Wheel of Time TV Series

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Trunkage

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Wheel of Time was a weird series. The first three books were Tolkien-esque but that transformed into something else. A lot of it was political machinations with a little dab of the Dark One to make sure that everyone knew he was still there.

For example, there were large parts of the series that was dedicated to a character being punished for not acting to the White Towers wishes and how, through the character ability to deal with punishment, was able to gain enough respect to change the White Towers beliefs. I've never seen that type of story in another form and I thought it was great.

The whole last book was pretty much all dedicated to one battle - its called the Last Battle for a reason.
 

Breakdown

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Hawki said:
As I said, only read the first three books, but, yeah, the pace is slow. As for Lord of the Rings...well, there certainly is influence, especially in the first novel, which is basically Lord of the Rings compressed into a single volume. There's lots of other similarities (Emmon's Field = The Shire, trollocs = orcs, Dark One = Sauron, Morraine = Gandalf, Lan = Arragorn, Rand and co. = hobbits...sort of...), and yeah. That said, it's far more its own Lord of the Rings-inspired piece of fiction than, say, Shannara. While the world is very binary, there's a lot of inter-factional disputes between the 'good guys' as well. 'Shades of light', rather than shades of grey, so to speak. Also, Lord of the Rings draws influence primarily from European and Christian folklore, while Wheel of Time has a bit more Eastern influence (e.g. sadin and sadair arguably bear resemblance to Ying and Yang).

Or at least that's just me. You're probably far better equipped to describe the series than me.
Once you get past the first book, the series starts to develop its own identity and stands apart from Lord of the Rings. But if the first series is based on the first book, I think it might be dismissed by TV critics as being a rip off of Lord of the Rings.
 

NeutralDrow

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Huh. I'm a huge fan of the books. I simultaneously believe that there is no possible way for this TV series to actually work, and that I have no choice but to give it a shot. Maybe I can hold out for a pleasant surprise...but since I'm one of those freaks who loved how long the books were (and barely batted an eye at Crossroads of Twilight, which is pretty much "characters react to Winter's Heart, with some character moments thrown in"), and I honestly watch extremely little TV to begin with, it's probably a vain hope.

Breakdown said:
Once you get past the first book, the series starts to develop its own identity and stands apart from Lord of the Rings. But if the first series is based on the first book, I think it might be dismissed by TV critics as being a rip off of Lord of the Rings.
I'd honestly expect more comparisons to Game of Thrones, really.

DarthCoercis said:
rodneyy said:
hopefully they will take out or change the mat rape scene
Mat got raped? Which book was that in?
Book 7, by the queen of Altaira. In a situation that lasts until midway through book 9 (minus book 8, when Mat is unconscious the entire time).
 
Apr 5, 2008
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Given a good creative team behind it, it should be a fantastic adaptation. But it would need a lot cut and trimmed down to make it fit into a TV show. Would it be 10-12 episode/year miniseries or full 22-24, f.ex? Will it be one book per year? It's a lot of work, but history shows it's absolutely reasonable.

The Lord of the Rings films for example, cut out lots and added much more. Tom Bombadil is one of the most notable instances of a big cut that benefited the movie. The elves at Helm's Deep, we don't see Radagast so much, etc. In Game of Thrones, Ros was was "the prostitute" for the first few seasons, replacing all the various prostitutes in the books. Jeyne Pool's story was given to Sansa, Jaqen H'ghar and Bron both make reappearances as fan favourites, Lady Stoneheart was entirely removed, etc.

IMO, in a similar way to how GoT follows Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Danaerys as our main PoV characters (obviously there are others, but these are the main ones. I'm simplifying for this post), WoT would need to do something similar. The core should revolve around Rand, Matt and Perrin as the three Ta'varen with other main characters Egwene, Nynaeve and of course Moiraine and Lan. Thom, Elaine, Min, altho significant should really be kept as supporting characters. I would probably completely cut out the Ogier entirely, although I don't know how their role with Steddings and the Ways/Portals would be included. But even Jordan wrote them out at some point...while they add to the world, they aren't critical to the story and screen time could be best spent elsewhere.

