When a friend tells you he "does not agree" with the concept of evolution

[Player 2]

EDIT:
Notice it's a Law of gravity, law of physics, law of (insert name of science thing here) and it's THEORY of evolution. A theory is a flawed fact, an imperfect fact. Stating yea, it's hightly likly that something like this can happen maybe, but we're just putting it out there.

For fuck's sake, did you even read my reply? I explained this to you already. A theory is not a "flawed fact" it is a scientific explanation for how or why something happens.

Law: A description of something that happens.
Theory: An explanation of why or how that thing happens.

Law of gravity: Fg = GMm/r2
Theory of gravity: (Einsteinian) Mass bends space itself, causing things to fall towards each other.

Law of evolution: The further back you go in the fossil record, the simpler the most complex organisms get.
Theory of evolution: (Darwinian) Organisms with more favorable genetic make up pass their genes down to the next generation, eventually altering the genetic makeup of entire populations/specie and resulting in a trend of growing complexity.

A theory has never, and will never become a law. EVER. They are not different rungs on the same ladder. They are entirely different fucking ladders.

Also, while the Colbert Report is satire, it states facts

No it doesn't. It states outright lies as a mockery of Bill O'Reilly.

and gives views on everything, putting things in your head.

I hope this doesn't mean you've been taking it seriously and forming opinions based on it, I really do.

 

[Imsety]

I'm sorry, I kinda skimmed through the article. Did it say anywhere in there that the bacteria had to be reclassified? If not, then that's not evolution. Just because two brown haired cats have an orange haired cat (a genetic deficiency causes orange in cats) doesn't mean that the orange haired cat isn't a cat. Just because we can change the color of eyes in flies through unnatural selection doesn't mean their not flies. Now if the bacteria had to change genera or families, then you really have something. If not, come back when they do.

Umm, just making sure. You do realize that things like "genus", "family" and "class" are purely human constructs, and nothing more? Organisms aren't automatically assigned a new name, it'd mean that pretty much every unique genetic makeup ever would have its own genus. Homo Sapiens var. Imsety. Hey, actually, that sounds like a good idea!

Long story short, if Lenski's bacteria were found in the wild, it would be completely irrelevant whether or not they would be assigned as a new species, or a variant on an existing species. What matters is that the genetic makeup of that specific population was so radically different from the mother, and that it had developed a trait (digesting citrate) that no other bacteria in its lineage had. Therefore, evolution, or specific creation by a trickster deity that wanted to dick with poor professor Lenski. Up to you to prove the latter is true, rather than the former.

 

[Orekoya]

Just because people have opinions different from yours doesn't make them wrong.

Evolution isn't something you can have an opinion on and be equally reasonable either way. Evolution is a fact, it can be observed [http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html].

I'm sorry, I kinda skimmed through the article. Did it say anywhere in there that the bacteria had to be reclassified? If not, then that's not evolution. Just because two brown haired cats have an orange haired cat (a genetic deficiency causes orange in cats) doesn't mean that the orange haired cat isn't a cat. Just because we can change the color of eyes in flies through unnatural selection doesn't mean their not flies. Now if the bacteria had to change genera or families, then you really have something. If not, come back when they do.

...Speciation not good enough for you? If you honestly believe that evolution makes that claim, then you do not know what the theory describes and need to learn about it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup#p/u/4/vss1VKN2rf8

I was just about to link that video in the channel. I love his approach to intellectual atheist explanation of his views.

 

[ThisIsSnake]

A rise in depression rates? I'd love to know what your source for that gem is.

I would have thought it would be bleedingly obvious that there wouldn't be a source, but I guess I was wrong. Try to think next time.

Not accepting evolution shows an ignorance of science which could be an indication that a person is anti-science. Science has constantly been the way forward for humanity and will continue to be the way forward. If politicians that subscribe to ignorant ideas like ID or Creationism get into power then they might try implement legislation to have it taught in schools like they have a bit of a history doing. These ignorant adults help to make ignorant children, which will then result in fewer scientists, which leads to slower advancements.

How does your beautiful little chain of causality reconcile successful scientists, both present and past, who have not subscribed to the theory of evolution?

Oh and if you're going to try be a grammar nazi it helps if you don't make mistakes

"People's perspective on social justice and moral obligation matter"

People have perspectives not a single perspective.

You mean like in the two sentences surrounding that one?

Also, grammar is not the same thing as spelling.

Now you're laying into people that aren't me. That is not very nice.

OK...

1. Why did you think there is a connection between understanding evolution and depression?
2. Name me those credible scientists that have issues with evolution and have proposed an alternative.
3. I said you shouldn't make mistakes, orthography and grammar are both parts of the English language.

 

[fundayz]

If you'd have been taught that God did it from the same age as you were taught about evolution you'd believe that instead.

Well of course we would, we have millions of children that have been brought up that way and vehemently disbelieve anything that contradicts their religious teachings.

That's not the point though, we are talking about EDUCATED people who still don't believe evolution.

