What's so bad about Maths?

[Hazy992]

I can see the use of a lot of it, it just makes my head hurt

But where does that confusion come from? Are teachers failing to explain it properly or something? A lot of it comes naturally if you understand the basic principles in depth.

Some people just don't get maths (myself included). Everyone's brains are just wired differently, it's no big deal and it can't be helped.

I don't buy that. I used to not get it, and did fairly poorly in whatever math class I took. Then I got into 3d modeling and animation. At some point I realized I was doing algebra and trigonometry in three dimensions every day and enjoying it. Went back to college to take calculus and aced it.

I don't think it's because people's "brains are wired differently", I think it's because we have an education system that fails to teach people the value of math. Even if you aren't an engineer or animator, you can still employ algebra, trig, and even calculus in your life.

Back in high school the subjects I was always best at were humanities subjects like English, religious studies and geography but I always sucked at maths. My friend was the opposite; he was best at things like maths and physics but less strong in humanities subjects. We were in the same classes for everything yet we we're different in this regard. It's nothing to do with the teaching.

I don't know why it's so hard to buy I just plain don't get maths, regardless of the quality of teaching.

And people's brains are wired differently. It's called lateralisation of brain function.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm saying that yes, we have our interests and are often indifferent to anything outside those interests, for whatever reason. When we get forced into dealing with those things, we fear or dislike those subjects unless we see the value in them. The majority of people are indifferent to math, yes, and to that extent it is a result of what you refer to as wiring. I was when I was in school. However, this can change when you see its value. It works the other way around as well. An analytically-minded person can wake up to the humanities in the same way.

Perhaps Neil De'Grasse Tyson can explain it better. In this video he describes going from apathy towards the humanities to understanding and relishing in it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6081003512831231159

It's not that I don't like maths or that it doesn't interest me. I don't understand it. I never have and what I was saying is that it doesn't matter how engaging my teachers made it, I still wouldn't have got it.

Brain lateralisation is important and I can't change my biology.

 

[McMullen]

I can see the use of a lot of it, it just makes my head hurt

But where does that confusion come from? Are teachers failing to explain it properly or something? A lot of it comes naturally if you understand the basic principles in depth.

Some people just don't get maths (myself included). Everyone's brains are just wired differently, it's no big deal and it can't be helped.

I don't buy that. I used to not get it, and did fairly poorly in whatever math class I took. Then I got into 3d modeling and animation. At some point I realized I was doing algebra and trigonometry in three dimensions every day and enjoying it. Went back to college to take calculus and aced it.

I don't think it's because people's "brains are wired differently", I think it's because we have an education system that fails to teach people the value of math. Even if you aren't an engineer or animator, you can still employ algebra, trig, and even calculus in your life.

Back in high school the subjects I was always best at were humanities subjects like English, religious studies and geography but I always sucked at maths. My friend was the opposite; he was best at things like maths and physics but less strong in humanities subjects. We were in the same classes for everything yet we we're different in this regard. It's nothing to do with the teaching.

I don't know why it's so hard to buy I just plain don't get maths, regardless of the quality of teaching.

And people's brains are wired differently. It's called lateralisation of brain function.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm saying that yes, we have our interests and are often indifferent to anything outside those interests, for whatever reason. When we get forced into dealing with those things, we fear or dislike those subjects unless we see the value in them. The majority of people are indifferent to math, yes, and to that extent it is a result of what you refer to as wiring. I was when I was in school. However, this can change when you see its value. It works the other way around as well. An analytically-minded person can wake up to the humanities in the same way.

Perhaps Neil De'Grasse Tyson can explain it better. In this video he describes going from apathy towards the humanities to understanding and relishing in it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6081003512831231159

It's not that I don't like maths or that it doesn't interest me. I don't understand it. I never have and what I was saying is that it doesn't matter how engaging my teachers made it, I still wouldn't have got it.

Brain lateralisation is important and I can't change my biology.

