What's keeping the West from making DOAX style games?

[Gengisgame]

Never have. Never will.

Here, quoting you

"Why, I ask, worry so much about AAA price games wanting to feature or not feature it when the product you seek is already out there for even lower cost and less hassle?"

There was no real discussion, you weren't even keeping up with what you said yourself.

Or you can't see the difference between extremely low budget and almost any console game, both are pretty bad.

You keep going on about the point of straight up porn, you are either unwilling or incapable of listening.

 

[Gengisgame]

Honestly, it's not just this kind of game. You don't exactly sell millions of copies of "Strip Majong" in the West either. If you just want to be titillated, there's a world of porn that includes just that, lots of it animated, or if it's your thing there are strip bars absolutely everywhere in most of the West, certainly North America and Canada. I can't imagine a bunch of Floridians who normally go to a strip bar on a Friday night, would be terribly interested in relatively low-res T&A.

Which is the final thing; real women are still vastly more detailed and superior to the digital variety in every way. If we were having this discussion in 20 years, maybe it would be different.

I've made this point enough times but people really need to stop making comments as if porn and any other form of titilation are interchangeable.

I mean think how ridiculous it would sound if someone told you not to watch an action film instead go watch a boxing match on youtube.

Instead of reading an award winning horror novel just read some creepy pasta.

Instead of having sex just masturbate.

Or that one hot female character in a game with the backstory, the special moves etc means more to a gamer than a pornstar.

Your last point is doesn't work, men don't have or always want access to real women, that's why these things exist, you wouldn't tell a woman to go get a real dick if you found out she had a dildo.

 

[ROTTL]

Case in point Rockstar, the company with a notoriety for controversy could be capitalizing on the fact that there is an audience of desperate fans who had been badly burnt by an increase of censorship in Japanese games and being denied the more lewd titles. I mean it is the perfect way to take Japan's patented fanservice games and make them even better.

Seriously, they can do what KT can never do, bare frontal nudity.

But yeah why can't the west make something like DOAX despite having shit like HBO?

There's an audience of desperate fans, but it's not a very large audience, and it's an audience that's going to grow up and stop liking this kind of thing, for the most part.

Meanwhile you can make something with "Open World" and "Space" on it and market to millions. It's not a puzzle, anymore than "Why is that flavor of ice cream I love not made anymore?!"

It didn't make enough money to be worth producing it, storing it, shipping and selling it. It didn't have to be a failure either, but why would you mint pennies when you could mint dimes?

 

[Gamerpalooza]

I believe that's called Fire Emblem. Now if you mean people jacking off to animated characters, I believe that's called hentai or cartoon porn, and the magic of the internet means they don't have to shell out $60 and play through a crappy game in order to beat their meat to it.

Sadly Fire Emblem doesn't really have mini-game. Unless I consider something like Arena one but that don't work so well post game.

This is a series of mini-games where the rewards are increasingly skimpier bikinis, not This War of Mine.

You don't get "skimpier bikinis" for playing the mini games. You get currency to spend on an array of items or bikinis. Also not all purchasable wear are skimpy since some actually cover the women up more.

Give me a break, sir. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Spank material is fine as long as it's honest about being spank material.

Then practice what you preach since not everyone sees the game like you do.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

"Why, I ask, worry so much about AAA price games wanting to feature or not feature it when the product you seek is already out there for even lower cost and less hassle?"

And do tell, prosecutor, where I said someone was not allowed to like it?

You keep going on about the point of straight up porn, you are either unwilling or incapable of listening.

Yes, and I intend to keep on going about it, as long as titilation is involved in the discussion.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

I've made this point enough times but people really need to stop making comments as if porn and any other form of titilation are interchangeable.

How are they not? The same goal is in mind, isn't it?

And if it's not, what's the goal?

Instead of reading an award winning horror novel just read some creepy pasta.

Creepypastas are usually just shit horror stories.

Your last point is doesn't work, men don't have or always want access to real women, that's why these things exist, you wouldn't tell a woman to go get a real dick if you found out she had a dildo.

No, but I don't see how that's equivalent. Titilation is available in easier to access forms, for cheaper, and without the grinding most of the time.

 

[Smithnikov_v1legacy]

Then practice what you preach since not everyone sees the game like you do.

It's your money, your time, your enjoyment, but I still just plain don't see the appeal.

Just don't act snooty about it, I won't act snooty about not getting it, deal?

 

[Gamerpalooza]

It's your money, your time, your enjoyment, but I still just plain don't see the appeal.

You don't have to but don't generalize people into categorizes just because you don't see it. Regardless if "some" people fall into that category since there's always the possibility of exceptions.

Just don't act snooty about it, I won't act snooty about not getting it, deal?

