What's so wrong with FFXII?

[Sylveria]

I have to echo all the common complaints: The story, the characters: 2 girls, 3 trannys and a rabbit, and especially the combat. They turned it into a single play version of FFXI with autopilot.
The story is standard FF boilerplate, which is fine, but there's no real sense of immersion because its so convoluted and you never really sympathize with anyone. And if you decide to do any of the side quests, especially the hunts, it breaks the little bit of flow that they managed to hang onto.

The bad combat is especially shocking when Square Enix has Star Ocean under its belt, which has some of the better group member AI in any game I've played. It was made even worse when I got the .hack//GU games at the same time. The .hack//GU games, in my opinion, did combat like what FFXII was trying to do, and did it better. If FFXII had AI profiles like melee, caster, ranged, healer, etc. and then allowed you to fine tune and customize from there, it would have been infinitely better.
For me, the thing that killed all interest was when I'd be working through a pack of mobs and hit a group of fliers, and watch my group pointlessly hack away and not land a hit because I had "attack nearest enemy" higher than "cast whatever on flying enemy" in my gambits. And once you fix that, the combat gets dull because its just the same spells being cast over and over, there was never any variety in the combat unless you took the time out to change gambits.

Obviously, my, and a lot of people's, big gripe about FFXII was/is the combat. It was close to be great but it turned out lackluster at best. I'd like to say that FFXIII is going to improve on it, but it looks like all they did was make that into FF10 with NPC group members and a dumbed down menu.

 

[Andronicus]

Doing the hunt quests all depended on whether you could find the bastards first. Some of the higher level ones will only appear if you use certain characters, look in a specific spot, search at the right time, stuff like that, and it was all very annoying. And let's be honest; gambits were bloody useless in boss fights. I only ever used them when grinding, and even then I had to step in every now and again to point them in the right direction. I prefered to have that little bit of extra control anyway.

It's hardly as bad as you make it sound. Yes, some hunts have a few conditions to be met for the mark to appear, like it needs to be raining etc, but there's really no problem in consulting a guide if you are stuck on a specific hunt. The high end targets are certainly worth all the trouble of getting there, being probably the most brutal tactical and endurance fights in the history of the game's series, and that is because Square used a high-end raiding MMO mentality to design those fights. And yes, let's be honest, gambits were useless in boss fights? This clearly shows that you did not advance enough through the game, maybe you beat the story, but even that I doubt. Damn near half of the optional Espers in the game are gambit based fights, and try to defeat Omega Mk12 without using gambits, try to play it "old FF style", and then post a video of it and I will give you a million bucks myself .

Well, that million bucks does sound nice... But I really couldn't be bothered making a whole video of myself beating them.

Yeah, hunts are easy once you use a guide. But me, in my traditionalist ways, tried to do it without the use of walkthroughs. Colour me sentimental.

To tell the truth, it's actually been ages since I last played FFXII, so there's not much about it that I can pull out of my memory right here, right now, but I can assure you that I did beat the story, and I'm pretty sure I got most of the optional Espers as well, I know I got all the level 2 ones at least. I was never very good at finding the right combination of gambits, I'll admit; I did always have a couple programmed, but I never really trusted them all that much. I'd have to say that my playthrough would have been considerably longer than most other people's here, because most of my battles went like: pause game, input commands, start game again, pause about 3 seconds later and repeat. It gave me time to think in between moves, and I never really relied heavily on the gambits for control.

I guess it's probably about time I went back and tried to beat all the hunts. To put things into perspective, Ixion is the last hunt I can remember doing, and I'm fairly sure all my characters are still sitting in the Pharos, patiently awaiting my return. I'll have plenty of time soon, so I might end up taking another stab at it, and I might even find the patience to streamline my gambits too.

 

[Carnagath]

To put things into perspective, Ixion is the last hunt I can remember doing, and I'm fairly sure all my characters are still sitting in the Pharos, patiently awaiting my return. I'll have plenty of time soon, so I might end up taking another stab at it, and I might even find the patience to streamline my gambits too.

Ixion eh? Sounds good, you've got all the epic ones left, you quit at the worst possible time Go back and finish the job! Oh, and take a day off for Yiazmat. Took me around 9 hours to beat.