Not liking it, not understanding it, not much difference for most people. Wasn't much of one in my case. I used to not get it, now I do. I used to not like it, because I didn't get it, and now I do.

But this thing you're doing, where you decide you don't get it, don't like it, and never will, is something that I'm pretty sure is part of the problem. The more you deny the possibility that you ever will see value in it, the less likely you are to have your mind changed in the way Tyson describes. Did you watch the video?

 

[wintercoat]

My opinion is that it's in the way math is taught. Your given the numbers and formulas, told to write them down, memorize them, them you're tested on what you memorized. Very few courses actually go over the theorems or proofs, they just expect you to "get it." Very few teachers seem to want to sit down with they're students and actually explain it. It's just, "Here's an equation, memorize it. Done? Good, now repeat it back to me."

 

[ChildishLegacy]

My opinion is that it's in the way math is taught. Your given the numbers and formulas, told to write them down, memorize them, them you're tested on what you memorized. Very few courses actually go over the theorems or proofs, they just expect you to "get it." Very few teachers seem to want to sit down with they're students and actually explain it. It's just, "Here's an equation, memorize it. Done? Good, now repeat it back to me."

Exactly, Maths is all about proof if anything, the applications come from proving new things, and you need to be able to comprehend it to fit it all in together. Being able to solve 1 step problems with memorized formulas and methods isn't maths, it's how you pass a maths exam.

 

[Hazy992]

I can see the use of a lot of it, it just makes my head hurt

But where does that confusion come from? Are teachers failing to explain it properly or something? A lot of it comes naturally if you understand the basic principles in depth.

Some people just don't get maths (myself included). Everyone's brains are just wired differently, it's no big deal and it can't be helped.

I don't buy that. I used to not get it, and did fairly poorly in whatever math class I took. Then I got into 3d modeling and animation. At some point I realized I was doing algebra and trigonometry in three dimensions every day and enjoying it. Went back to college to take calculus and aced it.

I don't think it's because people's "brains are wired differently", I think it's because we have an education system that fails to teach people the value of math. Even if you aren't an engineer or animator, you can still employ algebra, trig, and even calculus in your life.

Back in high school the subjects I was always best at were humanities subjects like English, religious studies and geography but I always sucked at maths. My friend was the opposite; he was best at things like maths and physics but less strong in humanities subjects. We were in the same classes for everything yet we we're different in this regard. It's nothing to do with the teaching.

I don't know why it's so hard to buy I just plain don't get maths, regardless of the quality of teaching.

And people's brains are wired differently. It's called lateralisation of brain function.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm saying that yes, we have our interests and are often indifferent to anything outside those interests, for whatever reason. When we get forced into dealing with those things, we fear or dislike those subjects unless we see the value in them. The majority of people are indifferent to math, yes, and to that extent it is a result of what you refer to as wiring. I was when I was in school. However, this can change when you see its value. It works the other way around as well. An analytically-minded person can wake up to the humanities in the same way.

Perhaps Neil De'Grasse Tyson can explain it better. In this video he describes going from apathy towards the humanities to understanding and relishing in it:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6081003512831231159

It's not that I don't like maths or that it doesn't interest me. I don't understand it. I never have and what I was saying is that it doesn't matter how engaging my teachers made it, I still wouldn't have got it.

Brain lateralisation is important and I can't change my biology.

Not liking it, not understanding it, not much difference for most people. Wasn't much of one in my case. I used to not get it, now I do. I used to not like it, because I didn't get it, and now I do.

But this thing you're doing, where you decide you don't get it, don't like it, and never will, is something that I'm pretty sure is part of the problem. The more you deny the possibility that you ever will see value in it, the less likely you are to have your mind changed in the way Tyson describes. Did you watch the video?

Well after 10+ years of trying and not understanding it and at the same realising I was good at humanities subjects I think I can safely say I don't get it. I know myself better than you do, so I know I'm incapable of having anything other than a basic understanding of it. I look at mathematical formulas and I get confused and I have absolutely no idea of what I'm doing. This isn't merely apathy or not liking the subject; it doesn't make sense to me.

