What's with all the -sism accusations lately?

[Blunderboy]

I find this thread to be Isimist and will have no part in it.

Except this part right here.

Where I'm pointing out how Isimist it is.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Team Ninja are Grade A idiots, but I don't think they r sexist.

I can see someone didn't play Other M....I envy you for that.

They don't strike me as people who have an ounce of respect for women, honestly. In fiction nor reality, otherwise they wouldn't have taken the medium's most beloved, respected and idolized female badass and turned her into a submissive little girl afraid of the dark who needs her 'daddy's' permission to turn on her heat resistant suit when she's burning to death. They also made a nice comment defending this, saying they were trying to make her a more 'realistic women'. Tasteful.

Agreed on the Grade-A idiot thing. But I honestly think they're complete and utter sexist pigs XD, especially when they accuse their own country of unanimously approving of objectification outside of porn. (They don't. Look up Miyazaki.)

OT: This is the kinda thing I think it's okay to obsess over. This is kind of a growing pain phase for our little medium. I think a lot of the recent complaints have been overblown by a vocal handful of people, but in general, the fact that we look at these sorts of trailers and complain about being pandered to is a sign we're growing up. I think that's a good thing. Gamer's of both genders are a bit more aware of this sort of thing.

I also don't think this should be a 'fad' everyone obsesses over for a brief amount of time. It should be one of the topics we constantly discuss...though maybe not as obsessively as we do right now.

Most people have a weird definition of feminism right now. Going off the webster definition, everyone on this cite is probably a feminist. Going off Sarkeesian's version, you'd think it was an evil conspiracy to make both men and women hate their own sex drives. Because of those skewed definitions, I think we need to dial back the discussion and talk about these things at a slower pace. A lot of people are still convinced feminism is some kind of terrorist invasion.

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

 

[Overusedname]

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

 

[excalipoor]

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Sakamoto

"He personally penned the original story for Metroid: Other M."

He also did a half-assed apology later, not really understanding why people were upset.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

He personally penned the original story for Metroid: Other M. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Sakamoto]

How he manage to mess it up so badly is beyond me.

EDIT:

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Sakamoto

"He personally penned the original story for Metroid: Other M."

He also did a half-assed apology later, not really understanding why people were upset.

Goddamn ninjas!

 

[Sparrow]

It's just popular right now. Like when Mass Effect 3's ending was the topic of the month. I'm sure we'll be onto fair rights for paedophiles or something sooner or later.

Normally what I see happen: 2 or 3 people say something is sexist.
400 people come crashing into the thread screaming about how everything is overblown and how outraged the other people are, when they're generally not.

My advice?
Next time someone accuses you of an `ISM` and you disagree, try shrugging and saying `Sorry, I don't agree`, obviously, feel free to say why, but recognise when you and the other person are simply not going to agree. And try to stay away from posts that just sound like `NO! STOP HAVING OPINIONS I DON'T LIKE!`.
Isms are not that scary, people bringing them up are generally not outraged, and if you think they don't have a point, shrug it off and get on with your day.

I dunno', of all the things to be offended by... I think being called racist or sexist unfairly is a pretty justified reason to be pissed. Someone is basically assuming there's an entire section of humanity you hate based on one thing they've seen you say on the internet. I would rather have someone be racist/sexist toward me than call me a racist/sexist. When someone is racist/sexist to you, that's their problem. They're the one that's fucked up. But when they accuse you of being racist/sexist, that's a pretty deep defamation of your character. Pretty solid reason to feel offended.

Of course I'm not saying go crazy and give them a piece of your mind. I'm just saying you'd be well within your rights to feel offended if that happened.

 

[Quistnix]

Sexism for the sake of humor or a nod to the audience isn't a bad thing (revealing clothing, showy animations), it's just easter eggs.

Easter eggs often imply something hidden, something you have to go out of your way for to even see it. The stuff you're talking about usually get shoved right up you nostrils into your frontal lobe.

..which is completely not the point of this thread.

The sad thing: If somebody calls "ism!", 99% of the time there's a good reason for it. If you don't see the reason, maybe you should leave your nice safe perspective and look at it differently. Or, if that's to scary or to difficult, just ignore it. Don't go crying foul, that just makes everyone involved look either stupid or whiny.

