What's with all the "ism's" as of late?

[Phasmal]

Gaming is going through an awkward puberty stage at the moment, and probably will do for several years.
`Minority` audiences are able to get their voices and opinions out more easily and the sheer number of the people requesting the same sorts of things make people pay attention.
And then, obviously, there's gonna be pushback to this from people who think everything is fine and nothing should change (or equally that minority audiences asking for diversity are just trying to ruin shit).

Though on the forums, I'd hesitantly say things are getting better. There seems to be a less toxic environment.
Besides, gamers can never agree on anything anyway.
Believe what you believe.
I think this industry will be better from better writing and we're hopefully taking a few shaky steps in the right direction (and a few pitfalls in the wrong ones sometimes).

 

[Exhuminator]

Keep in mind any healthy medium has its diversity of catering to tastes. Film for example, encompasses everything as highbrow as art films to political documentaries to outright pornography. But you wouldn't point at the porno films and say they are solely indicative of the state of the film industry's health, right? To do so would be to entirely ignore huge swaths of all else the film world has to offer, just for the sake of hot button hyperbolism. For this reason, I find it irritating when someone points to specific games, and then suggests said games are indicative of the overall political correctness of the entire video game industry.

 

[krazykidd]

Games are just becoming increasingly influental and are maturing as a medium. Games are attempting to tell more mature stories, stories that adress sexism, racism and such. Consequently, if they do, people talk about it. Games are also increasingly held to the same standards as other forms of entertainment, which have been criticised for their problematic content for much longer. And gamers themselves are growing up with their industry, there are more and more older gamers, and their preferences might not be the same as they once were. If you're 40 years old, married, and father of a daughter, chances are you think differently about the content of your games, the messages they might send her, as you did when you were 15.

Edit: Or you go with the alternative explanation, that the people who want to talk about these issues just want to argue, sound smart, earn utterly meaningless badges or whatever...

What the people who were back in the day 40 married with kids, did they have the same preferences as people who are now 40 married and with kids? I mean people say gamers are now older, but is that really true ? I mean gaming was way more expensive back in the 80s,90s, 2000s. Adults pioneered gaming, i don't get why people keep saying the playerbase are getting older. The playerbase has always been adults, if anything gamers are starting at a younger age.

 

[Flutterguy]

Has been happening since gaming started to be the scapegoat focus of attention probably about a decade ago.

As for being on the rise I don't think its exploded recently or anything, maybe you just took a bit more notice.

Either way it's just people who want to complain because that somehow fulfills them, I could take a guess at why, but it'd be a shot in the dark honestly.

 

[King Aragorn]

Keep in mind any healthy medium has its diversity of catering to tastes. Film for example, encompasses everything as highbrow as art films to political documentaries to outright pornography. But you wouldn't point at the porno films and say they are solely indicative of the state of the film industry's health, right? To do so would be to entirely ignore huge swaths of all else the film world has to offer, just for the sake of hot button hyperbolism. For this reason, I find it irritating when someone points to specific games, and then suggests said games are indicative of the overall political correctness of the entire video game industry.

Eh when people tedn to make a thread or something addressing one game, they're usually just using it as an example to prove some kind of point about video games in general, and heck when a movie comes out that's misogynist, sexist, homophobic or whatever it often gets called out for it so why not games? if you want to do the pornography comparison if a game knows it's being misogynistic and plays it up for laughs/as satire, like say GTA V, those usually don't get criticized just like porno doesn't get criticized for being a porno. It's often the other type of games that gets criticized for it just like it's the other type of movies that gets the same treatment.
But the problem is see, when you're on a forum and 80% of the discussions are the same thing over and over and over, it loses any real meaning.

 

[JimB]

I just want to know why there so much discussion here on the Escapist of late?

Found-Jesus Syndrome. New converts to any belief system are, well, dicks about it. Doesn't matter if you just found Jesus, Wicca, the Tea Party, or feminism; if it's new and you just recently started believing in it, then you're going to be a dick about it, judging everyone and everything through the lens of your newfound superiority. A lot of people are just discovering feminism or racial sensitivity or whatever, and we (yes, we, because I am one of the biggest dicks of all) are being dicks about it. Now factor in the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and the echo chamber, and there's a lot of outrage amplifying itself.