I would probably cut down the number of Forsaken massively; 13 is waaaaaay too many. I think 6-8 ish would be more focused, although considering the changes over the course of books/seasons, it could maybe work with more as they die and get replaced. Ultimately you only *need* Ishmael/Moridin, the two that get gender swapped, Asmodean, Moghedien and Lanfear, maybe one of the other two ladies, Graendal or Semirhage, but no need for both. Oh and that one that marries Elayne's mother, the Queen (tho even he could be cut out). Demandred is obviously important towards the end, tho they could always "resurrect" Ishmael or make it someone else. Certainly half of them could go.

I would probably remove 1-2 of the different kingdoms too. The Aiel are obviously essential, as well as Two Rivers/West Lands, Seanchan, Sea Folk and Malkier/Northern Kingdoms (insofar as they need to exist, tho we never really go there). Oh and Tear of course for the Callandor arc. As for the others, they could be trimmed a bit, storylines combined, etc. Swathes of characters could be removed without damaging the main plot too much. Ultimately they need to keep the Dragon Reborn storyline moving while weaving in and out the political subplots, most importantly the White Tower and later, the Seanchan invasion, if it lasts enough seasons to get there. Other things they can pick and choose for flavour, (Cha) Faile, Aviendah/Wise Ones, those pacifist Way of the Leaf gypsies, Black Tower, Black Ajah, the Kin, Siuan Sanche, etc.

I know Faile has to be there but I can't stand her. I thoroughly disliked her from the first time we meet her and it never changed. Or Gawyn, I hate him even more than Faile, but less than Galad. Oh, and Elaida...she would be even more hated than Cersei Lannister! Most people hate Cadsuane, and so do I a bit. But the worst thing with Cadsuane was that she was infuriatingly almost always right. I was never an Elayne fan but in her case, I know she had to be that way because of the Throne. Also, I'm Team Aviendah :)

Highlights of the show would be chronologically, Moiraine vs Lanfear, Matt blowing the horn, Rand with Callandor/vs Ishmael, Nynaeve vs Moghedien and the most epic scene in the whole lot, when Rand and Nynaeve use the sa'angreal to cleanse the source....it's one of the most incredible events that only works because of the journey the books had taken us on, with these characters, until that point. I would pay cash money to see that on the big screen, let alone the small one. I couldn't stand Nynaeve at the start...she was a bully who did nothing but tug on her braid and cross her arms beneath her breasts. But she somehow became one of most incredible characters in not just the series, but in the genre. If they can make even simply a good show with good writing and cast, that scene would be more incredible than 3 Red Weddings and about the same as Hardhome. Oh, and Lann vs Demandred...that is a showdown of the Ages. That scene was almost as good as his wife's. Ummm...and the Aviendah love scene...that was so damn hot, dear Lord I have the vapours. *wafts himself*
 
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TBH, I think the single largest challenge a WoT show will face, is not the story, casting or writing at all. It's the villains. And I don't even mean the Forsaken, they're easy. No, the challenge will be in the fantastic elements, specifically the abstract ones (the Dark One, Mashadar/Shadar Logoth) and the explicit ones: Trollocs, Myrdraal, Shaidar Haran, Mordeth. These are all high fantasy elements that no TV show has dealt with (certainly not well, or memorably).

GoT has the White Walkers/Others, but the world can accept zombies without any issue. Zombies are so mainstream that they can make a serious drama out of them and have it be a hit (Walking Dead). White Walkers are easy, especially when they have a Night King. But Trollocs are basically Orcs by another name. We had them in LotR and they're fine in books and games, but how do you portray essentially Orcs on a fantasy TV show you want the audience to take seriously?

IMO, how they portray Trollocs and the Dark One (essentially Sauron) will make or break any TV adaptation. If they're cartoonish or comical, it would ruin the tone. If they're camp, the show would be put alongside Xena/Hercules instead of LotR or GoT. If they're overdesigned, horrific or too scary, it would again make the show a different beast entirely (pun intended). I don't know how they could do it TBH, it's not easy. Maybe if they forgot the idea of the bird heads, wolf heads, lizard heads, gorilla heads, thing and just made them all more like Nosferatu [http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/v__/images/2/29/Bertram_Tung.png/revision/latest?cb=20150921193618&path-prefix=vtmb]/Gothmog [http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/b/bd/Gothmog_-_Third_Age.png/revision/latest?cb=20120304185615] or something along those lines. Somewhat horrific and otherworldly, without descending into absurdity or overcomplication. It can practically be applied to human extras en masse, mostly avoids camp and is inhuman enough that we can watch them get sliced and diced without losing any sleep.
 
