As far as I am aware, 'most' anime do not feature rape at all, even in implication. As far as I can tell, most of the examples you've listed are either M rated or 15+ (I don't know what they'd call that in America). There are a lot of anime and manga which are aimed at younger children which don't feature rape, there are a lot of anime and managa aimed at older readers which don't feature rape as well, you just seem to have this very specific number which do.
It would be like exclusively reading the works of Garth Ennis and Mark Millar, then asking why 'most' western comics are obsessed with rape and castration. Or only watching Tarantino and Rodriguez movies and asking why 'most' western films are obsessed with, well rape and castration.
You have too small a reference pool to use the word most, I've only seen one anime/manga that used rape needlessly, and that's Hellsing. Elfen Lied, Priest, Life, Confidential Confessions, and many more make use of rape, but it's as part of the story, and without it the characters would have less to them. I haven't read or seen any of your other examples so I couldn't comment, but that I can draw up an equal number that use it as part of the story and could think of a lot more that don't use rape at all I think this is just a case of too small a reference pool.
Yeah, I missed it too. I looked it up and this is what I found. (Spoilers for those who haven't seen the movie.)
Ed and Ein head out to track down the hacker. They find him and call in Faye. They get distracted and leave, so Faye shows up and doesn't know where to go. Vincent is playing solitaire again, and when Lee shows up, Vincent shoots the last bead on his board. "Only one can win." Lee breaks the window as he chokes to death on the virus, and Faye runs up to him. "Press my reset button," he says, dying. Faye also gets woosy from the virus and sees golden butterflies. Vincent returns and she shoots him, and he tastes his blood. He then leans down over her apparently to rape her, as the screen fades away.
Well actually I just watched the scene and what happened was...
After Lee dies Faye starts seeing butterflies. When Vincent comes in, she shoots him in the hand as he grabs her gun. Then he licks his hand and as Faye tries to stumble away, he forces her own onto the table and kisses her full on the lips. Then it cuts to a shot of the beads on the floor while we here Faye gasping. I think all he actually did was transfer the anti-nano-machines in his blood to her, since she survives being exposed to the virus. When we see Faye again tied up on the floor she's quite calm and collected and asking Vincent about his past. I seriously doubt rape was supposed to have occurred in the intervening time. But that's just my opinion.
No, no. I totally agree with your opinion (it's actually what I thought). I doubt it happened too, but I was just saying it was "implied" because some people online were the ones saying so. I think it's pretty crazy though. All evidence shows otherwise, but hey. If they want to think that, I guess they should go ahead.
*watches episode 4 of Hellsing Ultimate*
Wow, wait, so THAT'S what happened in Victoria's past? ...Really?
..
..WHAT THE FUCK, MAN?! That wasn't nessecary at all! Are you serious?! And what's with the-
*groans*
This is why I stick with the original series and don't give a shit about the "filler villain ending".
...But I Spit on Your Grave is horrendous to me and awful and a grotesque piece of cinema. I've watched it. It's fucking awful in my opinion. Like I said about Irreversible's scene, I do not need an elongated scene of rape to A) know they were raped, B) side with the victims as they hunt the rapist, and C) feel release (or cheer, pretty much) when the rapist gets his or her comeuppance. I especially don't need, like, five of the fucking things.
Not saying you like the film, and not saying anyone who does is a bad person or something. The revenge kills are just fine for a revenge flick. Just...did we need a 45min rape scene interspersed with running, crying, beating and screaming? Really?
You have an point and I won't dispute it too heavily. But I remember when Paul Verhoven got called up for putting the 'tasteless' rape scene in Showgirls and his response was pretty much 'I find the idea that you can or should film a 'tasteful' rape scene incredibly offensive'.
While there are huge issues with showing such things, way too huge for me to even begin to cover, I'm not sure the 'fade to black' is any less problematic. It resolves things too easily, it lets the audience maintain their comfort zone and thus ensures their narrative pleasure. The things which happen in these horrible rape scenes actually happen. It's a horrible experience and the people involved don't have the luxury of a camera cutting away and exempting them from involvement, why should an audience?
One of the biggest problems I have with mainstream cinema (including most anime, in its own way) is its unwillingness to break the pleasure principle. As a culture, we've got too used to cinema catering to our comfort and fantasies in the name of resolution and narrative pleasure. That's not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes you want to just walk into a film and not have it shove things in your face, but when we've got to the point of saying 'rape scenes could/should be easier to watch' I start to feel a bit incredulous.
This is not to say that showing more is automatically better than showing less in all situations everywhere. That shower scene in Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho for example is genius in that it shows almost nothing but still manages to give a perfect impression of what has happened and to give it emotional context. Michael Haneke's Funny Games is one of my favourite movies of all time and it deliberately shows absolutely no violence at all. But here's the thing.. both these films manage to be disturbing and upsetting. They use cutting away for something more than sparing the audience from having to witness anything upsetting. When you're describing horrible things like rape in visual media, I think you have a responsibility which goes beyond responsibility to the audience not to downplay or minimize those things so that the audience doesn't have to feel challenged or disturbed or upset. Refusing to cut away is a very underused tool in these cases.
