What's so bad about Maths?
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This thread isn't really about enthusiasm, I was asking why people had such a hard time comprehending it and why it tends to be the 'hardest' subject in schools for most people.Staskala said:
I have to disagree with you there too, Maths can be very interesting to a lot of people, don't state it like its a consensus that Maths is interesting to nobody.
I had such an amazing Maths teacher, he pretty much made sure he wasn't making you memorise, but making you understand everything that he was doing. And it pains me to say this but, I was still god damn terrible at maths. I was doing only general mathematics in high school and I still only managed to get 70/100 (Not good considering how easy the actual maths is). I've tried to love maths, I've had tutors, I've had 3 different maths teachers. But I find it gets all jumbled in my head. The formula's confuse me or I get them mixed up or I just can't seem to find a way to picture how it all works and when a test comes around I my mind blanks and crashes and I begin making mistakes all through my work.
Personally i just never found the subject to be very interesting which is why, now, in my psychology classes and other classes where we do surveys of some kind it's the data processing i dread the most. It's just basic probability and the formulas are easy enough to remember and apply but it's just way too fucking boring.
I think i just need to see some result of my calculations before i find them to be of any value, not just crunch numbers on a page from a made-up problem.
Also, i've never been one for straight answers like that. In math there is only one solution and only one way to get to the right answer which was what turned me off it at first. I like to be able to explore and question concepts with my thoughts rather than just apply them from memory.
I think i just need to see some result of my calculations before i find them to be of any value, not just crunch numbers on a page from a made-up problem.
Also, i've never been one for straight answers like that. In math there is only one solution and only one way to get to the right answer which was what turned me off it at first. I like to be able to explore and question concepts with my thoughts rather than just apply them from memory.
See, there's a lot of people in this thread talking about formulas being a problem, and it's making me wonder how many formulas people in the US are made to learn?tobi the good boy said:
I can understand if you're doing a lot of statistics, there's stuff like regression lines and correlation coefficients that you have to have a lot of formula in your head to do them, and there's a few things about probability you have to remember too.
If you're doing pure maths, there's been almost no formulas for me to learn at A level (pretty much the equivalent of High School level), there's a few different trig identities, trig rules, the quadratic equation, binomial expansion, Taylor/Maclaurin series, the newton raphson method and stuff like errors and approximation and figuring out their speed of convergence... I'm failing to come up with any more 'formulas' you need for A level pure maths, unless they're making you memorize methods/teaching you them as formulas?
Same here, I'm hoping for an A* in Further Maths, but I completely freaked out in my FP2 exam and didn't answer things I should have been able to, damn exam stressnathan-dts said:
I'm not from the US, but it's likely as you said; Methods being taught as formula's (Or I'm probably using the terms interchangeably when I shouldn't). I want to say my brain just isn't wired that way, but from what I've read in this forum that's not apparently not a valid reason or it's just an excuse. I don't know what else to say.Midgeamoo said:
Sorry I shouldn't have assumed just because you called it High Schooltobi the good boy said:
Also, I'm not saying some people wont be naturally good/bad at maths, I'm just saying I reckon most people could be good at maths if they found their own, unique way of thinking about it, one that your brain is 'wired' to understand. And that's neglected in a lot of teaching, where they teach it one way, as if it's the only way.
I'm in no way calling it an 'excuse' either, it's nobody's fault that they haven't had the opportunity to learn anything well in their early stages of education, or if they just dislike it.
I think I'm just one of those people that are just horrendously bad at maths, I've gone through so many tutors and teachers and come out just so empty... I'm sad now.Midgeamoo said:Sorry I shouldn't have assumed just because you called it High Schooltobi the good boy said:
Also, I'm not saying some people wont be naturally good/bad at maths, I'm just saying I reckon most people could be good at maths if they found their own, unique way of thinking about it, one that your brain is 'wired' to understand. And that's neglected in a lot of teaching, where they teach it one way, as if it's the only way.
I guess it's just not for you then, it's nothing to be sad abouttobi the good boy said:I think I'm just one of those people that are just horrendously bad at maths, I've gone through so many tutors and teachers and come out just so empty... I'm sad now.Midgeamoo said:Sorry I shouldn't have assumed just because you called it High Schooltobi the good boy said:
Also, I'm not saying some people wont be naturally good/bad at maths, I'm just saying I reckon most people could be good at maths if they found their own, unique way of thinking about it, one that your brain is 'wired' to understand. And that's neglected in a lot of teaching, where they teach it one way, as if it's the only way.