 

[Zeromaeus]

Doing the hunt quests all depended on whether you could find the bastards first. Some of the higher level ones will only appear if you use certain characters, look in a specific spot, search at the right time, stuff like that, and it was all very annoying. And let's be honest; gambits were bloody useless in boss fights. I only ever used them when grinding, and even then I had to step in every now and again to point them in the right direction. I prefered to have that little bit of extra control anyway.

It's hardly as bad as you make it sound. Yes, some hunts have a few conditions to be met for the mark to appear, like it needs to be raining etc, but there's really no problem in consulting a guide if you are stuck on a specific hunt. The high end targets are certainly worth all the trouble of getting there, being probably the most brutal tactical and endurance fights in the history of the game's series, and that is because Square used a high-end raiding MMO mentality to design those fights. And yes, let's be honest, gambits were useless in boss fights? This clearly shows that you did not advance enough through the game, maybe you beat the story, but even that I doubt. Damn near half of the optional Espers in the game are gambit based fights, and try to defeat Omega Mk12 without using gambits, try to play it "old FF style", and then post a video of it and I will give you a million bucks myself .

Well, that million bucks does sound nice... But I really couldn't be bothered making a whole video of myself beating them.

Yeah, hunts are easy once you use a guide. But me, in my traditionalist ways, tried to do it without the use of walkthroughs. Colour me sentimental.

To tell the truth, it's actually been ages since I last played FFXII, so there's not much about it that I can pull out of my memory right here, right now, but I can assure you that I did beat the story, and I'm pretty sure I got most of the optional Espers as well, I know I got all the level 2 ones at least. I was never very good at finding the right combination of gambits, I'll admit; I did always have a couple programmed, but I never really trusted them all that much. I'd have to say that my playthrough would have been considerably longer than most other people's here, because most of my battles went like: pause game, input commands, start game again, pause about 3 seconds later and repeat. It gave me time to think in between moves, and I never really relied heavily on the gambits for control.

I guess it's probably about time I went back and tried to beat all the hunts. To put things into perspective, Ixion is the last hunt I can remember doing, and I'm fairly sure all my characters are still sitting in the Pharos, patiently awaiting my return. I'll have plenty of time soon, so I might end up taking another stab at it, and I might even find the patience to streamline my gambits too.

No, see what you did was implement turn-based combat. People complain that it didn't have tur-based combat, but that's exactly what you did.

 

[Stickynote74]

It shouldn't exist

 

[Zeromaeus]

Doing the hunt quests all depended on whether you could find the bastards first. Some of the higher level ones will only appear if you use certain characters, look in a specific spot, search at the right time, stuff like that, and it was all very annoying. And let's be honest; gambits were bloody useless in boss fights. I only ever used them when grinding, and even then I had to step in every now and again to point them in the right direction. I prefered to have that little bit of extra control anyway.

It's hardly as bad as you make it sound. Yes, some hunts have a few conditions to be met for the mark to appear, like it needs to be raining etc, but there's really no problem in consulting a guide if you are stuck on a specific hunt. The high end targets are certainly worth all the trouble of getting there, being probably the most brutal tactical and endurance fights in the history of the game's series, and that is because Square used a high-end raiding MMO mentality to design those fights. And yes, let's be honest, gambits were useless in boss fights? This clearly shows that you did not advance enough through the game, maybe you beat the story, but even that I doubt. Damn near half of the optional Espers in the game are gambit based fights, and try to defeat Omega Mk12 without using gambits, try to play it "old FF style", and then post a video of it and I will give you a million bucks myself .

Well, that million bucks does sound nice... But I really couldn't be bothered making a whole video of myself beating them.

Yeah, hunts are easy once you use a guide. But me, in my traditionalist ways, tried to do it without the use of walkthroughs. Colour me sentimental.

To tell the truth, it's actually been ages since I last played FFXII, so there's not much about it that I can pull out of my memory right here, right now, but I can assure you that I did beat the story, and I'm pretty sure I got most of the optional Espers as well, I know I got all the level 2 ones at least. I was never very good at finding the right combination of gambits, I'll admit; I did always have a couple programmed, but I never really trusted them all that much. I'd have to say that my playthrough would have been considerably longer than most other people's here, because most of my battles went like: pause game, input commands, start game again, pause about 3 seconds later and repeat. It gave me time to think in between moves, and I never really relied heavily on the gambits for control.