I can't really find much to argue with (you certainly have points I hadn't thought of...and other people have made some of my own points better than I did), so with apologies, I'll respond only to some things.
Ian Caronia said:
NeutralDrow said:
Either you're reading the wrong porn, or you have the commendable opinion that enough story and character development reverses the "porn" label, regardless of the presence of erotic material. I actually kinda hope it's the latter.
Don't worry, it is. I consider a story that has even a lot of sex in it more erotica than porn if the story is well told and the characters are well written. ...And they do more than fuck, of course.
Ever play any eroge visual novels? I've found some <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.135672-Neutral-Drow-reviews-A-Drug-That-Makes-You-Dream>pretty damn good ones that <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.206764-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Kana-Little-Sister>fit those standards.
I was talking specifically about series that one would not expect rape, like the Count of Monte Cristo. That rape scene came from NOWHERE and contributed NOTHING to the plot. As you can imagine, I raged hard.
...I admit, it's been years since I've read the book (and I've never watched Gankutsuou), and I don't remember too much, but I'm not sure I would have put it past Dantes to involve that in his revenge scheme somehow.
And no, I haven't written off any story or genre that uses it. I write off stories that use it poorly and wrongly.
Actually, I was referring to you automatically writing off hentai and other porn for purposes of this discussion. Those are the only titles I've seen use rape as "twisted fanservice."
Well, if what you say is true then...
...Well fuck, man! I was eleven! XD lol I feel like the maker of Earthbound.
"Wait...so that wasn't a violent rape? ...Oh. ...THESE LAST TEN YEARS OF MY LIFE HAVE BEEN A LIIEEE!!"
Don't worry about it. Truth be told, I had that exact misconception about one of the TV episodes ("Jupiter Jazz," I think) until someone set me straight, and I think I had even less justification for it... >_>
Hope you don't feel offended by any of my responses, mate. Didn't mean to make it seem that way, if it came off as such. : )
Nah, not at all. You haven't called me an idiot even once, or even implied that you wanted to. I call any internet argument where that doesn't happen perfectly respectful!
I can't really find much to argue with (you certainly have points I hadn't thought of...and other people have made some of my own points better than I did), so with apologies, I'll respond only to some things.
*SNIP*
Hope you don't feel offended by any of my responses, mate. Didn't mean to make it seem that way, if it came off as such. : )
Nah, not at all. You haven't called me an idiot even once, or even implied that you wanted to. I call any internet argument where that doesn't happen perfectly respectful!
Well thank you, NeutralDrow! And to be honest I don't see anything you should apologize for. You've been pretty respectful yourself and contributed nicely to the thread. : )
Just to close off, I did write off hentai to some degree, but only the bluntly hardcore plotless, or really nasty porn. Like I said, I consider erotica a great read if it's well done and interesting. Hell, that's what most romance novels are anyway. Oh, and I had wanted to play some eroge visual novels! But I can't find any that work on my PC without special translating software or something : /
_And I loved the Count of Monte Cristo when I was younger. Read it twice. Sadly, like you, I can't remember much, but I'm positive there was no rape, especially no rape that happens at the end of one chapter (episode for the show) then is almost totally inconsequential and barely even mentioned in the next (I literally had to get up and walk around my place to work off the sheer rage over it). Just like I'm sure the main character and the Count never had a homoerotic undertones thing going on that resulted in them kissing as he died. (Honestly, the animation is astounding but they really look liberties with the story).
_And I'm glad I'm not alone with the misconception thing! At least I can breathe easier knowing my favorite female character aside from Louis Lane growing up never got raped for no reason.
The hell is it with all the rape? And I mean, meaningless rape. Like rapings that can be completely omitted, and with a little re-writing you wouldn't even know the difference!
WARNING: actual correct answer to the question follows. Read with caution.
The roots of sexual violence in anime lie in Japan's misogynist culture, and you'll find that anime is not the only type of Japanese media where rape, sexual assault and perversion appears frequently. Japan has long been a country where women are regarded as second-class citizens - until very recently. The idea of women's rights and emancipation in Japan is newer and it happened over there in a much quicker period of time than it did in the west. Within a very short timeframe, women went from people with few rights to achieving basically the same level of freedom that women in western countries also enjoy.
Of course, you don't have a massive and sudden social change like that without a few knock-on effects. Some older Japanese men resented having their power taken away, and some younger men, especially those hitting puberty who might also have a bit of a domination kink, also felt cheated due to a perception that social changes robbed them of the lifestyle and power that their elders enjoyed. Their anger doesn't really have a legitimate surface outlet (because it's based on maintaining a system of inequality), so it instead goes underground and affects culture. Hence Japan's cultural products are often brazenly misogynist, expressing the gender schism through fantasy and representational media in ways that aren't acceptable in the real world. Anime is no exception to this, and almost all anime is very much informed by this cultural shift, but anime is far from the only culprit. (One of the main reasons why Miyazaki became so huge and crossed over to western markets so well is because his work (mostly) doesn't have this quality.) Japan also has reality TV shows that revolve around sexual assault, for example, and I'm sure people who have watched a lot of Japanese porn have noticed that the women usually seem to act like they're in pain rather than enjoying themselves, once again that's acted out to cater to the whole male power thing that's more relevant over there, at least to perverts.