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Now look, all this discussion is all well and good, but we're avoiding the real discussion here, the real meat of this thread we've been dancing around. If no one else will bring it up, I will. CASTING. Yes, now we should discuss who must play our favourite characters from the Two Rivers and beyond. So I ask you, Escapists, to pick the actors who should play the big parts. Rules:

- Give us your choices for: Rand, Tam, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Moiraine, Lan, Thom, Min, Aviendah. If you have other ideas for other specific characters not mentioned, feel free. If you have to cast Elayne or Gawyn, suppose it would be okay, but don't feel like you have to.
- You cannot use any actors/tresses from other fantasy shows. GoT and LotR cast are off limits (unless you say Ian McKellan for Thom Merrilen, which is completely acceptable, and in fact, correct. Liv Tyler for Lanfear is also completely acceptable, and in fact, encouraged.)
- You can use actors that have passed away or aged out of the role but could have played it 5-20 years ago, f.ex.
- You can choose celebs who aren't necessarily actors. Politicians, musicians, TV personalities, anyone you like.
 

Cowabungaa

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It sure can't be worse than that godawful pilot they made a couple years ago for the sole purpose of retaining the rights. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZOCCEuROPk]

Call me interested though. I never could get through those books, I think I stranded somewhere around 5? I was kind of sick of reading almost 3000 pages of introduction and setup and it was taking up way too much reading time. I had more series to read. But a TV show that trims the fat? Sure.

I'm curious how they'd do magic though, considering it's invisible for 99% of people in that universe.
 
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Cowabungaa said:
I'm curious how they'd do magic though, considering it's invisible for 99% of people in that universe.
Since it's almost always used in the context of our main characters, either by themselves or in the company of Aes Sedai or Ashaman, or fighting Forsaken/Black Ajah, I think they could just make a feast of SFX. But hopefully not cheap SFX, classy ones. In my mind, Saidar is threads or tendrils of pale colours "weaving" together to make white. Saidin is similar, but the white would all be tinged with black, or maybe coloured a sickly-yellow or something to represent the Taint. The weaving thing is crucial...it's an underlying theme of the entire series, both literally (as weaving strands of Saidar together), but also figuratively as the "Wheel of Time" itself weaves the tapestry of the world. Balefire for example, literally burns "the thread" out of the tapestry, not just killing a thing but erasing it entirely from the Wheel, undoing the fabric of the world.

It's the different "weaves" of magic that allow the magic users to create portals, discs, beams and whatever other arcane effects they use. It has potential to be very cheesy. Worst case, it's like Star Wars's "Light Side" and "Dark Side" (Heaven help us) dichotomy. It's a difficult thing to judge. LotR was magic-lite and never really explicit. Gandalf did some *stuff* vs the Balrog, Saruman and the Nazgul, for example, but he never threw fireballs, magic missiles or the like. In Force Awakens, Kylo Ren however literally waves his hands [https://youtu.be/QlT-sJLfCPU?t=135] with an electromagnet sound-effect to read minds. It's so bad it's painful to watch.

It's a very good thought tho. Personally, I think I'd lean towards something like the XMen movies. Powers are explicit and visible: gouts of fire, Blink's portals, iceman mist. Balefire could literally be like cyclops's blasts, only white. I imagine portals for example, as tendrils of white energy emanating from the hands, weaving together and around each other like vines, forming a circle, oval or rectangular tear through which we see the destination. Angreal could glow or something when they're used; Callandor would be blindingly bright. Hopefully they don't use a high-pitched sound effect because things that glow always make high pitched sounds in film/TV despite being cheesy.