Please note that my disparaging tone is just a result of a natural propensity for cynicism and a temporary bad mood. For all that I think there's a lot of dickishness going on right now, most of it is coming from a desire to help alleviate injustice. This is just growing pains, and I think it will ultimately serve to help improve people.

 

[Qvar]

Name at least 10 games that had mature storyline / custom societies or universes. I doubt your claim (bold).

First of all, I find it paradoxal that you expect BOTH games that treat gender equality as a perfectly normal thing (Skyrim, Saint's row, etc), so much that they may even not include any difference other than the model; and games that explore the ins and outs of mature reality (talking about racism and mysoginia mainly).

I mean, don't you dare publish a game that puts females at an inferior position, even if it's historically correct (and sadly present times would still be correct on certain aproaches). Yet don't you dare forget that females, black people etc have been historically wronged and deserve to be player character as much as, or even more, than white dudes.

Anyway, let's see what can I find looking at my library...

1. Bioshock Infinite: The whole racism thing going on at an at-first-glance utopia.

2. Mount & Blade Warband: It does punish you with more difficulties and prejudices if you are a woman, explicitly as a reminder that they had it way harder. You will only notice this if you play as a female char tho.

3. Game of Thrones. Althought it was the book where the universe was created.

4. Mass Effect. There are several references to different forms of rascism and xenophobic policies through the series.

Aaand that's all I can think about right now, but I don't buy recent games, so there may be much more than that.

 

[Vegosiux]

I just want to know why there so much discussion here on the Escapist of late?

Found-Jesus Syndrome. New converts to any belief system are, well, dicks about it. Doesn't matter if you just found Jesus, Wicca, the Tea Party, or feminism; if it's new and you just recently started believing in it, then you're going to be a dick about it, judging everyone and everything through the lens of your newfound superiority. A lot of people are just discovering feminism or racial sensitivity or whatever, and we (yes, we, because I am one of the biggest dicks of all) are being dicks about it. Now factor in the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and the echo chamber, and there's a lot of outrage amplifying itself.

Now that's one of the most accurate ways I've ever seen this put in, my hat's off to you. I'll just add to it that it also caused people to want to be "the face of whatever", instead of actually doing stuff. It's the slacktivism phenomenon, vocally "fighting the good fight" out of the armchair (goodness forbid one actually gets up and does stuff instead of all talk), and then patting oneself on the back for "having helped".

 

[Ratty]

I just want to know why there so much discussion here on the Escapist of late?

Found-Jesus Syndrome. New converts to any belief system are, well, dicks about it. Doesn't matter if you just found Jesus, Wicca, the Tea Party, or feminism; if it's new and you just recently started believing in it, then you're going to be a dick about it, judging everyone and everything through the lens of your newfound superiority. A lot of people are just discovering feminism or racial sensitivity or whatever, and we (yes, we, because I am one of the biggest dicks of all) are being dicks about it. Now factor in the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and the echo chamber, and there's a lot of outrage amplifying itself.

Please note that my disparaging tone is just a result of a natural propensity for cynicism and a temporary bad mood. For all that I think there's a lot of dickishness going on right now, most of it is coming from a desire to help alleviate injustice. This is just growing pains, and I think it will ultimately serve to help improve people.

Pretty much this. I dunno, I like to discuss things I feel are important along with silly inconsequential things. And I'm fascinated how art reflects and is molded by society. One is always imitating and commenting on the other.

 

[Dijarida]

Stay with me here when I say this, but a vast majority of times, many arguments about feminism are caused by ignorance on one side. Most of the time it comes from someone who misunderstands the idea of bringing down the patriarchy, and as someone who has been going to social justice events all across the west coast for the past five years I can say that while daunting and abhorrent at first, it really does makes sense. It comes from the immediate threat perceived by many of my fellow men when they feel that their rights are being infringed, or will be infringed upon, which sparks immediate, passionate conflict where it really ins't needed.