In summary, it's not an anime thing, it's a Japan thing. You might notice that most mainstream western films dealing with rape or showing lengthy depictions of rape and female cruelty were made during the 70s and 80s, it's basically for the same reason as these were the decades where women's rights made the biggest strides in terms of legislation in the west, what's you're seeing in the films of that era is the cultural fallout. Anyone who's seen both versions of I Spit On Your Grave will notice that the newer version has a lot more focus on the "revenge" part than the 70s original, that's because those tides have settled in the west somewhat so a modern audience wants more balance - a "rape/revenge" film done 70s style these days would seem boring and immature, so those films are not made anymore, at least, not in the same way.
Well, of the ones I've played so far (those are just two...though two of the best, admittedly), seven have actually been official English releases that don't require extra software, including those two. For most of the others, all that's been required for me were the fan-translation patches, and some patches (like Mirror Moon's of <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.128851-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Tsukihime>Tsukihime and <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.223721-TYPE-MOON-Review-anniversary-Fate-Stay-Night>Fate/Stay Night) actually run the installer for you. I've only come across a few that require more...arcane, I could say, methods, so far.
If you're interested in recommendations or installation aid, I'd (or <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Visual-Novels>the group would) be glad to help.
I think it's supposed to be the penultimate depiction of depravity for the villain it focuses on and/or a clear way to get something 'dark' into characters' stories. Something to at once both spur them forward, and hold them back. Any other reason is is a good indicator of h.
You have an point and I won't dispute it too heavily. But I remember when Paul Verhoven got called up for putting the 'tasteless' rape scene in Showgirls and his response was pretty much 'I find the idea that you can or should film a 'tasteful' rape scene incredibly offensive'. Now, even I
While there are huge issues with showing such things, way too huge for me to even begin to cover, I'm not sure the 'fade to black' is any less problematic. It resolves things too easily, it lets the audience maintain their comfort zone and thus ensures their narrative pleasure. The things which happen in these horrible rape scenes actually happen. It's a horrible experience and the people involved don't have the luxury of a camera cutting away and exempting them from involvement, why should an audience?
*SNIP*
Ah! EXCELLENT point, evilthecat! And here's where the blessing of good writing comes in.
You are absolutely right. Cutting away does take away the cruel reality of what's going on, and it does indeed leave the audience in a (though awkward) somewhat still stable comfort zone since they know the comeuppance is now one scene closer.
However!
_This is why I spoke down about most rape revenge films. They don't take time to develop their characters, which is a crime of the most grievous kind when it comes to the protagonist. If it's a rape revenge film or not, the most important thing is to get your audience to like, admire, and relate to the protagonist of your story. Take your time, yes, but also fill it with how that character lives and thinks. Show them with their friends. Show them on their own, reading a book or studying a subject that puts a smile on their face. Give the audience a personal connection to the protagonist, and eventually they'll find themselves rooting for them even if they choose between paper or plastic.
Make it interesting, and make it intimate.
_Once this is accomplished, any bad thing that happens to them makes the audience sink in their seats. They'll feel frightened when the MC is being mugged! They'll feel anxious when the MC hears footsteps echoing out of sync with hers. Some will be so immersed they'll have no choice but to grit their teeth or clench their fist because the tension is so overwhelming. Then, at that point, pull the trigger.
You don't need the detailed depiction of a rape at all. You can even get away with cutting before the rapist cuts off/takes off her bra! It's all about how close the audience feels to the character. That's where the impact lies.
_Yet, like most modern horror movies, those in charge of the revenge films (and even writers of revenge novels) feel they/flat out don't have enough talent and patience to set out time for the audience to connect with the protagonist. They probably think people will get bored, or they get bored themselves, so they resort to the generic victim tropes. "Impact? Okay, female. Needs more impact? Young; late teens or early twenties. Needs more impact? Loves her parents a whole bunch and she's pretty. Have her giggle a few times." Really, it's sickening. What are her aspirations? Who is she as a real person? If the writer can't answer that, or if the answer is a grossly generic "She likes things and likes eating cupcakes and wuvs being not raped" then the writer can take his schlock and peddle it to the same people who think mindless slashers are the epitome or horror and thriller genres.
_Which bring us to the other reason why most protagonists are underdeveloped: The writer or directer feels like they don't need to give any intimacy between the audience and the protagonist since "Hey, what we came for is the revenge kills, baby!"
Then we have the worst cases, to me anyway. The cases where the writer and director actually do manage to make us feel for the protagonist in more than just a sympathetic "adorable/poor puppy" way prior to the rape. Yet, for some ungodly reason, they feel the need to make the rape as detailed and gruesome as possible. Personally I say those writers can fuck themselves. All that does is instill rage in the audience, and not the good kind. We already feel like we're being attacked ourselves, we don't need this whole thing to play out just because you think it's fucking artsy or have some bullshit "social point" to it!
*clears throat*
Anyway, this in turn leads us back to the OT: That the intimacy for the protagonist is already there since we love these characters (I love Casca and Alucard and the protagonist's lover in Gankutsuou), but it's grossly disregarded to have a rape in the first place. And why? It's not always part of the story, and even when it is it still doesn't need to happen.