 

[vun]

Silly Trilligan, Phasmal can't hit nails, she's a woman, and nail hitting is reserved for manly men with manly hammers of nail pounding fortitude

Joking aside, I agree. Most of the time, it's just people screaming their opinions at each other with very little actual discourse.

It's gets...

Tiresome.

It does get tiresome and I tend to avoid most of the topics, but I have to post here simply to say that women who would like nailing and pounding lessons may form a line outside my bedroom.

 

[Overusedname]

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

He personally penned the original story for Metroid: Other M. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Sakamoto]

How he manage to mess it up so badly is beyond me.

...I just looked up more info on this on every cite I could. I couldn't believe it.

Uuuuuuuggggghhh...This genuinely depresses me. This made my day worse. Why did he have to retcon everything? Couldn't he just start a new IP where any of these character traits would actually make sense for a new character? I mean, it still might come across as offensive but still. In context of the franchise, that literally CAN'T be Samus. She has a different personality in every scene with no character development at all, just...uuuuuuuuggggghhhh....

Here's an interesting thing to consider the next time sexism is brought up in video games.

Is this game sexist? (ie, sexualizes or otherwise makes one gender appear as a sex object over another.)

If yes, is it misogynistic? (ie, deliberately going out of it's way to make one gender worth less than the other?)

If yes, there is a problem here. If no, get over it.

Sexism for the sake of humor or a nod to the audience isn't a bad thing (revealing clothing, showy animations), it's just easter eggs. Misogyny is the real problem, and very few games have ever been misogynistic.

Well, I see what you mean, but sexism without an outright hatred for women isn't really...okay in my mind. I here this argument a lot, and I can see the logic, but it doesn't hold up in practice.

That type of sexism, the widespread kind, is consistently assigning a limited, sexual role for one gender, where as the other can do whatever they want. Men with the 1950's view of the world didn't hate women, they loved them. And they loved them to 'know their place'. It's less about hatred of women, it's more about subjugating and generalizing 51% of the populous into 1 of 2 tropes. And yeah, men in games can be tropey as hell, but not to the same extent, and not in such universally negative ways.

In my perspective, it's much less about being offensive to women, it's more just how freaking boring/non-existant female leads are lately. We have the so-called 'strong independent women' with no development, human weakness or sense of realism, vs. the submissive little pansy who never improves that we're supposed to somehow find charming. And both of them are half naked for some reason. It's getting kinda old. :/

And even knowing that about Metroid Other M, Team Ninja still seems like the kinda people I wouldn't trust my sister around.

 

[Zantos]

That just means she values her fingers because she needs them for gaming, an endeavor i think we can all appreciate.

(why do i have a feeling my complements are going to get me in hot water?)

Pffft, real gamers don't need their fingers to game. I bet you've never leaned forward and started hitting keys with your tongue because you didn't want to use your hands.

OT: Errrr, I lost it now. Something about how tone gets conveyed differently in written communications often leaving ambiguous meaning or context which is often interpreted by arseholes as you being an arsehole, and them being arseholey about it.

 

[Winthrop]

Here's an interesting thing to consider the next time sexism is brought up in video games.

Is this game sexist? (ie, sexualizes or otherwise makes one gender appear as a sex object over another.)

If yes, is it misogynistic? (ie, deliberately going out of it's way to make one gender worth less than the other?)

If yes, there is a problem here. If no, get over it.

Sexism for the sake of humor or a nod to the audience isn't a bad thing (revealing clothing, showy animations), it's just easter eggs. Misogyny is the real problem, and very few games have ever been misogynistic.

Well, I see what you mean, but sexism without an outright hatred for women isn't really...okay in my mind. I here this argument a lot, and I can see the logic, but it doesn't hold up in practice.

That type of sexism, the widespread kind, is consistently assigning a limited, sexual role for one gender, where as the other can do whatever they want. Men with the 1950's view of the world didn't hate women, they loved them. And they loved them to 'know their place'. It's less about hatred of women, it's more about subjugating and generalizing 51% of the populous into 1 of 2 tropes. And yeah, men in games can be tropey as hell, but not to the same extent, and not in such universally negative ways.

