What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

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DefunctTheory

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tzimize said:
AccursedTheory said:
erttheking said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
A history of religious prudery, for starters.
That and the fact that, despite all the hustle and bustle, there isn't a freaking audience for it.
This, probably more so then the prudish bit. I remember when the last Dead or Alive shit storm started, and everyone was complaining about 'censorship' and 'stupid western puritanism,' and no one seemed to be able to accept the simple statistical fact that no one was buying the fucking things.

The West's problem with sex is a real thing, to be sure, but it's helpless in the face of pure, unadulterated capitalism. If EA or Activision or one of the Japanese companies could make money in the US with a shameless, big budget titty extravaganza, they sure as shit would. But they can't - Even though sex appeal is a massive part of gaming, they've found that there is a point of over-saturation, where much like the spine of a well endowed woman, the sales of the game sag and breaks if you try to cram too much boob in there.

Dat image. 10/10 post. I salute you sir.
When in doubt, compare it to boobs. Never fails.
 

hermes

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Dr. Crawver said:
Metalix Knightmare said:
I can walk into a hooters for free, buy a beer and leave. Low cost to entry, typically good service rendered.

I can't do that with these games. I think you missed the important part which is the price tag attached. And these games can't sell for less, because the market has already been demonstrated to be tiny.
Yes, they can. They generally don't require NEARLY as much resources in order to make. You don't need to spend a lot of time designing anything beyond characters and environment interactions, voice actors range from optional to no real need for expensive talent, you generally don't need a wide variety of environments, etc, etc.

Heck, you could go even cheaper and just go full Visual Novel. Then you don't even need animation.
Doesn't that goes against the point of the original question, though? He asked why a AAA level company like Rockstar didn't diverted serious resources into making DOAX-style games if they sold well enough. And the answer is that they don't think those games sell well enough to even be worth their effort. They are not interested in putting their names in the cover of any property if it is not worth plastering NY buses with it, and those games are not worthy.

Now, if we are going to reduce the restrictions to something someone with some pixel art skills and RPG Maker or a few tutorials of Game Maker can put together, then there are plenty of those around if you leave the steam marketplace, but nothing good since they are aware its the right level of effort for the profit they plan to get.
 

C14N

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Because nobody really wants it. Out of all the people who wanted to complain about DOAX3 not getting a western release, I'd guess that only a small fraction of them actually went and imported the game or would have bought it anyway. It's not even to do with being prudes. We love watching porn way more depraved than the sort-of PG-13 nudity of DOAX3. Shows like Game of Thrones with regular nudity and sex more graphic than that game are not just popular, but completely mainstream to the point where children's TV shows can reference them. There just isn't that much appeal for a softcore porn with animated women that costs ?/$60 and is inconvenient to jack off to. If I want to jack off (and DOAX doesn't really have that much going for it if you aren't jacking off), I don't want to bother loading up a video game and waiting for it to start and get to the girls and playing around just to see sideboob, I'm just going to watch a video on my phone or computer and get it done quickly.
 

IamLEAM1983

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I'd say cultural differences are to blame.

The West likes to rail on inequalities and more than readily makes fun of its own sociopolitical systems. We like our video game politicians arrogant and corrupt, because it comforts certain confirmation biases we all entertain. The Candidate we Don't Like is an Ass, the Candidate We Like is a Saint.

On the other hand, there's a certain degree of social taboo that we refuse to go past. Consider the modern Leisure Suit Larry games' poor performances, as well as the fact that the "Porno Games" industry is next-to-nonexistent. Everyone knows about General Custer's Revenge and Rapelay, for instance, but there isn't much of anything else available, otherwise. I'd expect some people to mention Huniepop, but even this particular title's inclusion is debatable.

The short of it is that the average Western mind doesn't really consider Boob Physics or titillation to be inherently marketable notion.