If you are thinking of using rape, try to find another way. If you can't, if you seriously cannot (and when magic and demons are abound the possibilities are endless so no, it doesn't need to, [insert Berserk author's name here]), then do it right. There is no such thing as tasteful rape, but there is such a thing as unnecessary rape.
One that depicts a friendship the audience cares for, a protagonist and a friend they relate to. Then one friend attacks the other, only to leave out of what seems to be fear of getting caught. After a short time devoted to depression and unending emotional pain, that friend goes after the one who betrayed them in the worst way.
We cared for both these characters. We felt for each of them. Then, our care is turned upside-down when the one we felt for betrays not just the protagonist, but us as well. Now we want his head just like the protagonist.
_But the piece that makes a good revenge film is this: in the end, after the protagonist has done whatever they set out to do to the traitor (shoot, torture, whatever), the truth is revealed. Silently, something visual tells why he betrayed her (scraps of writing, several pictures, etc.). IN the end the traitor was madly in love with the friend, but knew she would never fall for him. After he broke and attacked her, he fled in shame and had been living in hell over what he'd done ever since.
The revenge is complete, but somewhat empty. As it should be.
...Of course that's just me, though. It wouldn't be the most empowering film or story for it to end that way since the feeling of being on top would quickly fall back onto the audience and make them ashamed of what they had done vicariously through the protagonist. Kind of a double edged sword, really.
Perfect revenge film like this is a classic foreign starring Peter Lorey called: Mark of M
In it an entire town rallies together to hunt down a serial pedophile who's been kidnapping, raping, and killing children. I won't spoil the end, but I'll tell you it really confused my morality meter.
The hell is it with all the rape? And I mean, meaningless rape. Like rapings that can be completely omitted, and with a little re-writing you wouldn't even know the diffeence!
WARNING: actual correct answer to the question follows. Read with caution.
*SNIP*
In summary, it's not an anime thing, it's a Japan thing. You might notice that most mainstream western films dealing with rape or showing lengthy depictions of rape and female cruelty were made during the 70s and 80s, it's basically for the same reason as these were the decades where women's rights made the biggest strides in terms of legislation in the west, what's you're seeing in the films of that era is the cultural fallout. Anyone who's seen both versions of I Spit On Your Grave will notice that the newer version has a lot more focus on the "revenge" part than the 70s original, that's because those tides have settled in the west somewhat so a modern audience wants more balance - a "rape/revenge" film done 70s style these days would seem boring and immature, so those films are not made anymore, at least, not in the same way.
I've wanted to avoid this view ever since I first saw someone briefly explain something similar. I thought it might be somewhat ignorant of me to believe it was a cultural thing. However, after all the responses that say this, and after what you've explained (and how eloquently you explained it) BonsaiK, I think that's the final and ultimate conclusion: Misogynistic fanservice as a result of cultural fallout
Why is it infecting our shows and abusing characters we adore? Sometimes it's lazy writing, but more often it's because of that conclusion and everything around it. Like when whatshisface in Evagelon fell on top of Rei and his hand clutched her bare breast for no particular reason (by accident), these rapes are fanservice that, very possibly, are a means to "ballance out" the overwhelming change in Japan's societ-
OH! Then this also explains why the Japanese populace seem to be sexually divided! This can also explain, in some way, the low birth rate, and maybe why people keep electing old politicians! A lot of things are making sense now...
I've read online in over twenty forums now what others say to the rape scenes I've mentioned and those like them (even the misconception of rape in the Cowboy Bebop movie). The responses are as follows:
"Faye Valentine gets raped in the CB movie? Fapfapfapfapfap"
"[The rape in Hellsing Ultimate Ep4] Was good :3"
Between the, frankly, fucked up idea of enjoying these kinds of needlessly cruel scenes and the cultural explanation, I think we really have found our answer.
...And, to some degree, I kind of wish we hadn't. V_V
Though, if we compare the cultural movement between such countries, maybe there's hope this trend of needless rape will die out in the future (or, in the US's case, fizzle down to a minimum).
The hell is it with all the rape? And I mean, meaningless rape. Like rapings that can be completely omitted, and with a little re-writing you wouldn't even know the diffeence!
WARNING: actual correct answer to the question follows. Read with caution.
*SNIP*
In summary, it's not an anime thing, it's a Japan thing. You might notice that most mainstream western films dealing with rape or showing lengthy depictions of rape and female cruelty were made during the 70s and 80s, it's basically for the same reason as these were the decades where women's rights made the biggest strides in terms of legislation in the west, what's you're seeing in the films of that era is the cultural fallout. Anyone who's seen both versions of I Spit On Your Grave will notice that the newer version has a lot more focus on the "revenge" part than the 70s original, that's because those tides have settled in the west somewhat so a modern audience wants more balance - a "rape/revenge" film done 70s style these days would seem boring and immature, so those films are not made anymore, at least, not in the same way.