I just wanted to know why so many people found it so, but I guess it's harder for people to explain than I thought it would be.
I LOVE MATH! There I said that. It is probably the only subject I can take and fall asleep in and still pull an A in the class. I have done this through Calculus I through III and Differential Equations with Linear Algebra. Somehow I just know the answer and it scares me sometimes. Especially when I took Differential Equations with Linear Algebra when everyone else was missing like 10 points here and there on exams, I MISSED NONE!
As an engineering student myself (last semester, whoo hoo!), I certainly don't have any issues with disliking math; however, you're not about to find me excited about either. For the most part, math is something of a "language" to me; something I use so often that it's second nature, so I seldom consider it more than a tool. And for what I do, that's how it should be; I'm definitely good at math, but I use it as a tool for my actual interest:
Design
That's one thing about engineering, you don't really grasp what it means until you finally reach your first design course. Yes, you learn a lot leading up to it; and at the time quite a bit of it seems tangentially useful at best. Math courses in particular weren't that interesting, and the subjects they covered (namely linear algebra and differential equations) had zero use in the courses you were taking at the time; I actually learned more about math from my first fluid mechanics course than those which were purely mathmatical. Even many of the science oriented courses from the first two and a half years were mostly about analysis; interesting to learn about, but not really going anywhere.
But when that first design course hits you, it hits hard; or at least the first structural design course, which bombards you with information at a breakneck pace. A quick review of the stuff you've half-forgotten over the years, be it a specific technique or the mathmatics needed to solve the equations? No time, you'll have to re-learn it as you go. Even though the questions are very open-ended, the key is backing up the decisions you're making; where each thing goes, you have to say why you put it there. But yes, the main thing here isn't that the math serves mostly as the means of communication; you don't so much love it or hate it, you just do it.
---
I've noticed that at least one person has mentioned that quite a bit of the more complicated mathematics behind engineering are taken care of by computer programs, and that's actually quite true; still, there's a reason it's done by hand before you're allowed to use the software to solve your problems.
You have to know what the software's doing and why it's doing it.
While the results are all good, you don't really get a proper feel for it unless you do the calculations yourself. When things go wrong, you know'll what and why they did; and more importantly, you'll know how to fix it. Experience is just as important as technial knowledge, if not even moreso; be sure to get out in the field at some point, you'll be quite surprised at how much you'll learn.
Design
That's one thing about engineering, you don't really grasp what it means until you finally reach your first design course. Yes, you learn a lot leading up to it; and at the time quite a bit of it seems tangentially useful at best. Math courses in particular weren't that interesting, and the subjects they covered (namely linear algebra and differential equations) had zero use in the courses you were taking at the time; I actually learned more about math from my first fluid mechanics course than those which were purely mathmatical. Even many of the science oriented courses from the first two and a half years were mostly about analysis; interesting to learn about, but not really going anywhere.
But when that first design course hits you, it hits hard; or at least the first structural design course, which bombards you with information at a breakneck pace. A quick review of the stuff you've half-forgotten over the years, be it a specific technique or the mathmatics needed to solve the equations? No time, you'll have to re-learn it as you go. Even though the questions are very open-ended, the key is backing up the decisions you're making; where each thing goes, you have to say why you put it there. But yes, the main thing here isn't that the math serves mostly as the means of communication; you don't so much love it or hate it, you just do it.
---
I've noticed that at least one person has mentioned that quite a bit of the more complicated mathematics behind engineering are taken care of by computer programs, and that's actually quite true; still, there's a reason it's done by hand before you're allowed to use the software to solve your problems.
You have to know what the software's doing and why it's doing it.
While the results are all good, you don't really get a proper feel for it unless you do the calculations yourself. When things go wrong, you know'll what and why they did; and more importantly, you'll know how to fix it. Experience is just as important as technial knowledge, if not even moreso; be sure to get out in the field at some point, you'll be quite surprised at how much you'll learn.
Basically, it's very dry.
The interesting stuff is at the other end of the scale when its all in a cluster-fuck with (and I believe this is the technical term) ridiculous physics shit. Whilst I'd love to be able to properly understand that stuff (without having it broken down for me), I'd rather cut off my own hands then sit through any more Maths classes to get there.