Then, consider the fact that if you're enjoying games like DOAX, you're probably in the minority. Anime's grown to be as democratic as could be, but cutesy slice-of-life stuff with titillation or even raw fanservice ? la High School of the Dead aren't as culturally salient as you'd think, outside of enthusiast circles. Ask any rando which anime he likes, and chances are you'll either get a negation or a more mainstream answer. Naruto, for instance.

With that in mind, if the West produced a kinky sports sim, you'd end up with moral outrage on one side, indifference on the other, and a tiny, tiny core of gleeful supporters that would constitute a rather pusillanimous market.
 

Davroth

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Cid Silverwing said:
Because if you want porn, YOU WATCH PORN.

Games are not porn. Or movies.

Stop trying to make games a pornographic media.
Who are you to make that call? And you are way too late on that front. Pornographic video games have almost as long a history as video games themselves.

Also, games and movies are mediums, while pornography is a genre.
 

crypticracer

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Puranitism is a part of it.

But so is capitalism. Corporations want a clean image, but also know that sex sells.

This is why you make a fantasy game with scantily clad women in it, rather than a game about scantiyl clad women with some fantasy in it. It's why you can have a woman wearing naught but a slip of metal on their breasts, but damn you if you show a nipple.

And that's why no american company wants to make a doax. They want to appear to make dragon and wizard games, slipping in some sex on the side, instead of being considered smut peddlers.

They found the line between them long ago, and it's called bikini armor.
 

Einspanner

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Einspanner said:
slo said:
Einspanner said:
The fact that almost no one really enjoys a "DOAX" experience
Citation needed.
Sorry, find another playmate.
You don't make a claim like that and then refuse to back it up dude.
Whatever you say bruh, but I think sometimes it's a "Claim" homie, and sometimes it's an "Opinion" shorty, depending on who said and it when. I've been online long enough to avoid that entire mess.
 

Einspanner

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Callate said:
Einspanner said:
It's not that hard, Leisure Suit Larry managed. You just have to appeal to something that exists in large numbers. A lot of people on this forum seem to confuse their own person (extreme) passion for something, with the general temperature in the room. The fact that almost no one really enjoys a "DOAX" experience isn't down to prudery, it's down to:

Access to real people
Access to more porn than is easily conceived of
A desire that a game isn't boring; why sift through hours of BLEGH just for a virtual tit jiggle?
Teens outside of Japan are generally not losing their minds over panty shots, or virtual titty jiggles. A thousand "bloody nose" jokes gets old in a hurry.

It's just difficult for most people over the age of 15 or with a healthy social life, to enjoy a game that is so puerile. The sex doesn't make it puerile, the puerility makes it hard to enjoy the sex. It's hard to lose the awareness say, when watching an episode of 'Irregular At Magic Highschool', that clearly this is someone's desperate fantasy. Well, my fantasies don't revolve around being an emotionless Gary Stu with an incestuous twist, and if they did, I'd want to see them actually FUCK, not blush about it and stammer.

Or yeah, "The West" is just prudish, that must be it. Or people don't want to engage because of the subject matter. That must be why advertising, television, cinema, and other games are drenched in sex...

I mean really, maybe some of you didn't watch Animal House, or Fast Times at Ridgemont High?... and that was decades ago.
Leisure Suit Larry "managed" in 1987 at a time when most games were created by teams of less than five people. Selling 100,000 copies was a tremendous success. LSL's most recent "modern" installment, Box Office Bust, was almost universally reviled; the re-make of the original, Reloaded, seems to have met with mixed success at best.
Uh huh, thank god it was so clear I didn't mean the recent one. As for the trivia about how it was made, not sure why that matters.

Callate said:
Likewise, the movies you mention came out more than thirty years ago.
Hence my use of the phrase, "Decades ago". Seriously, this is getting old, fast.

Callate said:
Movies, television, and advertising are far less "drenched with sex" now than they were then.
Ridiculous. Go watch a Rihanna video.
 