Don't think I'm discounting man-haters either, that's a whole other case of ignorance. Speaking of ignorance, I'm quite proud of my fellow Escapist, cause as I (Skim) read through this thread, I didn't see use of 'Feminazi' or 'Radical feminists' when referring to the ignorant gender elitists. Like I said as someone with experience in social justice, radical feminists, I could be counted among one, are just people that believe, in many cases rightfully, that extreme measures need to be taken. Feminists don't want equality, that is what spurs sillyfolks to asking if that means they can punch girls in the face,they want justice.

If you still aren't convinced about the whole feminist movement, consider the following.

In North America, I can't speak for other countries, we spend more time teaching our daughters how not to be victims, when we should be teaching our sons not to victimize.

PS, for those who may discount this post because they believe I am one of the said mentioned gender elitists, I'm a guy, i don't want to have to clarify this, but sometimes ignorance prevails and precautions are to be made.

 

[Something Amyss]

The last couple of months haven't had many at all.

Indeed. It's like "what's with all the Nintendo hate?" where it waited until after a good chunk of the "controversy" has died down.

 

[Nexxis]

Gamers are growing up. Rather than being a bunch of children and teenagers that would eventually outgrow our favorite "toy" when we hit college, gamers are starting to span a much wider and older demographic. That means we have more people who actually care about the various political and social issues often negatively affecting people because of their race, gender, etc., and those people are likely going to bring those viewpoints into any discussion about a game's story and message. It also shows that games are being taken more seriously as art and entertainment, and just like books, movies, and music, it is starting to receive the same level of critical analysis that those mediums have been receiving for decades to centuries. The thing is, many gamers haven't thought about it except for the last few years (some discussion has existed for years now, but it wasn't as prevalent), so the sudden influx of analysis makes it seem more prominent than it actually is simply because it is comparatively much more common than many of us are used to.

If anything, I think the good outweighs the bad. Games are becoming more accepted. We have the possibility of this helping us to get more and better characters of all demographics. This also may open up the possibility that games can have more meaningful discussions about the serious political and social issues still negatively affect millions. OK, so we have to deal with overly heated conversations. That seems like a small price to pay for helping games get better and become more accepted.

I agree with this point. I think it's just a natural phase for the industry so it's going to be very turbulent. To be honest, I don't think it has anything to games become more "mainstream". Video games have always been in abundance and in the public eye. However, in the past, they were toys. Things to be played with. And the audience was never "narrow" to begin with. Remember, these things started off in arcades. Public places for socializing. People went to these places in groups and played games together. Games didn't become focused on the individual until they came into the home. It went from a family toy, like a board game, to a kids toy. I think that's when the whole "demographic" thing started, and I don't think it became an issue until the obsession with maturity came into play. Maturity brings with it certain criticisms and responsibilities. Much of which a lot of the community likes to treat like a joke and use as fuel for a flame war. However, over time, people will become more tired of the mindless stuff and more of the serious and thoughtful conversations will come to light. Just give it time.

 

[KOMega]

I've always thought arguments on racism/feminism/religion/etc are easy ways to sound smart without actually doing research or any kind of intellectual legwork. I mean, complaining that a game has shit gameplay doesn't seem nearly as smart as complaining that the game is misogynist, amirite? So that's probably why such arguments are so common on the Escapist/the internet. Of course, there are probably historians/feminists/theologians who have done copious amounts of research on the subject, but they're usually ignored on forums like this.

Even worse when the topic isn't actually related to said -ism or people have accidentally stumbled into "my opinion is fact".

Sweeping generalizations are made and replies that basically go: "...look at X and you will know what I mean." but don't answer anything in any clear or straight forward way.

Still, it could be something good in that people are now willing to talk about this stuff, even if they haven't become completely open or understanding of it all.

The only thing that I think is a problem is that people do have a tendency to blow things out of proportion as time passes. Mostly in the form of X implies Y, and Y implies Z kind of thing.

 

[Racecarlock]

Because online gaming culture is toxic as fuck. And the problem is that SOME OF those people who game online do not differentiate between player and NPC. And that is BAD.

If you're a woman on xbox live and identify as such, chances are you've had some nude picture requests, sex requests, date requests, rape threats, and many more come at you. That's not to say every woman who goes on live is an upstanding CEO or rocket scientist, but it's still gross. And no, I am not saying that just to get laid. That's a bullshit excuse for disgusting men to keep harassing women. I also do not accept the excuse that "Well it happens to men too". You know what? Then that needs to be taken care of too. If men have problems too, that does not mean women don't anymore.

