestop is still around will always be shitty, because MS, Sony, Nintendo aren't going to undercut them, and therefore you'll always be paying full price for without all the benefits of getting a physical copy.

And yet several PC platforms like Origin and Uplay are notorious for fucking atrociously high prices whilst their creators whine about how they have to charge more for games at retail because of the evil retailers.

Honestly the industry needs to move towards a more steam/gog/green man gaming like model.

Particularly Green Man Gaming, which usually offers good discounts on even triple A console titles. Not to mention, at least for games I buy, it undercuts Steam a lot.