I don't know why you can't grasp that some people are just naturally better at some tasks and poor at others.

 

[Staskala]

3) There's a lack of enthusiasm for Maths, and a lot of ignorance to how interesting/useful Maths really is - A lot of the time I hear people asking "why is this useful?" or "this is pointless" when they are learning new things in maths. Almost all of maths has a use, and Maths and Science are integrated into almost every aspect of our day to day lives, it's just hidden from everybody so only the Maths and Science people behind things like Engineering, Economics and Chemistry have to worry about it, but without Maths, we'd have almost no aspect of our modern lifestyle that we live today.

Engineers enthusiastic about Maths? Do you honestly believe that? The higher you get in any field that isn't maths or physics the more will you wonder why you're actually doing it even if you know its uses.
Why learn how to solve differential equations or Fourier transform by hand? There is not a single practical application where it's even possible. Not much in engineering is solvable analytically to begin with, everything has to be approximated numerically. Indeed, in real life everything is done by the computer. I don't have problems with Maths, but if you think that just knowing a few real life applications (and by real life I mean idealized and simplified situations that don't occur naturally) makes Maths super interesting you are completely mistaken, the general attitude amongst engineering students is no different from that in high school. It's just discarded as something one needs to know to understand some basics and that's it.
Note that I'm using the university definition of Maths, not as a synonym of "everything having to do with numbers". Mathematicians would cry tears of blood if they could see what engineers do, physicists doubly so.

So I'd say the answer to the question "Why are people not enthusiastic about Maths" is "Because it isn't very interesting", plain and simple.

 

[sniddy_v1legacy]

Personally I 'get' maths

To me it's a simple, pure, rational thing.

I'd always say maths taught properly is as much about the formulas and the processes as the HOW you process the information in a calm orderly manor to set patterns and processes. That is what you can learn from maths even if you never use it.

I have mind you used maths in my day to day life, my first real job involved the application of a formula to decide how much should be paid....the formula was at it's most basic algebra. I can take one look at it, understand it, see the logic and how it all flows.

Most of my fellow trainees...didn't...we spent a week going over and over and over and over it.

At least 2 quit as it was 'far too complex' and it was just put numbers in, follow process, and get result...

I've also formed a basic algebraic equation to work out the best use of resources in games....and good old a2 + b2 = c2 resulted in a few crack shots from catapults in Warhammer as well as understanding stats, dice roll odds, percentages etc

HOWEVER I can't draw, paint, model or make anything with my hands...maybe I really am just a logical person...who knows.

 

[SckizoBoy]

2) The teaching is bad/students are taught to pass maths exams, not to understand maths - I think there's way too much emphasis on exams when it comes to maths, and teachers tend to give students set methods to get around problems, rather than having them use their own heads. I think I have very good teachers that are teaching me A level maths currently, especially one who actually goes into depth about how the Maths works, rather than just giving us cookie cutter methods to use, which really does help you get a better understanding of Maths.

I'll pick up on this point, and back up what I'm going to say by pointing out that my old man's a private tutor for a number of 14-17 year olds and gets me to help him with prep work and check his handiwork.

The teaching of pure mathematics has gone down the pan... a lot. Back in my day (I may be in my mid-twenties, but bear in mind I did GCSE maths - exam for 16yo's for all you non-Brits - close onto 17 years ago now...) the higher tier content was genuinely that, 'higher tier' and was the logical route to take for those who wanted to do A-level maths. Content included advanced trigonometry, geometry, basic calculus, abstract algebra (sets being the main one) and polynomials.

I will now quote verbatim from the Edexcel GCSE Mathematics Unit 2 - Section A Higher Tier specimen paper, 2006:

Question 2: The probability that Asif will pass his driving test at the first attempt is 0.6
(a) Explain why Asif is more likely to pass the test at the first attempt than he is to fail at the first attempt. (1 mark)

...