Redd the Sock

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Saying "there isn't an audience" is only half the answer. It doesn't explain why there isn't an audience. That, to me, comes down to as a culture we're more sex negative than we want to admit. It's a desire to keep sex and sexiness an isolated thing from other entertainment, and generates a culture that pre-judges things as crap if they cross an arbitrary line (and don't have massive hype budgets).

I mean, DOAX has some control issues and could use a story mode, but honestly, isn't it the kind of thing people say we need more of: a game completely focused on non violent activities? And half of the concept is right up there with free to play games in the whole point is to do activities to earn outfits and accessories to dress up a chosen character / avatar. Why dismiss it because swimwear?
 

Secondhand Revenant

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Redd the Sock said:
Saying "there isn't an audience" is only half the answer. It doesn't explain why there isn't an audience. That, to me, comes down to as a culture we're more sex negative than we want to admit. It's a desire to keep sex and sexiness an isolated thing from other entertainment, and generates a culture that pre-judges things as crap if they cross an arbitrary line (and don't have massive hype budgets).

I mean, DOAX has some control issues and could use a story mode, but honestly, isn't it the kind of thing people say we need more of: a game completely focused on non violent activities? And half of the concept is right up there with free to play games in the whole point is to do activities to earn outfits and accessories to dress up a chosen character / avatar. Why dismiss it because swimwear?
So you're implying it requires sex negativity to not want a game that's about titillation over gameplay? Yeah, no
 

Lunar Templar

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Worgen said:
Cid Silverwing said:
Because if you want porn, YOU WATCH PORN.

Games are not porn. Or movies.

Stop trying to make games a pornographic media.
Actually games and porn can go together really well. Take Sakura Dungeon with the patch.
or anything from winged cloud really, course, those girls actually have a certain charm and personality to them, so not really fair to compare them to the glorified 'real dolls' in DoA

Dr. Crawver said:
Lunar Templar said:
hows it feel to be WRONG.
DoAX I
North America: 0.36m 61.1%
+ Europe: 0.08m 13.4%
+ Japan: 0.14m 23.0%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 2.5%
= Global 0.59m

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/482/dead-or-alive-xtreme-beach-volleyball/

DoAX II
North America: 0.15m 57.7%
+ Europe: 0.03m 11.0%
+ Japan: 0.06m 24.9%
+ Rest of the World: 0.02m 6.4%
= Global 0.26m
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/481/dead-or-alive-xtreme-2/

whats that?! the first 2 games didn't even sell 1 million copys world wide, AND North America OUT SOLD JAPAN.

yeah, we're done here.

Sit down, shut up, and stop lieing to people.

They're bad games, bad games don't sell. get over it.
Jesus Lunar, bringing out facts? That's not fair. But damn, that one was satisfying to watch.
whats sad is, I looked up DoAX 3's numbers, and the only solid info on that I could get was on the wiki for it and it was from a report back in April saying that it moved 190K copy's world wide.

so near as I can tell, officially, as a series DoAX has only shipped 1.04 million copy's, world wide.

I donno how much digital might have effected it but I can't imagine it'd be much, ether way, 3 games and only 1 million world wide is just pathetic, but that's what they get for making a crappy game series who's direct competition is actual pornography.

The real lesson here is if your gonna sell a game on the strength of sex appeal, make sure the rest of the game isn't a total pile of shit.
 

Redd the Sock

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Secondhand Revenant said:
Redd the Sock said:
Saying "there isn't an audience" is only half the answer. It doesn't explain why there isn't an audience. That, to me, comes down to as a culture we're more sex negative than we want to admit. It's a desire to keep sex and sexiness an isolated thing from other entertainment, and generates a culture that pre-judges things as crap if they cross an arbitrary line (and don't have massive hype budgets).