I guess it's probably about time I went back and tried to beat all the hunts. To put things into perspective, Ixion is the last hunt I can remember doing, and I'm fairly sure all my characters are still sitting in the Pharos, patiently awaiting my return. I'll have plenty of time soon, so I might end up taking another stab at it, and I might even find the patience to streamline my gambits too.

Hold on a second why did you both pausing the game to think about your move?! Just set ATB to Wait mode! unless you mean thats what you did, I is confuzzled

Let them do what works for them.

 

[Andronicus]

Hang on a sec, just let me fire this old baby up...
*blows dust off Playstation 2 and fire's 'er up*

Yep, still hanging around the Pharos. I've got all the Espers except for 2, Ultima and Zodiark. My characters are all level 65 or thereabouts.

No, see what you did was implement turn-based combat. People complain that it didn't have tur-based combat, but that's exactly what you did.

Hehe, I like me some turn-based!

Hold on a second why did you both pausing the game to think about your move?! Just set ATB to Wait mode! unless you mean thats what you did, I is confuzzled

Yep, my ATB is set on wait, so whenever I bring my list of moves up the game pauses.

I've decided that I'm going to go back to several old games that I never got around to finishing, and Final Fantasy XII is on that list. I'm currently in the middle of playing through Morrowind, because I never really got that far into that game, but I expect FFXII shall be next.

 

[Zeromaeus]

Hang on a sec, just let me fire this old baby up...
*blows dust off Playstation 2 and fire's 'er up*

Yep, still hanging around the Pharos. I've got all the Espers except for 2, Ultima and Zodiark. My characters are all level 65 or thereabouts.

No, see what you did was implement turn-based combat. People complain that it didn't have tur-based combat, but that's exactly what you did.

Hehe, I like me some turn-based!

Hold on a second why did you both pausing the game to think about your move?! Just set ATB to Wait mode! unless you mean thats what you did, I is confuzzled

Yep, my ATB is set on wait, so whenever I bring my list of moves up the game pauses.

I've decided that I'm going to go back to several old games that I never got around to finishing, and Final Fantasy XII is on that list. I'm currently in the middle of playing through Morrowind, because I never really got that far into that game, but I expect FFXII shall be next.

I highly recommend Dark Cloud 2.

 

[Andronicus]

Hang on a sec, just let me fire this old baby up...
*blows dust off Playstation 2 and fire's 'er up*

Yep, still hanging around the Pharos. I've got all the Espers except for 2, Ultima and Zodiark. My characters are all level 65 or thereabouts.

No, see what you did was implement turn-based combat. People complain that it didn't have tur-based combat, but that's exactly what you did.

Hehe, I like me some turn-based!

Hold on a second why did you both pausing the game to think about your move?! Just set ATB to Wait mode! unless you mean thats what you did, I is confuzzled

Yep, my ATB is set on wait, so whenever I bring my list of moves up the game pauses.

I've decided that I'm going to go back to several old games that I never got around to finishing, and Final Fantasy XII is on that list. I'm currently in the middle of playing through Morrowind, because I never really got that far into that game, but I expect FFXII shall be next.

I highly recommend Dark Cloud 2.

Sorry, I've never heard of it. Is it because it's turn-based?

EDIT:
*Reads Wikipedia*
Ah, that's because it was released as Dark Chronicle in Australia. Well, I'll certainly be on the lookout for it, but hardly think another distraction would be good, as it's because of distractions like these (i.e. more games) that I never ended up finishing all these games on my list of games to finish in the first place. I'll take your recommendation into consideration, but I'm not making any promises.

 

[Mirroga]

Actually, I'm almost completely opposed to leveled enemies. Leveled enemies are the reason you can beat Oblivion without really doing anything. It also breaks the unwritten "don't go here, you'll die" rule of high level enemies in areas important to the plot. I actually found the Vault under the car shop (the on with the simulator) before I ever even talked to the bartender guy in MegaTon. That would have broke the game if I hadn't recognized the Vault number from a picture on the internet. Plus, if challenges like Omega MK 2 or Sephiroth (KH or FF) were levelled to you, they wouldn't be near as challenging as they're supposed to be. The whole challenge behing Omega is that its the only level 99 monster in existance.