Then there's the racism aspect. How many of you have joined a match to hear "******" spewed in every whichaway like it was a comma even if none of the other players are african american in real life or digital? That's not cool. That's a word that was used by slave owners to identify darker skinned folk and "let them know their place". That's not cool. I apologize for typing that word in up there. It's disgusting, but I have to make a point here. Sorry.

Here's the thing. When games themselves present women as nothing more than sex objects and black people as nothing more than enemies to be shot, do you really think that helps those people that go online and do this change their views and maybe helps them not treat women and minorities like shit? I don't think so. When games do this, it backs up their view. And remember, they see you as nothing more than an NPC that can talk. Do you think they'll treat you with respect when they haven't had to treat any in game characters as such so far? I don't think so.

So, you may think this is harmless, but it's not. And I know they're bad apples, but not only are they not as small a minority as we think they are, they also make us look bad whether we want them to or not. And when a game backs up their views, it doesn't help.

 

[Charli]

It comes in waves, depending on what pissed off person is having a support rally on the internet that week for something that riled them. This just in, angry person gets angry over X because blank-ism. And such.

I've grown numb to it unless it's a franchise or particular subject that has a stake in my life nowadays. I'm too busy to worry about things on such a grand social level as I have in the past.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Games are just becoming increasingly influental and are maturing as a medium. Games are attempting to tell more mature stories, stories that adress sexism, racism and such. Consequently, if they do, people talk about it. Games are also increasingly held to the same standards as other forms of entertainment, which have been criticised for their problematic content for much longer. And gamers themselves are growing up with their industry, there are more and more older gamers, and their preferences might not be the same as they once were. If you're 40 years old, married, and father of a daughter, chances are you think differently about the content of your games, the messages they might send her, as you did when you were 15.

Name at least 10 games that had mature storyline / custom societies or universes. I doubt your claim (bold).

Mass Effect.

Dragon Age.

Shin Megami Tensei.

Catherine.

Persona 3.

Persona 4.

Final Fantasy Tactics. - and several other Final Fantasies as well, such as 7 and 9.

The Witcher series.

Deus Ex series.

The Fallout Series.

Knights of the Old Republic 2.

Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite.

Braid.

Mirror's Edge.

Red Dead Redemption.

Half-Life series.

Assassin's Creed series.

Dark Souls.

The point I'm getting at here is that listing off things isn't particularly useful in an argument. "Name me ten things to prove me wrong" is a very weak argument to make because all it takes is ten, singular examples that might not actually be the trend of things. For every example I gave, 200 DNFs exist. So, if you're going to try and refute someone's claim on mature storytelling, a list is not the way to go about it. As you can see, and as others have already done so, plenty of mature stories in games exist. Whether or not they're a trend is a different argument entirely.

OT: Well, things were actually starting to calm down until you had to point it out. It's like with the Mass Effect 3 ending. As soon as we forget about it, someone makes a thread about it and then it all starts up again.

 

[Erttheking]

it's mostly meaningless digital conversation by people who don't fully grasp social issues all that well and are making mountains out of molehills simply because they can

This comment succinctly and accurately encompasses the entire issue perfectly.

I'd like to add some people hunt online just looking for something, anything, to be upset about, and then make a fuss about it. To those people I say, if you want to legitimately decry sexism pay more attention to the labor market and less attention to disposable entertainment.

Can I ask a question? If their complaining never makes any impact, how come your comment telling them to change their tune will be any different?

 

[Megalodon]

Games are just becoming increasingly influental and are maturing as a medium. Games are attempting to tell more mature stories, stories that adress sexism, racism and such. Consequently, if they do, people talk about it. Games are also increasingly held to the same standards as other forms of entertainment, which have been criticised for their problematic content for much longer. And gamers themselves are growing up with their industry, there are more and more older gamers, and their preferences might not be the same as they once were. If you're 40 years old, married, and father of a daughter, chances are you think differently about the content of your games, the messages they might send her, as you did when you were 15.

