What's the appeal of turn based combat?

[spikespiegel]

In an RPG, I don't see the appeal.

You do know that RPG games in general all derived from pen and paper rpgs like D&D which is TURNED-BASED

edit: what people have been saying allready about strategy, # vs button mashing ect..

Also: I love being able to controll more then one character strategicly and simply, instead of all focus on one play with everyone ells being controlled by AI. thats why F1-10 >12,13.
Without that you loose the aspect of party.
I liked Tales of SYmphonias system, but it all just ended up being button mashing. I would have loved if it was turned based.

Also, turned based doesn't allways have to stay the same.
Lost odessy and Shadow hearts have both mixed it up with added functions, and enviromental influences like in FFX (where you could use your surroundings to affect the battle) and character unique combos like in chrono trigger, FFIX (VivixSteiner) and Suikoden V could and SHOULD be explored more..

 

[FinalHeart95]

I see plenty of people claiming it's more strategic. I honestly have no idea how they could back this up.

Even the humble FPS is more strategically interesting - the difference between shotguns/SMGs/assault rifles/sniper rifles/grenades creates more real tactical variety than all the samey fire/lightning/attack/whatever options (which are all basically the same except for the animation and the arbitrary weakness it targets) in turn based JRPGs. Then compound that with all the considerations of terrain, cover, range, movement, positioning, flanking, suprise and stealth and it's totally clear to me that even your average shooter is more strategic than turn based combat.

Or consider real time with pause systems as exemplified by DA:O. The skill options are every bit as strategic as a turn based combat, you can pause to think any time you want, and terrain and positioning (using chokepoints and LOS) actually make a big difference, unlike many turn based systems. It's easily just as strategic, but it's faster and flows better and is more immersive.

You still have to remember what attacks are the most effective against what enemies. In the case of FFXIII, it's more what paradigms are more effective, rather than which attacks.

Doing the same thing over and over again will not work against different kinds of enemies, unless you are fighting extremely weak enemies.

 

[NeutralDrow]

So, all of you JRPG fans, explain to me why I should get into JRPGs.

This is why.

vid

what the hell did I just see?

You just saw an optional battle from Tales of the Abyss where you fight against a slow-moving but very powerful boss. Specifically, you saw a battle where the player controlled the party's "black mage" equivalent, while leaving the CPU to control two meatshields front-line fighters and a support character who had her hands full with keeping them alive.

I guess I could see the appeal of this approach (controlling Jade meant that player could easily take advantage of all those magic fields and use more powerful spells), though I personally prefer controlling a frontliner, or the archer/support character, who wasn't in that fight.

Like I told the other guy, it probably wasn't the best video I could have used. I like pointing out Tales of the Abyss in these threads because the Tales series has had realtime combat from the beginning, and Abyss was the first game to introduce fully controllable 3D movement (rather than linear movement based on who you're targeting).

Spoiler: This might have been better.

Similar boss (you can find and fight it up to three times), and the two players are usually controlling the frontliners. Not an especially representative fight of the game (the Sword Dancers are the ultimate "sluggish but strong" enemies), but it does show off the engine.

 

[Hollywood Knights]

Turn based combat is not strictly a JRPG thing. Heroes of might and magic for example use turn based combat, and it works like a charm.

Heroes 3 is one of my all time favorite games.

I'd second that, I've been getting into Heroes 3 of late and it's pure class.

Turn-based combat is an acquired taste, but you DO acquire it.

 

[CmdrGoob]

I see plenty of people claiming it's more strategic. I honestly have no idea how they could back this up.

Even the humble FPS is more strategically interesting - the difference between shotguns/SMGs/assault rifles/sniper rifles/grenades creates more real tactical variety than all the samey fire/lightning/attack/whatever options (which are all basically the same except for the animation and the arbitrary weakness it targets) in turn based JRPGs. Then compound that with all the considerations of terrain, cover, range, movement, positioning, flanking, suprise and stealth and it's totally clear to me that even your average shooter is more strategic than turn based combat.

Or consider real time with pause systems as exemplified by DA:O. The skill options are every bit as strategic as a turn based combat, you can pause to think any time you want, and terrain and positioning (using chokepoints and LOS) actually make a big difference, unlike many turn based systems. It's easily just as strategic, but it's faster and flows better and is more immersive.

You still have to remember what attacks are the most effective against what enemies. In the case of FFXIII, it's more what paradigms are more effective, rather than which attacks.

Doing the same thing over and over again will not work against different kinds of enemies, unless you are fighting extremely weak enemies.

Remembering what attacks are most effective on what enemies usually isn't that strategic, though. I think of it the 'square peg goes in square hole' level of strategy, and it usually doesn't provide much real depth (hence the name).

Again, not that there's no strategy there, but as far as I can see there's not any more strategy that in present in all sorts of other genres so I fail to see how it's an advantage for turn based combat.

 

[FinalHeart95]

I see plenty of people claiming it's more strategic. I honestly have no idea how they could back this up.

Even the humble FPS is more strategically interesting - the difference between shotguns/SMGs/assault rifles/sniper rifles/grenades creates more real tactical variety than all the samey fire/lightning/attack/whatever options (which are all basically the same except for the animation and the arbitrary weakness it targets) in turn based JRPGs. Then compound that with all the considerations of terrain, cover, range, movement, positioning, flanking, suprise and stealth and it's totally clear to me that even your average shooter is more strategic than turn based combat.

Or consider real time with pause systems as exemplified by DA:O. The skill options are every bit as strategic as a turn based combat, you can pause to think any time you want, and terrain and positioning (using chokepoints and LOS) actually make a big difference, unlike many turn based systems. It's easily just as strategic, but it's faster and flows better and is more immersive.

You still have to remember what attacks are the most effective against what enemies. In the case of FFXIII, it's more what paradigms are more effective, rather than which attacks.

Doing the same thing over and over again will not work against different kinds of enemies, unless you are fighting extremely weak enemies.

Remembering what attacks are most effective on what enemies usually isn't that strategic, though. I think of it the 'square peg goes in square hole' level of strategy, and it usually doesn't provide much real depth (hence the name).

Again, not that there's no strategy there, but as far as I can see there's not any more strategy that in present in all sorts of other genres so I fail to see how it's an advantage for turn based combat.

Oh, I see what you mean. I took it as you saying that it was completely devoid of strategy. Which, to be honest, is kind of correct for your average enemy. There is some need for strategy with bosses though, mainly because you don't already know what to do.

This being said, there really isn't that much strategy in an FPS either. As far as choices of guns, it's the same "square peg in square hole" that you talked about, then it's simply "shoot and hide when your health is low", maybe throwing a grenade into a group of enemies. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

 

[carpenter20m]

I think today's question was inspired by my topic. I feel so proud!

But nonetheless, good arguments on all sides. I promise to try a turn based game, preferably one of those you recommended. But I don't promise to like it.