It's not about being snooty. There's a market here that isn't meant to be all about violence, gore, and/or "gravure". Competitiveness can still exist but it doesn't need to be the core concept.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

"The data does not mean jack"

Spoken like someone who absolutely doesn't like what the data is telling them, but not someone to be taken seriously in a debate wherein data is probably the only significant factor to be discussed. The bottom line data of shit sales isn't hard to figure out, it matches the anecdotal reaction you see in this thread, and frankly it matches the decision by all involved not to bother too much with it.

Well, it's the data on one franchise that sold poorly. Could've been for dozens of reasons other than what you have in mind. And any kind of conclusion drawn from it is bound to be too far fetched. Lots of games have shit sales, but rarely it condemns the whole genre.

Ok, if it could have been dozens of reasons, then give me those dozens of reasons that fit the data as well or better than the existing theories. Don't try to Trump this.

 

[Gengisgame]

Ok, if it could have been dozens of reasons, then give me those dozens of reasons that fit the data as well or better than the existing theories. Don't try to Trump this.

Dozens? And what are you going to do, pickle them?
Here's one, maybe the game isn't good.
Now if you find some evidence that DOAX is a genuinely good game, we will move to the others.

An apparently popular visual Novel has raised 1.2 million in kickstarter, stars a guy with a bunch of girls and has erotic content.

That's more than Divinity Original Sin raised.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Ok, if it could have been dozens of reasons, then give me those dozens of reasons that fit the data as well or better than the existing theories. Don't try to Trump this.

Dozens? And what are you going to do, pickle them?
Here's one, maybe the game isn't good.
Now if you find some evidence that DOAX is a genuinely good game, we will move to the others.

An apparently popular visual Novel has raised 1.2 million in kickstarter, stars a guy with a bunch of girls and has erotic content.

That's more than Divinity Original Sin raised.

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

 

[EternallyBored]

Ok, if it could have been dozens of reasons, then give me those dozens of reasons that fit the data as well or better than the existing theories. Don't try to Trump this.

Dozens? And what are you going to do, pickle them?
Here's one, maybe the game isn't good.
Now if you find some evidence that DOAX is a genuinely good game, we will move to the others.

An apparently popular visual Novel has raised 1.2 million in kickstarter, stars a guy with a bunch of girls and has erotic content.

That's more than Divinity Original Sin raised.

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

It did, divinity was supposed to be built on a budget of 3 million, in the end, Larion reported the game cost about 4.6 million to make, Larion had investors as well as their own liquid assets from previous games, the Kickstarter was mostly to gauge interest and give them some extra cash to elevate the game beyond their initial plans. Which, with Larions experience in making budget games paid off for them.

As for VNs, over a million is high for a VN if you are talking the one s that are just still scenes with almost no voices, usually if it costs that much they are the ones that spring for the fancy voice acting and animated scenes, a VN with Divinity:OS's total budget would likely be very rare.

EDIT: I should mention the budget was in euros not dollars so the number is somewhat higher when converted.

 

[EternallyBored]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

 

[EternallyBored]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

The easiest way would be the same way Japan does it, lots of high end merchandise targeted at collectors, the audience is niche enough that the industry wouldn't be nearly as large without the merchandise. Even in Japan a niche ecchi property isn't usually going to survive on just games, VN, or light novel sales. You either have enough broad appeal outside the fanservice to grab a greater audience, or you double down on your ecchi otaku appeal and start pushing merch like it's going out of style, usually some mixture of both. For the former, it's like how the mainline Fate Stay VNs started out by adding porn scenes to draw in that specific branch of the otaku crowd but later dropped most of the perverted stuff when the series caught on with more mainstream audiences. The later involves pushing spinoffs, posters, OSTs, art books, and $400 collectible figurines, it's a niche high price collectors market, sort of like high end model train building in the US, very low sales volume, but high profit per piece sold, and a diversity that allows you to sell a lot of expensive items to a (relatively) small number of people.

The former is how we get a lot of our current market in the west, because Japan can't export its merchandising base as easily as it can the main story/game properties, so they focus on broadening appeal over exploiting a niche market with specialized products. Even with Muv-Luv, they toned down the ecchi stuff in editions to market it to Japanese people on consoles, those editions pushed the popularity of the series as they outsold the pornographic PC version, so Japan essentially applies a similar policy to the West, since they can't exploit the merchandise, they change the property to make it appeal to a broader audience.

 

[Shiver Me Tits]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

The problem is that video gaming in general is a high-volume, low-margin business. The marketing, the management, the development and every aspect of it has been formed by that reality. Even consoles are typically sold at or near a loss, and success only becomes apparent at the scale of tens of millions of units sold. Games, which are designed to reach a portion of that market, echo that model.

It is a mass-media, and if movies, television, and the rest have taught us anything it's that audience numbers matter more than audience "quality". It's desirable to have young people, but if you have a few million of ANYONE you can make some serious money on low margins and high volume. Targeting a tiny fraction of that market for a high margin, low volume run of something is going to be tough, and why would you do it? You can make so much more by taking $1 every month from 10 million people (and in reality those numbers are SO much higher) than you are relying on the continuing dedication and solvency of a few hundred thousand at most.