I've wanted to avoid this view ever since I first saw someone briefly explain something similar. I thought it might be somewhat ignorant of me to believe it was a cultural thing. However, after all the responses that say this, and after what you've explained (and how eloquently you explained it) BonsaiK, I think that's the final and ultimate conclusion: Misogynistic fanservice as a result of cultural fallout
Why is it infecting our shows and abusing characters we adore? Sometimes it's lazy writing, but more often it's because of that conclusion and everything around it. Like when whatshisface in Evagelon fell on top of Rei and his hand clutched her bare breast for no particular reason (by accident), these rapes are fanservice that, very possibly, are a means to "ballance out" the overwhelming change in Japan's societ-
OH! Then this also explains why the Japanese populace seem to be sexually divided! This can also explain, in some way, the low birth rate, and maybe why people keep electing old politicians! A lot of things are making sense now...
I've read online in over twenty forums now what others say to the rape scenes I've mentioned and those like them (even the misconception of rape in the Cowboy Bebop movie). The responses are as follows:
"Faye Valentine gets raped in the CB movie? Fapfapfapfapfap"
"[The rape in Hellsing Ultimate Ep4] Was good :3"
Between the, frankly, fucked up idea of enjoying these kinds of needlessly cruel scenes and the cultural explanation, I think we really have found our answer.
...And, to some degree, I kind of wish we hadn't. V_V
Though, if we compare the cultural movement between such countries, maybe there's hope this trend of needless rape will die out in the future (or, in the US's case, fizzle down to a minimum).
It will. Give it a generation or two and things will change in Japan, like they have elsewhere when this type of shift has taken place. Most Japanese people do in fact have a sense of all the things I've pointed out, and do actually want media to move forward into more balanced representations, hence all the recent anti-pervert legislation etc - Japanese largely recognise the fallout for what it is, and acknowledge that a portion of their media is going though a kind of gender representation adolescence. Apart from mainstream stuff like Gundam, and the Miyazaki stuff, Amine really is looked at over there very differently because of this. That's why a lot of Japanese people have an extremely low opinion of westerners who are into Anime, and why they're even more appalled when westerners who are into it start calling themselves "otaku" and "hikkimori" like badges of honour. That, to mainstream Japanese people, is the absolute height of creepiness and proof to them that some western people are in fact completely insane. It really makes them facepalm and think "oh my god", it certainly contributes to the frequent perception in Japan of westerners as stupid gaijin. They look at hardcore western anime fans like we look at that Korean guy who married his love-doll.
So yeah, I'll try not to ramble, and right off the bat there will/can be spoilers here since we are talking about stories and specific incidents. You've been warned.
I love anime, specifically anime around 90's (give or take a few series that began in the 80's and 2000's). I loved Dragon Ball/Z on Toonami, COWBOY BEBOP BABY!, Big O (first season only), Gundam Wing, Hellsing, Fist of the North STATATAAr, and hell, I even wanted to check out this series called Code Geas (Gease? Geass?) because it's supposed to be a very stark glimpse at a mecha-filled future's politics...but with mechs and shooting :3 (from what I heard).
_Point is, I'm not some raging douche making a rant thread about rape in stories. I give almost every anime a chance, and while post-2000 anime seem to be mainly depressing or S.O.L moe (Just not my kinda thing really), I found a horrific trend that's been eating at me for a looong~ time...
The hell is it with all the rape? And I mean, meaningless rape. Like rapings that can be completely omitted, and with a little re-writing you wouldn't even know the difference!
Examples:
Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo
Gantz (from what I hear of the manga)
Berserk
The Cowboy Bebop Movie
Hellsing (well, pre-Hellsing actually... Unless it happens in the manga too)
I want you to know that yes, I do realize Guts's backstory (berserk) is actually well implemented with who he is and how he reacts with Casca, and I applaud the author for creating what I consider a golden example of how using rape in a story should and/or can be done well(though I really didn't need the panels depicting it...ugh). I also know a bit about that thing that happened with Seras Victoria's past, and from what I hear it's well implemented also (in the least it sheds light on a phobia many would be quick to make fun of...like other animes do).
_I'm talking about useless, needles rape. Casca? Faye Valentine?! ALUCARD?!
The list here is just of animes I know a lot of folk know about and would/could be willing to comment on. They are also perfect examples of what I'm talking about (Gantz is recommended by a friend, actually, only saw the anime). Berserk is a series that's actually made fun of for two things: 1. Having an author (or mangaka) that takes forever to make the next installment and 2. everybody was, is, or shall be raped at some point.
Look, I'm not bashing on the animes listed. Seriously, I'm not. That's not my intention at all. My hate for that scene in the Bebop Movie is detached from this, as is my desdain for that scene in the anime of Count of Monte Cristo. I'm just looking for others' opinions on this. Not all anime do this, and because it's done doesn't mean the rest of the anime, or even all anime, is bad. As I said, my best friend really likes reading what the series of Berserk is up to despite what happened...and what happened after... O_O
I mean, just look at the "revenge flick" genre, and in the West! "I Spit On Your Grave" is a perfect example of even entire stories/movies/what have you that shouldn't and don't need to exist. And yeah, that's worse than a single scene in an anime to me.
But this isn't about that. This is about anime.
My opinion on the subject is that your overreacting. Basically your argueing that something should be written around entirely because it's "wrong" and that's political correctness at it's finest and the very attitude that is destroying a lot of media today.