I mean, DOAX has some control issues and could use a story mode, but honestly, isn't it the kind of thing people say we need more of: a game completely focused on non violent activities? And half of the concept is right up there with free to play games in the whole point is to do activities to earn outfits and accessories to dress up a chosen character / avatar. Why dismiss it because swimwear?
So you're implying it requires sex negativity to not want a game that's about titillation over gameplay? Yeah, no
No. I'm assuming a mindset that automatically assumes titillation equals crap, without trying the game, or before the game comes out, or even entertaining a possibility that a fanservice game might be good in its own right. Consider it a pervert's parallel to assumptions about female led games and movies. Some will assume shit automatically, and others will come looking for things to pick apart they might otherwise forgive.

We all have our biases, and no one needs to like anything that crosses those, I am saying that if someone finds themselves frequently on the side dismissing a game with top heavy girls, or is always taken out of things when the costumes get too revealing, or are trying to get a video game character to cover up, them might not think of yourself as a sex negative prude, but their actions speak otherwise in vilifying any sexuality not kept private. If you've ewver found yourself wondering why people find such things attractive (and we aren't talking realistic child porn), you're dangerously close to just being a judgemental fuck telling others what it's "right" to be attracted to and jack off to, and that's not sex positive either.
 

Gamerpalooza

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Gordon_4 said:
Actually for Japanese properties there always exists the possibility of erotic doujin and I suspect that Dead or Alive is a rather popular property for such items.
I wouldn't be surprised in that regard but what's important is what's canon and what isn't.

DoAX is canon to the series. This is what Zack did with his earnings.

Asuka Soryu said:
Yeah. Not sure if you know this, but doujin can have stories with character development and world building.

I see that as a lot more appealing then 'some girls from a fighting game were invited to some rich guys third new island, to spend every minute in a bikini, doing nothing but volley ball and little mini games, as one girl tries to buy their friendship with an Xbox 360."

There's also animated series that have the porn and sex sprinkled in through the episodes, rather than just meaningless sex.

I'm not gone to sit here and pretend they're all well written. But DoAX isn't gone to win any awards with its grand story telling.
Those doujins you mention and XXX animations are they canonical? There's no need for that sarcastic remark regarding storytelling either.

Either you understand what canon is or you don't and why it matters. Just harping on it as some blatant sex game doesn't help your argument.
 

someguy1231

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Metalix Knightmare said:
someguy1231 said:
Sex appeal alone can't sell a game. Why pay $60 for a game full of girls in bikinis when you have limitless amounts of free porn online? And even then, you can always watch someone's "Let's Play" of that game in question if you just want some eye candy.
You ARE aware that the Hooters Restaurant chain is still a thing yes? As are Bikini bars?

People like teasing sight just as much as they like open titillation dude. Fact of life.
Oh, believe me, I'd hate to see sex appeal disappear completely from games. I was just saying it'll take more than sex appeal to make me buy a game. Hooters would have gone bankrupt years ago if everyone thought their food/drinks were terrible.

To use an analogy, consider food condiments. There aren't very many people who eat ketchup and mustard alone, but there are plenty who like to put it on other foods. It can't make bad food taste good, but it can make good food taste even better.
 

Avnger

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slo said:
Dr. Crawver said:
Thing is, people are saying it not as something that may be the case, but as the definite reason without any actual evidence. I mean multiple people have said under no uncertain terms in this thread that it's a major factor. Asking for proof is not unreasonable.
It is not unreasonable, but you will have to go deeper than that. Like, the backlashes are pretty visible, the absence of softcore tittilation games with high production values is evident, and it does not take long to put two and two together. Granted it is not a fact that they are connected but that's one of the more likely explanations and that's why people stick to it. It becomes even more likely for someone who would not mind some lighthearted jiggle physics nonsense to take a break from all of the frowny face murderings. The kind of people that know for a fact that these games are wanted.
The backlash? What backlash has happened recently? There have been more cases of gamers losing their mind over 'censorship' and 'blacklash' than actual censorship or backlashs happening...