I don't think the hard thing will be showing magic on screen. I think it will be portraying its place in the world. With the White Tower, it's easy...it's a coven/school/college/home of magic practitioners with the different clans/Ajahs. The important thing in the wheel of time tho is the emergence of Rand (the Dragon Reborn) and male channelers as a whole, and Nynaeve, the most powerful channeler since the Forsaken themselves (and by extension, the "magnificent three"). They have to show a world where magic is all of wondrous and powerful, commonplace and respected but also re-emerging (Elayne learning to craft Angreal again, Nynaeve's healing, Egwene/Perrin and the Dream World, Tel'aran'rhiod. Rediscovering old powers, the insanity and black spots from Saidin, the Taint, all this stuff associated with the Source.

At the same time, and I normally hate such a thing in TV/movies, magic is a fully quantifiable thing in WoT. Some characters can channel much more or less of the Source than others. Power can be stored in Angreal (like batteries), amplified by other angreal or by combining many channelers. People can be cut off or collared and controlled. Then you've got unique "abilities" like Egwene and Dreaming, Elayne and making terangreal, etc. It's all a bit XMen-y. GoT is rather low fantasy but WoT is high fantasy where magic is an integral part of the world, so I think it should be embraced, not played down.
 

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Man I'm gonna hate this but will watch every episode so I can hate it exactly as much as it deserves. Wheel of Time was pretty fundamental to me growing up, but I acknowledge all of its clunk and excess. You can't make a faithful TV adaptation. Too many characters. Too many simultaneous conspiracies. Too many plots. You can cut out all the cruft and still be left with too immense a beast to fit into any sane TV series. What the franchise really deserves is a Witcher 3 style RPG but good luck to that ever happening, the company holding those rights had Obsidian on the hook for the job once upon a time but they were such a mess that freakin' Obsidian dropped them. Last I heard they were trying to push some mobile game and were failing even at that.
 

sXeth

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LostCrusader said:
I just finished the books a few months ago and I don't know how well the series would translate. I really enjoyed the series but it is really slow going at times, especially after the first 2 or 3 books. Plus all of the fantasy series I have seen on TV have been pretty bad.
Yeah, after the third one is when it starts really splitting up into 3-5 basically isolated plots. You'd almost have to do one series for Rand. Then one with Mat and Perrin (who aren't really connected for most of the series, but don't have enough to fill their own), and one with the Aes Sedai girls (who on their own still split off into two).

I forget which ones, but I'm pretty sure there's at least a whole book each missing Rand , Mat or Perrin. Or good as. Which is a weird thing to have in a TV series.

If I remember right, its the book right after the palace gets blown up and Rand disappears.
He's basically not in the book otherwise then pops up to cleanse Saidin in the last two chapters or so out of nowhere)
 

LostCrusader

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Seth Carter said:
LostCrusader said:
I just finished the books a few months ago and I don't know how well the series would translate. I really enjoyed the series but it is really slow going at times, especially after the first 2 or 3 books. Plus all of the fantasy series I have seen on TV have been pretty bad.
Yeah, after the third one is when it starts really splitting up into 3-5 basically isolated plots. You'd almost have to do one series for Rand. Then one with Mat and Perrin (who aren't really connected for most of the series, but don't have enough to fill their own), and one with the Aes Sedai girls (who on their own still split off into two).

I forget which ones, but I'm pretty sure there's at least a whole book each missing Rand , Mat or Perrin. Or good as. Which is a weird thing to have in a TV series.

If I remember right, its the book right after the palace gets blown up and Rand disappears.
He's basically not in the book otherwise then pops up to cleanse Saidin in the last two chapters or so out of nowhere)
I want to guess that was book 9. Pretty sure that was the book after Rand cleansed the male Source. The entire book was just going around the world, having every character who could sense the power being used speculate that the power used was was the forsaken doing something. Mat was out of that one because he was incapacitated by the Seanchan taking the city he was in, and Perrin was mostly out of it.

That said, I don't think having the characters split up would make it undo able. Game of Thrones does it, though they have to mix up the timing and some of the character placements to keep the main characters onscreen as much as possible.

OP mentioned that Sony got the rights to make the show, what network would that make it? If its something like ABC, I will expect the show to be terrible by default.