Generally speaking I don't think this aspect of things is a matter of "that's what pervy Japanese guys must think about" so much as the Japanese generally don't care as much about being politically correct and pulling punches.
Saying rape is unnessicary is like saying the sky is blue, but that doesn't change the fact that it's realistic, what happens to hawt babes when they get overpowered by scumbags IRL? Well let's just say the scumbags don't wind up buying the ladies ice cream cones. Ever heard the chant "we RAPE, we pillage, we plunder" in association with pirates?
Also remember that what we think now isn't what people thought at other times in history. Rape was viewed as just something you did through a lot of history. It was manly, and part of being a warrior, and so on. In many cases rape DOES serve a purpose in illustrating alternative morality, or the nature of the world the characters exist in compared to what we deal with today... societal niceties being stripped away.
It's also important to note, that not everyone is all good or all bad by current morality. Today's political correctness mandates that a rapist has to be a reprehensible person overall. That's not nessicarly true, people can be extremely complex. Someone like a norse or greek hero might very well be a casual rapist, but also be willing to lay down his life for his own people/women and children, and save the world monday through friday and twice on sundays. Novel series like "Gor"... which for all the criticisms had like 20 installments making it one of the longest running and most successful series, had this kind of thing as a major theme. The entire series was all about... let's just say very alternative gender politics to what you see today. The protaganists, guys like Tarl Cabot and Jason Marshall wound up rebelling against the world's standards for a while being from the 20th century befor embracing them. Despite everything you can say about their anti-feminist attitudes these guys wound up doing all kinds of heroic things including saving the planet, and even the universe against the "others" on behalf of the Priest Kings.
I'll also be quite blunt in saying that a lot of the outcry is also based around the false pretension that women are somehow deeply offended by this stuff. That's *hardly* the case and a lot of them are actually worse when it comes to the rape garbage than guys are, either being especially cruel to other women in their portrayals, or kind of getting off on the fantasy of the entire thing. Take a stroll through the Harlequin romance section some time and take note of the number of women in rather submissive positions to these big, beefy, fabio types. The differance between "raped" and "ravished" is pretty much non-existant. I mean these paranormal romance novels are full of what amounts to the violent conquest of women (and a lot of these are written by women) it's just that the Vampire or Werewolf Alpha is some super stud.
The point I'm getting at is that there is no reason to be over protective. In general when there is a nasty rape it's done to set tone, generate rage, or simply to establish that conventional morality does not apply to the setting as a whole, by way of making a point that characters who DO maintain something akin to modern ethics are unusual. A girl getting gang raped in an alleyway and having people act like it's no big deal can be intended so it stands out when Joe Hero happens by and gets all upset about this, and also explains why say the entire town might wind up rallying against him for getting involved, rather than going "three cheers for the hero who beats down rape gangs".
This is to say nothing of submission erotica, which is the intent to a lot of this garbage as well. It's not a lot of people's cup of tea, so they don't get it, however there is a reason why in certain books or stories you might have entire chapters, or 15 minute long blocks, dedicated to a lot of heavy breathing as count studdly forces his will on the
hapless babe (which might not even involve any overt sex, and thus will seem especially pointless to someone who doesn't really get it).
Apologies if I come on a bit strong, and I know many people are going to disagree with me, but in general I tend to feel this is no big deal as long as people understand the differance between fantasy, and storytelling, as opposed to reality. If you find something tastless, by all means avoid it personally, but don't rail about the very existance of things that don't make pretensions of being politically correct.
To be honest I'm not familiar with EVERY Anime (even some of those mentioned here), or story, so I can't put everything into context all the time, but typically when you see something like a rape, even in Anime, there is a purpose, even if it's just setting mood.
I'll also say that in a lot of those rape movies and games and such, you'll notice something... the guys involved in the rape are typically not all that unattractive. In most cases even if the faces are, even the fat "man pigs" tend to have some rather nice muscle definition. You might not really "get" that not being the target audience, but ummm, there are a lot of women who have fantasies about that kind of thing.
Now in terms of HORROR it's a bit differant, pulling out Anime like say "Aventure Kid" with girls being held down and ravished by zombies with exposed brains and such, understand the entire POINT is that it's supposed to be revolting. If you sit there and go "OMG, this is just so wrong I can't belive someone would animate that" then that means the guys doing the animation deserve a cookie, because they acheived their objective. That's why it's called "horror". I point this out because a lot of people who claim to be horror fans really don't want to be shocked, disgusted, or scared, and thus really aren't looking for actual horror. With less political correctness involved in general, a lot of Japanese works in paticular are able to hit the right buttons, which is why despite the low budgets (either in live action or fantasy) Japanese horror has gotten such amazing reception from jaded horror fans in markets like the US.... creators of the macabre who pull far less punches and don't worry about the kind of political correctness that constrains development in other areas. Though to be honest as time goes on I think Japan has been cracking down and becoming politically correct as well, and we are seeing far less envelope pushing compared to what we've seen before.
So yeah, I'll try not to ramble, and right off the bat there will/can be spoilers here since we are talking about stories and specific incidents. You've been warned.