I'd continue, but the amount of just number punching into calculators or plain elementary (e.g. A college wants to buy 570 calculators. They are sold in boxes of 50. Work out the number of boxes the college should buy. - from OCR) almost tempts me to give myself a lobotomy to save myself the grief.

My point being that mathematics for the school-goer has been simplified to the extent that once they are presented with A-level maths (a lot of which used to be GCSE) or some equivalent of advancement on standard syllabus fare, it is overwhelming and taught haphazardly such that the students 'know' (if barely) as opposed to 'comprehend'. Also, the attitude that pervades society is one that dislikes or unashamedly maintains ignorance of mathematics (or at least I get that feeling being a Brit), and so there is neither aptitude nor propensity for the encouragement of mathematical thought or appreciation. Thus, there becomes an ever increasing need to introduce ever more simplicities in an effort to appeal to the masses when a stumped kid goes to his parents 'Mom! Dad! I don't understand this...'

BTW, I'm like you OP... though perhaps more forthright about it, but in education, I am undoubtedly an elitist, the only problem with that label generally being the widely accepted definition being the social type. If you don't have the grades for this university: fuck off, I don't care how impoverished a background you have or how rich your parents are, so fuck off!

*ahem*

I have one thing to recommend for everyone who dislikes or doesn't understand maths: go watch Donald in Mathmagicland, go on, watch it now, it's only half an hour long and it (albeit in simplistic terms, because come on, it's aimed at kids, or at least kids of the 1960's) demonstrates how widespread the necessity of mathematics is in life, its presence in nature and the breadth of its utility, even if it is unconscious.

 

[robot slipper]

In my experience, it was the schools/education system. When I was in Canada, I was a straight-A maths student, getting 90% or higher on tests on a regular basis. I was in the higher-tier "S" level maths classes. I moved to the UK when I was 17 and went on to take A-Level maths. Immediately, I was a D student, getting at best 60% on tests. I continued to be good at the other subjects I took at A-Level (Chemistry and Biology). So it was any one or a combination of:

a) the type of maths taught in Canada was piss easy
b) my teachers in Canada were better
c) A-Levels (UK) are significantly more difficult than maths taught in Canadian schools
d) my teachers in the UK were crap

What always pissed me off as well was the UK media's annual "Exams are too easy!!" headlines every year when the exam results came out. I remember thinking "whoever wrote that obviously did not sit the A-Level maths exam this year..."

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

No but some people just don't get maths, no matter how it's taught. Other than the really basic stuff it just goes over my head. It's nothing to do with how I was taught; I just don't understand it. I didn't get it at school, I didn't get what little maths I had to in college, and I'm struggling to understand statistics in university now.

Spoiler: Tell me if this sounds right, I think I have a grasp on why a lot of people find maths difficult.

It's not the same as other lessons, it's incredibly easy to get left behind with maths if you hit a brick wall with some of the things you're taught. Most of the time that brick wall manifests itself in the form of seeing the numbers and losing your shit. Sometimes you just can't see what you're doing, why you're doing it or even what you're trying to achieve.

OT: I'm pretty good at maths, for the most part. Occasionally I'll hit a brick wall with a difficult question, or with an intolerably simple one, but I'll usually make it out with the right answer after a while. Mechanics and Decision maths are pretty good too, as far as A-level courses go, I have yet to see what Statistics is like or whether I can do Further Pure in an exam.

 

[SckizoBoy]

So it was any one or a combination of:

a) the type of maths taught in Canada was piss easy
b) my teachers in Canada were better
c) A-Levels (UK) are significantly more difficult than maths taught in Canadian schools
d) my teachers in the UK were crap

I'm inclined to say that it's a combination of all four with particular stress on (d). Question: did you go to a private/grammar/comprehensive? Not that it makes much of a difference, but you'll find that for grammars/comprehensives, maths teachers there are apathetic for the most part since they've got their maths degree, then have to go through the PGCE to teach. These days (and for the past few years, for that matter), people wholly unqualified to teach maths are being pressed into teaching maths and usually hash it up. Most of the top maths graduates either (used to) go straight into the City (for the money), go into theoretical physics (for the tenure), go into mathematical theory (for the dweebism) or become an actuary (for an easy if boring as hell life). So what teaching is left with is pure, unadulterated detritus!