Also, saying 'it doesn't take long to put two and two together' doesn't take away your burden of proof. YOu might as well just say 'because I said so.' They have the same meaning. Sure, these games may be wanted. The question that matters is by how many and how much will they pay? Remember, you're dealing with publishers who considered Tomb Raider not reaching 3 million says as a failure. Why would they waste their time and money on a small niche?
 

Avnger

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slo said:
Avnger said:
The backlash? What backlash has happened recently? There have been more cases of gamers losing their mind over 'censorship' and 'blacklash' than actual censorship or backlashs happening...

Also, saying 'it doesn't take long to put two and two together' doesn't take away your burden of proof. YOu might as well just say 'because I said so.' They have the same meaning. Sure, these games may be wanted. The question that matters is by how many and how much will they pay? Remember, you're dealing with publishers who considered Tomb Raider not reaching 3 million says as a failure. Why would they waste their time and money on a small niche?
I don't assume you really want answers.
I'd love some if you actually had any.

slo said:
It is not hard to see how people get pretty loud over a small bit of a digital tit, unless you have a specific reason to not see it.
Censorship is still censorship even it you're okay with it.
You still have yet to show any proof other than "its not hard to see" which, again, is the exact same thing as "because I said so."

slo said:
I already suggested a term "Space Magic Improved Bettering Through Removal" for such occasions, but people are reluctant to use it. I wonder why.
random phrase is random? When did we start talking about space magic and/or its betterment and/or its removal? We're talking about panty and bikini shots of underage anime girls here.

slo said:
And my proof is right there. It says "most likely explanation" and it is backed up by two things that look very much like cause and effect.
Again, this is not proof of anything. This is "because I said so." Proof means facts and facts means evidence. Your assumptions aren't evidence.

slo said:
Does not make it a fact but explains pretty well why a lot of people treat it like one.
And you don't really need GTA budgets to make a beach volleyball game.
No, you don't need a budget, but you still haven't given any reasons why a dev would waste any money on such a game.

Look, I'm sorry that the niche titles you enjoy aren't mainstream (hence, niche), but that's part of life when the things you like aren't enjoyed in games by others (or at least are very low on priority behind an actual well made game). There have been attempts to bring products like DOAX to Western audiences.[footnote]DOAX2 Sales Figures[/footnote][footnote]Outlaw Volleyball sales figures[/footnote] They sold like crap (.25 million units worldwide for DAOX2, .3 million for all editions of the western made Outlaw Volleyball). In conclusion, yes there is a lack of these games in the Western market, however, that is due to the few attempts that were made selling barely anything. For comparison's sake, Dishonored and Assassin's Creed: Unity, 2, and Brotherhood on PC alone all sold double the amount of units that DOAX2 did on every system.[footnote]Sales Figures for Dishonored and Assassin's Creed games[/footnote]
 

Callate

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Einspanner said:
Uh huh, thank god it was so clear I didn't mean the recent one. As for the trivia about how it was made, not sure why that matters.

Callate said:
Likewise, the movies you mention came out more than thirty years ago.
Hence my use of the phrase, "Decades ago". Seriously, this is getting old, fast.

Callate said:
Movies, television, and advertising are far less "drenched with sex" now than they were then.
Ridiculous. Go watch a Rihanna video.
Let me spell this out, then. You seem to think that the entertainment and culture of the 80s is interchangeable with that of the present day with regards to trying to make your point. It isn't. And the reason it matters whether a game was made by three people or three hundred is that a roaring success by 1980s standards isn't enough sales to keep a typical present-day game developer afloat.

Suggesting that it should be easy to make a sexy game because "Leisure Suit Larry" was successful thirty years ago borders on willful ignorance. There's more in play, and more that has changed, than Internet pornography.

...Not least that MTV barely plays music videos any more, and someone who was exposed to a Rihanna music video probably sought it out intentionally.