It's the equivalent of trying to open a 3 Michelin star restaurant to cater to a bunch of critics, instead of inventing McDonalds. Except of course in this case it's not a quality differential, because generally the better games are found outside of the ecchi sphere, it's just about a niche interest. Still, if porn has taught us anything, it's just how dedicated people are about their kinks.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

The problem is that video gaming in general is a high-volume, low-margin business. The marketing, the management, the development and every aspect of it has been formed by that reality. Even consoles are typically sold at or near a loss, and success only becomes apparent at the scale of tens of millions of units sold. Games, which are designed to reach a portion of that market, echo that model.

It is a mass-media, and if movies, television, and the rest have taught us anything it's that audience numbers matter more than audience "quality". It's desirable to have young people, but if you have a few million of ANYONE you can make some serious money on low margins and high volume. Targeting a tiny fraction of that market for a high margin, low volume run of something is going to be tough, and why would you do it? You can make so much more by taking $1 every month from 10 million people (and in reality those numbers are SO much higher) than you are relying on the continuing dedication and solvency of a few hundred thousand at most.

It's the equivalent of trying to open a 3 Michelin star restaurant to cater to a bunch of critics, instead of inventing McDonalds. Except of course in this case it's not a quality differential, because generally the better games are found outside of the ecchi sphere, it's just about a niche interest. Still, if porn has taught us anything, it's just how dedicated people are about their kinks.

How would you make the McDonalds of sex? This thread is about the idea of a DOA:BV being made, so how could you take a game like that with what looks like a very small appeal and make it appeal to millions?

That doesn't sound right. A game like Divinity should cost way more then a visual novel (what novel). I am assuming anyway, maybe I am mistaken and visual novels are way more expensive then I think of them as. Then again lost of your kiststarter games aren't actually banking on just KS money a lot get investments form companies who see major molaw after the game is made.

Sorry for quoting you again, but I came up with enough new information that it made more sense to make it a second post. The VN Gengisgame is talking about is the Kickstarter for Muv-Luv. It wasn't for a new game, the Kickstarter was asking for 250k to translate and import all 3 visual novels (plus 2 additional ones in a stretch goal)in the series to the US, that they exceeded their asking price for what amounts to a translation of three games that are almost ten years old is impressive, but it makes it hard to compare to something like more traditional kickstarters.

The number of backers also breaks down oddly, for the Muv-Luv Kickstarter, it took less than 8000 people to reach that 1.2 million total, whereas D:OS had over twice as many backers, the sequel to D:OS got almost 50k backers behind it. So a lot less people pledged a higher average dollar amount. Which kind of makes sense if you look at the audience as similar to the Japanese otaku demographic, I.e. An extremely niche market that is very dedicated and willing to spend more money on merchandise than the general population, which is explained by many of the higher tiers focusing more on merchandise surrounding g the game than you normally see in kickstarters.The game is released on Steam now, it would be interesting to know how it sold compared to other slightly above indie level projects.

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

The easiest way would be the same way Japan does it, lots of high end merchandise targeted at collectors, the audience is niche enough that the industry wouldn't be nearly as large without the merchandise. Even in Japan a niche ecchi property isn't usually going to survive on just games, VN, or light novel sales. You either have enough broad appeal outside the fanservice to grab a greater audience, or you double down on your ecchi otaku appeal and start pushing merch like it's going out of style, usually some mixture of both. For the former, it's like how the mainline Fate Stay VNs started out by adding porn scenes to draw in that specific branch of the otaku crowd but later dropped most of the perverted stuff when the series caught on with more mainstream audiences. The later involves pushing spinoffs, posters, OSTs, art books, and $400 collectible figurines, it's a niche high price collectors market, sort of like high end model train building in the US, very low sales volume, but high profit per piece sold, and a diversity that allows you to sell a lot of expensive items to a (relatively) small number of people.

The former is how we get a lot of our current market in the west, because Japan can't export its merchandising base as easily as it can the main story/game properties, so they focus on broadening appeal over exploiting a niche market with specialized products. Even with Muv-Luv, they toned down the ecchi stuff in editions to market it to Japanese people on consoles, those editions pushed the popularity of the series as they outsold the pornographic PC version, so Japan essentially applies a similar policy to the West, since they can't exploit the merchandise, they change the property to make it appeal to a broader audience.

Not sure if I would like the results of copying the Japanese model. Mostly because I don't think it will make anything that would appeal to me. (And they really shouldn't because I would not spend hundreds on a game.)

 

[Gengisgame]

So, judging by this, The market is small, but it is willing to spend more. How would you exploit that in the west?

You took the wrong tactic, change the genre.

The visual novel genre is one of the smallest around, as far as I am aware it's not even sold in the west, it's all downloaded or imported.

A game within the same genre as Divinity but in the overly sexualized style of DOA would do fairly well.