As an individual who took the GCSE and A-level maths exams every year for six years each (mostly for shits and giggles) I can justifiably say that standards in the level of examination have slipped though my old man will attest that standards in the level of teaching have slipped even faster and further.

Heil Blair!

 

[MuzzleFlash]

Mathematics is fantastic, it's the language of the universe isn't it?

Biased though, as an engineering student. I always struggled with more subjective subjects.

 

[Pinkamena]

Because people's minds are wired differently. Some are good at logical thinking, deduction, etc. Others are good with memorizing dates and events, and others are good with art and creative stuff.

Now, I'm a little in the middle. I study physics, so I have many classes in advanced calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, etc. I find math interesting, but I still think it's pretty difficult to grasp it. I have given up on understanding proofs, for example. When I learn something new, I want to know how to do it, not why I'm solving it in a specific way.
On the other side, I am creative person. I enjoy drawing, and I am a freelance 3D animator. So I can see where both groups stand on this subject.

 

[robot slipper]

So it was any one or a combination of:

a) the type of maths taught in Canada was piss easy
b) my teachers in Canada were better
c) A-Levels (UK) are significantly more difficult than maths taught in Canadian schools
d) my teachers in the UK were crap

I'm inclined to say that it's a combination of all four with particular stress on (d). Question: did you go to a private/grammar/comprehensive? Not that it makes much of a difference, but you'll find that for grammars/comprehensives, maths teachers there are apathetic for the most part since they've got their maths degree, then have to go through the PGCE to teach. These days (and for the past few years, for that matter), people wholly unqualified to teach maths are being pressed into teaching maths and usually hash it up. Most of the top maths graduates either (used to) go straight into the City (for the money), go into theoretical physics (for the tenure), go into mathematical theory (for the dweebism) or become an actuary (for an easy if boring as hell life). So what teaching is left with is pure, unadulterated detritus!

As an individual who took the GCSE and A-level maths exams every year for six years each (mostly for shits and giggles) I can justifiably say that standards in the level of examination have slipped though my old man will attest that standards in the level of teaching have slipped even faster and further.

Heil Blair!

I went to a state/comprehensive school in London* about 12 years ago. Found out after joining that it has always been known as a "language" school, and so maybe thats why the maths department wasn't that good. Most of the other students looked at me like I had two heads when I said I was taking Biology, Chemistry, and Maths - they were all doing languages, History, and DT.

I know what you mean about the teaching situation, I have a lot of friends who have become teachers - starting out really eager and ending up really cynical about the whole system.

*It was used in the film Love Actually, the bit at the end where there's the Christmas play!

 

[SckizoBoy]

Mathematics is fantastic, it's the language of the universe isn't it?

La Mathematica e l'Alfabeto nel quale DIO ha scritto l'Universo!

I know what you mean about the teaching situation, I have a lot of friends who have become teachers - starting out really eager and ending up really cynical about the whole system.

Interesting claim to fame...(!) Anyway, one of my friends has qualified as a teacher, but I seriously doubt if he actually will become a teacher... he's too laid back for it. And my old man didn't even manage to finish his PGCE his placement experiences so jaded him...

 

[XMark]

I find it funny that in the UK they say Maths instead of Math. Kind of a weird mouth movement to shift from TH to S. And every time I hear the word Maths I can only think of the Maths episode of "Look Around You", which was hilarious.

That narrator has the most awesome voice.

I don't actually have anything useful to bring to this conversation.

 

[BlackStar42]

What's bad about Maths? Clearly, you've never had to try and solve the Schrodinger equation. I can just about cope with maths in chemistry, but when it takes a professional mathematician one whole hour to solve a single equation, you know shit just got real.