The interesting stuff is at the other end of the scale when its all in a cluster-fuck with (and I believe this is the technical term) ridiculous physics shit. Whilst I'd love to be able to properly understand that stuff (without having it broken down for me), I'd rather cut off my own hands then sit through any more Maths classes to get there.
I think the OP is about right; it's the way maths is taught. It's terribly interesting in-depth, but all schools tend to do is have students stick numbers into a series of functions. The way most people learn maths is akin to memorising a bunch of flowcharts, and the only way a student could reasonably be expected to become interested in the subject is if they should happen to independently stumble across some interesting application of maths in some other way (I didn't study maths beyond A-level, but after reading The Man Who Loved Only Numbers I appreciate the subject more).
The problem as regards 'why do I need to know this', I guess, is also due to the method of teaching. Something like, say, English literature doesn't need an excuse; while students may occasionally grumble, it doesn't have anything near the reputation of maths as a subject with no real-world practicality. I think the reason is that literature doesn't frame itself as a 'real-life' subject. If you're reading Hamlet, fine. But maths textbooks often appear to be trying to convince students that they might one day need trigonometry to lean a ladder against a wall. It makes weak efforts to answer the 'why do I need this' question when it ought to abandon it altogether. Leave the emphasis on applying formulas to the science subjects and give maths more of a broad, conceptual focus.
Aside from that, some history on the subject can't fail to make it more interesting. The history of maths has an attention-grabbing cast of characters, but one has to already be interested to know anything about them. But then, I suppose plenty of teachers would love to be making their subject interesting, and already know how. But the exams are about doing sums, so we learn our flowcharts.
The problem as regards 'why do I need to know this', I guess, is also due to the method of teaching. Something like, say, English literature doesn't need an excuse; while students may occasionally grumble, it doesn't have anything near the reputation of maths as a subject with no real-world practicality. I think the reason is that literature doesn't frame itself as a 'real-life' subject. If you're reading Hamlet, fine. But maths textbooks often appear to be trying to convince students that they might one day need trigonometry to lean a ladder against a wall. It makes weak efforts to answer the 'why do I need this' question when it ought to abandon it altogether. Leave the emphasis on applying formulas to the science subjects and give maths more of a broad, conceptual focus.
Aside from that, some history on the subject can't fail to make it more interesting. The history of maths has an attention-grabbing cast of characters, but one has to already be interested to know anything about them. But then, I suppose plenty of teachers would love to be making their subject interesting, and already know how. But the exams are about doing sums, so we learn our flowcharts.
Speaking as a student, it's a pain in the ass to learn, especially when your career choice only requires you to know basic elementary-school level Math. It just feels like unnecessary busywork to me. Hell, my college requires a few Math credits for writing majors. What the fuck is the correlation? They don't force science majors to study law.
The usage of Math in the work field is highly specific. Few people need to know how to solve Matrices, or what the square root of X looks like on a graph. Some people will need this sort of information, and by all means they should be required to take these classes. For most people, it's needless busywork that they will forget as soon as school is behind them.
However, the same could be said for history classes, which I personally enjoy. In the end it's a matter of personal taste, as I know people who enjoy learning Math even though they don't need it. It's just not an accessible subject for everyone. The thing is, I love logic-based thinking and classes that make use of it. But Math just has no practical use for me, and I have zero interest in it as a subject.
Off topic: I'm really not looking to offend anyone, but I would just like to say that for whatever reason, the word "maths" really annoys me. I know it's purely cultural, but it just sounds so silly to me. In the US, the word "math" refers to every type of math, so it sounds to me like someone saying "internets". I'm not telling anyone to stop using it, or saying my culture is better then yours. I just wanted to get that off my chest.
The usage of Math in the work field is highly specific. Few people need to know how to solve Matrices, or what the square root of X looks like on a graph. Some people will need this sort of information, and by all means they should be required to take these classes. For most people, it's needless busywork that they will forget as soon as school is behind them.
However, the same could be said for history classes, which I personally enjoy. In the end it's a matter of personal taste, as I know people who enjoy learning Math even though they don't need it. It's just not an accessible subject for everyone. The thing is, I love logic-based thinking and classes that make use of it. But Math just has no practical use for me, and I have zero interest in it as a subject.
Off topic: I'm really not looking to offend anyone, but I would just like to say that for whatever reason, the word "maths" really annoys me. I know it's purely cultural, but it just sounds so silly to me. In the US, the word "math" refers to every type of math, so it sounds to me like someone saying "internets". I'm not telling anyone to stop using it, or saying my culture is better then yours. I just wanted to get that off my chest.