Name at least 10 games that had mature storyline / custom societies or universes. I doubt your claim (bold).

list snip

The point I'm getting at here is that listing off things isn't particularly useful in an argument. "Name me ten things to prove me wrong" is a very weak argument to make because all it takes is ten, singular examples that might not actually be the trend of things. For every example I gave, 200 DNFs exist. So, if you're going to try and refute someone's claim on mature storytelling, a list is not the way to go about it. As you can see, and as others have already done so, plenty of mature stories in games exist. Whether or not they're a trend is a different argument entirely.

OT: Well, things were actually starting to calm down until you had to point it out. It's like with the Mass Effect 3 ending. As soon as we forget about it, someone makes a thread about it and then it all starts up again.

Seems to me a real problem with this sort of argument is talking about 'games' as one thing. Really CloudAtlas should have said "some games are attempting", because while something like Papers Please is trying to convey a message, the likes of Far Cry Blood Dragon aren't. And there's nothing wrong with that.Jjust like films don't have to be Citizen Kane/Schindler's list, we can have Pacific Rim and Commando too, variety being the spice of life and all that. It seems like we're getting more serious games as time goes on, which is fine, as long as the light-hearted ones are still there. I start having issue when people are trying to claim one standard for all games, ignoring relevant context, or bludgeoning their ideology into places it doesn't fit.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Games are just becoming increasingly influental and are maturing as a medium. Games are attempting to tell more mature stories, stories that adress sexism, racism and such. Consequently, if they do, people talk about it. Games are also increasingly held to the same standards as other forms of entertainment, which have been criticised for their problematic content for much longer. And gamers themselves are growing up with their industry, there are more and more older gamers, and their preferences might not be the same as they once were. If you're 40 years old, married, and father of a daughter, chances are you think differently about the content of your games, the messages they might send her, as you did when you were 15.

Name at least 10 games that had mature storyline / custom societies or universes. I doubt your claim (bold).

list snip

The point I'm getting at here is that listing off things isn't particularly useful in an argument. "Name me ten things to prove me wrong" is a very weak argument to make because all it takes is ten, singular examples that might not actually be the trend of things. For every example I gave, 200 DNFs exist. So, if you're going to try and refute someone's claim on mature storytelling, a list is not the way to go about it. As you can see, and as others have already done so, plenty of mature stories in games exist. Whether or not they're a trend is a different argument entirely.

OT: Well, things were actually starting to calm down until you had to point it out. It's like with the Mass Effect 3 ending. As soon as we forget about it, someone makes a thread about it and then it all starts up again.

Seems to me a real problem with this sort of argument is talking about 'games' as one thing. Really CloudAtlas should have said "some games are attempting", because while something like Papers Please is trying to convey a message, the likes of Far Cry Blood Dragon aren't. And there's nothing wrong with that.Jjust like films don't have to be Citizen Kane/Schindler's list, we can have Pacific Rim and Commando too, variety being the spice of life and all that. It seems like we're getting more serious games as time goes on, which is fine, as long as the light-hearted ones are still there. I start having issue when people are trying to claim one standard for all games, ignoring relevant context, or bludgeoning their ideology into places it doesn't fit.

My issue with the need to say "some" is the same issue that I have with the need to say "in my opinion." It's a pointlessly semantical qualifier. It should be obvious when someone states an opinion that what they're saying is an opinion; they shouldn't have to qualify it as that. Conversely, in this situation, CloutAtlas shouldn't have to "some" either and there's no need to get hung up on the semantics of it either.

The context of CloudAtlas' post makes it clear that they're pointing to a growing trend of mature storytelling in games as of late, rather than it being an all-or-none situation. The point, then, that I was making to Faluva was that asking for a list is an inefficient way of dealing with the debate at hand. Arguing over semantics is also an inefficient way of dealing with the debate at hand.

It shouldn't be about the all (in your case) or none (in Faluva's case), but rather if the trend exists or not. To illustrate this, I was waiting for someone to point out that some of the examples that I listed were rather old and shouldn't be held as an example of this trend. And they would've been correct, too, which is kind of the entire point.

The existence of the trend should be discussed here, not whether or not there's an all-or-none. Getting hung up on these things is beside the point.