I love anime, specifically anime around 90's (give or take a few series that began in the 80's and 2000's). I loved Dragon Ball/Z on Toonami, COWBOY BEBOP BABY!, Big O (first season only), Gundam Wing, Hellsing, Fist of the North STATATAAr, and hell, I even wanted to check out this series called Code Geas (Gease? Geass?) because it's supposed to be a very stark glimpse at a mecha-filled future's politics...but with mechs and shooting :3 (from what I heard).
_Point is, I'm not some raging douche making a rant thread about rape in stories. I give almost every anime a chance, and while post-2000 anime seem to be mainly depressing or S.O.L moe (Just not my kinda thing really), I found a horrific trend that's been eating at me for a looong~ time...
The hell is it with all the rape? And I mean, meaningless rape. Like rapings that can be completely omitted, and with a little re-writing you wouldn't even know the difference!
Examples:
Gankutsuou: The Count of Monte Cristo
Gantz (from what I hear of the manga)
Berserk
The Cowboy Bebop Movie
Hellsing (well, pre-Hellsing actually... Unless it happens in the manga too)
I want you to know that yes, I do realize Guts's backstory (berserk) is actually well implemented with who he is and how he reacts with Casca, and I applaud the author for creating what I consider a golden example of how using rape in a story should and/or can be done well(though I really didn't need the panels depicting it...ugh). I also know a bit about that thing that happened with Seras Victoria's past, and from what I hear it's well implemented also (in the least it sheds light on a phobia many would be quick to make fun of...like other animes do).
_I'm talking about useless, needles rape. Casca? Faye Valentine?! ALUCARD?!
The list here is just of animes I know a lot of folk know about and would/could be willing to comment on. They are also perfect examples of what I'm talking about (Gantz is recommended by a friend, actually, only saw the anime). Berserk is a series that's actually made fun of for two things: 1. Having an author (or mangaka) that takes forever to make the next installment and 2. everybody was, is, or shall be raped at some point.
Look, I'm not bashing on the animes listed. Seriously, I'm not. That's not my intention at all. My hate for that scene in the Bebop Movie is detached from this, as is my desdain for that scene in the anime of Count of Monte Cristo. I'm just looking for others' opinions on this. Not all anime do this, and because it's done doesn't mean the rest of the anime, or even all anime, is bad. As I said, my best friend really likes reading what the series of Berserk is up to despite what happened...and what happened after... O_O
I mean, just look at the "revenge flick" genre, and in the West! "I Spit On Your Grave" is a perfect example of even entire stories/movies/what have you that shouldn't and don't need to exist. And yeah, that's worse than a single scene in an anime to me.
But this isn't about that. This is about anime.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsTheNewDeadParents Here's what I gotta add you need a traumatic back story for a character and rape is one of them
By the way, I don't think you ever answered the question people have been asking you...why do you think this is prevalent? As in, what exactly is making you call this a "trend?" I mean, I'm used to Bonsai claiming rampant misogyny in the last forty years of Japanese media by now (we've butted heads before), but you, I haven't figured out.
Sometimes it's lazy writing, but more often it's because of that conclusion and everything around it.
You know, it was actually a good thing you were avoiding a "cultural" explanation. Never underestimate <url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsTheNewDeadParents>lazy writing.
Then this also explains why the Japanese populace seem to be sexually divided! This can also explain, in some way, the low birth rate, and maybe why people keep electing old politicians! A lot of things are making sense now...
No, no they're apparently not. Japan's declining birthrate is the result of a combination of factors, including the general trend of economically developed and developing nations to stop having so many children (see: us, Europe, and even India), doldrums resulting from a two-decades long economic downturn, long-term effects of a soul-crushing corporate culture, and a resultant general decreasing satisfaction and lower desire for parenthood among the population. And we Americans really aren't ones to throw stones about reelecting aging politicians, but in Japan's case, it's a bunch of factors relating to how the LDP stayed in power for over fifty years, the country's general conservatism and the disproportionate representation of rural populations on top of that, the entrenched upper class holding most political clout anyway, and the middle and lower classes usually content with it, so long as the politicians aren't openly corrupt.
Pop culture can sometimes offer a mirror of reality, but rarely an explanation of reality.
Between the, frankly, fucked up idea of enjoying these kinds of needlessly cruel scenes and the cultural explanation, I think we really have found our answer.
...And, to some degree, I kind of wish we hadn't. V_V \
Again, I don't think you did. I'm certainly not saying that Japan doesn't have problems when it comes to feminism and sex crimes, and even some creepy aspects of popular culture (though again, I don't think we're ones to throw stones), but as far as rape in anime? Are you sure you weren't just discussing hentai?
And Gantz, which I'm led to believe deliberately doesn't shy away from anything violent, and sucks on toast to boot?
By the way, I don't think you ever answered the question people have been asking you...why do you think this is prevalent? As in, what exactly is making you call this a "trend?" I mean, I'm used to Bonsai claiming rampant misogyny in the last forty years of Japanese media by now (we've butted heads before), but you, I haven't figured out.
I had. I said it was an issue for some, if not most, of the more well known anime titles to have a random or meaningless rape in them.