What I meant was the same leveling rules that applied in FF8, that the lower level you are, the better. But instead of getting scared to even get an ounce of EXP, there should be an FF which you must plan what level you will stay so that you won't be weak enough to be minced to pieces, nor will you grind like shit to overpower everyone. The thing about FF8 is, it was challenging since every special enemy encountered gets the overall level of your party, and is then higher than that overall level.

 

[Zeromaeus]

Actually, I'm almost completely opposed to leveled enemies. Leveled enemies are the reason you can beat Oblivion without really doing anything. It also breaks the unwritten "don't go here, you'll die" rule of high level enemies in areas important to the plot. I actually found the Vault under the car shop (the on with the simulator) before I ever even talked to the bartender guy in MegaTon. That would have broke the game if I hadn't recognized the Vault number from a picture on the internet. Plus, if challenges like Omega MK 2 or Sephiroth (KH or FF) were levelled to you, they wouldn't be near as challenging as they're supposed to be. The whole challenge behing Omega is that its the only level 99 monster in existance.

What I meant was the same leveling rules that applied in FF8, that the lower level you are, the better. But instead of getting scared to even get an ounce of EXP, there should be an FF which you must plan what level you will stay so that you won't be weak enough to be minced to pieces, nor will you grind like shit to overpower everyone. The thing about FF8 is, it was challenging since every special enemy encountered gets the overall level of your party, and is then higher than that overall level.

I don't really remember that. Mostly because the whole random limit thing broke boss battles. I've beat the last boss in like 4 moves. Guess whta they were.

 

[Mirroga]

I don't really remember that. Mostly because the whole random limit thing broke boss battles. I've beat the last boss in like 4 moves. Guess whta they were.

Yeah, FF8 was notorious for having items and abilities which were broken. I just wish RPGs / JRPGs would create a leveling system which encourages you to level because of new abilities, yet discourages you for grinding too much because enemies become harder even if you level up.

 

[Korten12]

You've pointed out that "fans" seem to dislike FFXII. This is probably because it's radically different from all FFs that came before it. Keep in mind that fans are stupid and hate it when things change: see "They Changed It Now It Sucks" [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheyChangedItNowItSucks].

Critics, who are generally much smarter than fans, loved this game. A countdown of the 100 best games of all time (a few years old now but still relevant) rated it the 8th best game of all time, even though they were supposed to have no more than 1 installment per series (it came in 10 spots ahead of FFVII at #18). So the correct answer is; ignore the people who don't like it; they don't know shit about what makes a good game.

this is why.

 

[end_boss]

Ok. Alright. I get it. Most Final Fantasy fans seem to really dislike Final Fantasy XII. Why? What's so wrong with it? Why is it considered in such low regard? Seriously.

The main reason I ask is because I saw it as a rather solid Final Fantasy experience. The story was solid (even though Vaan didn't figure into it at all). The gameplay worked. Gambits were a neat feature. Hunts and side-quests were plentiful. The summons were awesome (although I missed Odin).

Seriously guys, what was wrong with Final Fantasy Twelve?

Take my post with a grain of salt. I've had a hard time getting into most JRPGs, and please don't accuse me of following Yahtzee on that. I've tried really hard to get into them and gave up well before Yahtzee posted his first Fullyramblomatic review on YouTube.

I've played about five minutes of FFXII. I've also only put in about 4 hours of FFVII, and about 2 hours of Suikoden III, just so you can put my opinion in context.

As much as I trash talk JRPG-style turn-based combat, I actually have nothing inherently against it. I really enjoyed Golden Sun (much to my surprise), I think JRPGs will never be as good as Chrono Trigger, and I even liked Phantasy Star II if they didn't throw a random encounter at me every three steps. Turn-based combat can still keep me "in the game." Especially turn-based combat like Fallout 1 and 2, X-Com, Ultima 6, etc. However, something about FFXII took me right out. Watching my character run up, take a swing, and refuse to swing again for a great length of time, forcing me to run in circles until my metre recharges? Believe it or not, that actually turned out to be a deal-breaker for me.

 

[LeonLethality]

it was awesome! amazing story, unique gameplay (its different every game that's what keeps final fantasy fresh) well rounded characters whats not to like?