I dislike maths. I can't explain why.
I do find quite a few uses for it, but I still dislike it.
Even though I'm very good at raw logic, somehow I find the way mathematics is framed very difficult to process.
It's abstract, and usually presented in a way that makes it unrelatable to anything else.
It also feels very arbitrary.
I am very bad at memorising things without context.
And mathematics as it is generally presented is seriously lacking in any context.
Sure, you might get an explanation of what a particular rule is for...
But you never really seem to get any context for why the rules are the way they are, or how that was constructed or anything.
It's basically taught as:
1. This rule exists.
2. You can do this with it.
3. Remember the rule.
Which is something my mind just seems to rebel against. My mind tries to derive why rules are the way they are, yet faced with a mathematical statement there's just nothing to grasp hold of, and the rule just kind of fades out of my mind.
Also, the symbolic representation, while compact, merely reinforces the lack of context.
I studied physics for a while, and you'd typically find something like:
Ke = 1/2mv^2
written down as being meaningful somehow.
That's all well and good, but written like that you really have to concentrate on what exactly you're dealing with.
Contrast this to how I would write the same thing while creating a computer program:
KineticEnergy = 0.5 * mass * velocity^2
Same exact thing, but now the variables have identifiable names that my mind can actually relate to something without having to explicitly memorise what each and every symbol in the formula actually means...
Don't ask why that makes a difference, but it does. The more abstract and context-free the presentation of mathematics, the less able I am to understand or remember it.
I learnt how to deal with vectors quite well from programming graphics algorithms. Yet, presented in an abstract manner, I probably would have no idea what any of it meant, or what it was for.
I do find quite a few uses for it, but I still dislike it.
Even though I'm very good at raw logic, somehow I find the way mathematics is framed very difficult to process.
It's abstract, and usually presented in a way that makes it unrelatable to anything else.
It also feels very arbitrary.
I am very bad at memorising things without context.
And mathematics as it is generally presented is seriously lacking in any context.
Sure, you might get an explanation of what a particular rule is for...
But you never really seem to get any context for why the rules are the way they are, or how that was constructed or anything.
It's basically taught as:
1. This rule exists.
2. You can do this with it.
3. Remember the rule.
Which is something my mind just seems to rebel against. My mind tries to derive why rules are the way they are, yet faced with a mathematical statement there's just nothing to grasp hold of, and the rule just kind of fades out of my mind.
Also, the symbolic representation, while compact, merely reinforces the lack of context.
I studied physics for a while, and you'd typically find something like:
Ke = 1/2mv^2
written down as being meaningful somehow.
That's all well and good, but written like that you really have to concentrate on what exactly you're dealing with.
Contrast this to how I would write the same thing while creating a computer program:
KineticEnergy = 0.5 * mass * velocity^2
Same exact thing, but now the variables have identifiable names that my mind can actually relate to something without having to explicitly memorise what each and every symbol in the formula actually means...
Don't ask why that makes a difference, but it does. The more abstract and context-free the presentation of mathematics, the less able I am to understand or remember it.
I learnt how to deal with vectors quite well from programming graphics algorithms. Yet, presented in an abstract manner, I probably would have no idea what any of it meant, or what it was for.
Okay, so I know there was a lot of stuff said and unfortunately I don't really have the time or energy to read everything right now...BUT
Since this is a thread about math I had a question that's relative to my current studies. So if you will please humor me my question is:
Why does two plus two equal four, and on a side note, why does twelve multiplied by twelve equal one-hundred forty four?
OH MY BAD EDIT:
OT: From what I gather some people simply don't find math as something enjoyable in their life. Many think of it as something that needs to be done rather than something they want to do. So, if one doesn't want to do it, they probably won't do all that well in it and they probably won't enjoy doing it either.
Since this is a thread about math I had a question that's relative to my current studies. So if you will please humor me my question is:
Why does two plus two equal four, and on a side note, why does twelve multiplied by twelve equal one-hundred forty four?
OH MY BAD EDIT:
OT: From what I gather some people simply don't find math as something enjoyable in their life.
Many think of it as something that needs to be done rather than something they want to do. So, if one doesn't want to do it, they probably won't do all that well in it and they probably won't enjoy doing it either.