_However, I think it might be what another user commented earlier, that many of the anime I watch, or maybe even the genre, seems to have at least one rape in it that really didn't need to be there to get the effect the writer desired from the audience.
_Like I said, it could just be the genre of anime I watch that has it most often (action-packed or/and psychological, suppose that's called seinen?). Basically when I wrote the OP I thought it was a trend, but now I know I've probably just been stuck looking down a narrow view of most anime, sticking to one genre when I thought I was looking at every genre (as in anime series, since I adore films like those from Myazaki and Satoshi Kon alike).
You know, it was actually a good thing you were avoiding a "cultural" explanation. Never underestimate <url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsTheNewDeadParents>lazy writing.
Yeah, I wanted to avoid saying or concluding that (though I ended up doing so...ugh) since I'm not as well versed in Japanese culture as one needs to be when discussing...well...cultural issues and movements in Japan.
I just ran through nearly all the content about rape in story telling on TVTropes just now actually thanks to another commenter who posted the same link! Fucking love TVT...
And don't worry, despite having said that I do realize that the primary polutant of the meaningless rape is lazy/bad writing. I'd go back and edit that, but then I'd have to do the same for every other post and...
...Let's just say I'm not a lazy writer by any stretch of the imagination, but when it comes to editing posts, I can be a lazy commenter. heh
No, no they're apparently not. Japan's declining birthrate is the result of a combination of factors, including the general trend of economically developed and developing nations to stop having so many children (see: us, Europe, and even India), doldrums resulting from a two-decades long economic downturn, long-term effects of a soul-crushing corporate culture, and a resultant general decreasing satisfaction and lower desire for parenthood among the population. And we Americans really aren't ones to throw stones about reelecting aging politicians, but in Japan's case, it's a bunch of factors relating to how the LDP stayed in power for over fifty years, the country's general conservatism and the disproportionate representation of rural populations on top of that, the entrenched upper class holding most political clout anyway, and the middle and lower classes usually content with it, so long as the politicians aren't openly corrupt.
Pop culture can sometimes offer a mirror of reality, but rarely an explanation of reality.
As Jack Benny would say: *head tilt* "...Well..."
_Thanks for that, NeutralDrow. I'd say that really put things into perspective, but my mind is a little blown at the moment. Though what you said certainly does seem to make more sense considering that there never really is a simple explanation for anything involving a society as a whole.
_I'll stick to figuring out anime and lightly grazing the cultural issues of another country from now on, I think. Much smarter for someone who clearly hasn't studied up on said country like others have. XD
Also I was really referring to the possible re-election of Ishihara, a politician who stated twice the earthquake in Japan was divine retribution, yet last I heard his numbers were up above the other candidates. I know things in the US are kinda-to-pretty bad when it comes to the election process and politicians and such, but I'm fairly confident that if any politician said 9/11 was divine retribution they would be going right in the dumpster for the rest of their murdered career. As a matter of fact, I doubt otherwise would happen if they even said the same about what happened in Haiti or Japan!
.."dumpster" being the figurative place of awkwardness where everyone hates you and other politicians would use you as a stepping stone to being elected by bashing you.
Again, I don't think you did. I'm certainly not saying that Japan doesn't have problems when it comes to feminism and sex crimes, and even some creepy aspects of popular culture (though again, I don't think we're ones to throw stones), but as far as rape in anime? Are you sure you weren't just discussing hentai?
And Gantz, which I'm led to believe deliberately doesn't shy away from anything violent, and sucks on toast to boot?
I forgot when I put down Gantz that is was kinda the "grindhouse" of anime titles, so I not only agree with you there but also regret putting that up there (like I regret mentioning the CB movie and hating it for so long heh).
And you know I wasn't, we went through that already. But I will say this:
Maybe the answer I found was only half right. I think that the reason these things happen are for a number of reasons I'm narrowing down.
1. Bad/Lazy writing
2. Cultural issues
3. Fanservice (be it because of cultural issues or because the audience that loves anime AND anime rape are very vocal)
Much like the problem dividing the sexes in Japan (as well as all the other issues), I think the true answer to why there's seemingly a trend of unnecessary rape in anime (at least in the more popular seinin or action/psychological stuff) is multilayerd and complicated.
...And if anyone already knew that you may now call me dense for trying to see if there was a simpler answer XP
*clears throat* Anyway, I can agree to disagree when it comes to rape revenge flicks. I am honestly glad your friends are helped by them, though, and I'm glad they were able to move on and triumph over the trauma. : )
...But I will say "I Spit On Your Grave" (the original, didn't see the remake and don't plan to) is horrible shlock that only holds its place in media as a reference point.
Again, agree to disagree though.
As an honest and upstanding Gentleman *I AM* the rape scene in Derailed was horrible. And that just made the twist to the movie so much more surprising. If you haven't seen it, do. It is a great story, well told, and with a surprising twist that you will never see coming.
Also, it could be considered a "Revenge Flick" as you call them. Trust me, the intensity of the rape scene ADDS to the movie, not detracts from it.
EDIT: Nothing is shown on screen, except for a few random shots of one man superimposed with the woman. The sounds and comments are what make this such a horrible scene.
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