In my perspective, it's much less about being offensive to women, it's more just how freaking boring/non-existant female leads are lately. We have the so-called 'strong independent women' with no development, human weakness or sense of realism, vs. the submissive little pansy who never improves that we're supposed to somehow find charming. And both of them are half naked for some reason. It's getting kinda old. :/

And even knowing that about Metroid Other M, Team Ninja still seems like the kinda people I wouldn't trust my sister around.

The way I feel is its good to raise the question of if its sexist even if its not misogynistic, but boycotting and screaming about how the developers all hate women and think women should all be in the kitchen should be reserved for misogynists. I mean you need to let people see the subtle sexism, but blaming people for it isn't going to get you anywhere. That recent first person mentions this as well. It puts them on the ropes and they become defensive. You want that for misogynists, but not those who had some accidental sexism as it will drive them away from actually understanding the problem.

(For the record, I always liked to look at everything in games with a bit of humor. Getting angry at a video game for any reason is like getting angry because the wind changed direction.)

Who told the wind it could change direction? Is that asshole defying me again? I'm going to go punch it until it blows perfectly Southward again.

 

[Schadrach]

Normally what I see happen: 2 or 3 people say something is sexist.
400 people come crashing into the thread screaming about how everything is overblown and how outraged the other people are, when they're generally not.

My advice?
Next time someone accuses you of an `ISM` and you disagree, try shrugging and saying `Sorry, I don't agree`, obviously, feel free to say why, but recognise when you and the other person are simply not going to agree. And try to stay away from posts that just sound like `NO! STOP HAVING OPINIONS I DON'T LIKE!`.
Isms are not that scary, people bringing them up are generally not outraged, and if you think they don't have a point, shrug it off and get on with your day.

Inb4 people telling me I'm overblown and outraged.

Oh, poor overblown and outraged Phasmal (there, see, now you get to be proven right! =p), don't you know anything about the internet? Arguing on the internet was the first e-Sport, with `NO! STOP HAVING OPINIONS I DON'T LIKE!` while talking past each other it's first event. How else are people supposed to practice giving each other the internet's greatest G.I.F.T.[footnote]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Internet_Fuckwad_Theory[/footnote]?

 

[FitScotGaymer]

As much as I hate saying this, Team Ninja wasn't responsible for anything in the game that involved the story.

All the terrible characterisation, that was all down to the original creator of Metroid.

Yes.

The original creator of Samus, ruined Samus.

Wut.

...Really? Is there proof of this? Beyond the credits? Like, did he actually SAY that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshio_Sakamoto

"He personally penned the original story for Metroid: Other M."

He also did a half-assed apology later, not really understanding why people were upset.

See?

Like I said I am not entirely sure they are "sexist" as such, just that they are a bunch of narrowminded pillocks who can't see beyond their own silly little sandbox of a world.

I think accusations of prejudice are thrown around far too much and far too easily these days; especially since we have other more important things to worry about. Like Western governments gradual and insidious rolling back of basic freedoms since 11/9.

It makes me sad.

On the sexism issue, I don't mind if Female character has her tits out or ass out or whatever if it makes sense for that character.
Examples: Isabela from Dragon Age 2. She is a slutty pirate wench. Makes total sense for her to, funnily enough, look like a slutty pirate wench.
Or Poison from Final Fight, dresses in a fighter game version of the chainmail bikini. But for her it makes sense because she uses her sexiness as a trap in order to kick butt.

And on the flip side we have Miranda from ME2, whose outfit is impractical, lore breaking, and completely not in keeping with her character. She is genetically engineered to be "perfect" yes but she isn't a slut, and doesn't like to use sex as a weapon.

I don't think it is sexist or mysoginistic in case of say Isabela; but I do think is blatant fanservice and mysoginy in the case of Miranda (especially combined with the convenient ass and tit shot camera angles).

I also don't think it is an endemic problem in the industry either.

It's one of the things I like about Final Fantasy, and other JRPGs. Yes the women wear impractical and revealing outfits that are blatant fanservice. But it is not sexist because the men wear impractical and revealing outfits that are blatant fanservice.
It's cool if its equal opportunity and makes sense for the character.