 

[Timberwolf0924]

Hey, I enjoyed the debate with y'all all. (I say debate because no ones started calling names out yet lol) but my job is calling. When I get back, if this discussion is still running I'll tag in again. Or when I can swing by at work. It's hard to have intelligent conversation with people (I say intelligent, though I'm pretty sure most of you are thinking 'dumb-ass' for beliving in natural selection, but not evolution)

 

[hooblabla6262]

Evolution is not proven. It has evidence (some very good evidence), but is simply a theory based on the evidence provided. There is no point in getting up-in-arms every time someone disagrees with you. Always remember, it takes two idiots to argue. And when you start looking down on those who don't believe in a certain scientific theory, you end up making the same mistakes that people have always made by keeping a closed mind.

If you take an honest look at evolution, it is not hard to find some serious holes in such a theory. The truth is we haven't reached a point where we can know these things for sure. I always find it funny how people are so easily willing to take a leap of faith on the idea of evolution or other such theories, based on the ideas of groups of men. Yet when it comes to religion, they suddenly become these harsh and cruel skeptics. Science would not be the force it is today without religion, so even if you don't believe (as I don't) it is important to realize the importance of such a faculty.

-A real Skeptic

Edited for those who can't take a joke. And by edited, I mean, read my later post (cause it's actually funny, I swear!@)

 

[Turing '88]

It isn't a hard theory to grasp. The average person can easily understand it, you've probably just had a crap teacher or it's just a concept that doesn't gel with you personally. That's fine, but please don't assume the rest of us only believe because we were taught it at school. The only way to not belive in evolution is to doubt all of science, or belive in one of those crazy cover up conspiricies.

OK, you appear to have misunderstood. I actually have what my country's league tables recognise as an excellent education. Like, really, top twenty school and everything. I attended a specialist science school, I have a thorough grounding in science. I also understand and agree with the evidence for evolution. I was simply explaining that most people's understanding of evolution is based more on their teacher's authority than on their actual appreciation of the science.

As a basic rule if you ever ask someone to prove something and they say something like 'it's obvious isn't it?' then it means they've run out of evidence and begun arguing from their convictions. Well that's how most people see evolution, they've never really thought it through because it's just obvious. You'd be astonished what you can make children think is obvious if you have them from a young enough age. They happen to be right this time but I'm cautioning against thinking those that don't believe in evolution are stupid. If you'd have been taught that God did it from the same age as you were taught about evolution you'd believe that instead.

I would like to believe I wouldn't, but I don't know. I'm a very logical thinker, evidence means a lot to me. Math and Physics were my best subjects at school...etc but a different upbringing could easily change that. I was obviously wrong about you, and maybe in general people don't understand evolution. I can't comment on that without seeing or conducting a study on it.

My point was more that in the grand scheme of things, evolution isn't one of the harder concepts to understand unless you are talking about the actual mutation processes themselves and genetics in depth. Natural selection in it's simplest terms is brilliant in how elegantly it works and how intuitive it is, there's a reason we were able to domesticate so many animals.

Compare that to trying to explain wave-particle duality to a guy on the street, or how the GPS satallite has to compensate for time dialation to keep readings accurate.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Having said that, it's impossible to know what he actually meant from the OP's description. For instance, I have heard many people say that survival-of-the-fittest evolution is not really working on people anymore because we are saving all of our old and sick, and mating with them based on whether they're nice rather than fit (or at least the criteria have changed). Furthermore, it seems that less successful/intelligent/rich people are getting less children than their less fortunate counterparts. Of course, that is still evolution (just in the wrong direction), but I can forgive a person for not knowing/understanding that.
.

idk about this, i still disagree with it time after time, especially after meeting some of the people i know.

Hell the most athletic person i have ever personally met/befriended in my life has the most average/below average parents who were never athletes in high school and were never smarter than your average joe, and hell he LOOKS like the most unathletic person ever also, but despite all that he destroys everyone in every single sport i have seen him play, even ping pong.


now I know that is just one person with one example, but i have fruitless amounts of others, and after seeing so many things opposite of what you just said with my own two eyes, its really hard to believe that "hot athletic guy + hot smart girl = hot super athletic smart child"

So are you saying that you don't believe in evolution (for humans)? Because I'm pretty sure that it has been proven that it does exist. Also, I bet that when you think about it, you will also see more positive than negative examples. For instance, most people look somewhat like at least one of their parents, and look similar to their siblings.

But some things are heritable while others aren't. And the outside world can affect different aspects of your character differently. Furthermore, a lot of randomness occurs in the evolutionary process. There are basically three main processes going on: selection, cross-over/combination, and mutation. Selection is about who gets to reproduce and with whom. In the paragraph you quoted I was mostly talking about that, because nowadays the weak are less likely to die and more likely to found a mate compared to the old days and other animals.

Then there is the way in which the parents' genes are combined to form the child's. Now, I have very little knowledge of what traits are and are not encoded in these genotypes, but I do know that the combination can be surprising. Here is a kind of contrived example, but I hope it gets the point across: let's say that both parents are not athletic because for both of them one leg is longer than the other. Let's also say that there is no "athleticness" gene, but there are "length of left leg" and "length of right leg" genes. If the child gets the "long left leg" gene from the father, and the "long right leg" gene from the mother, he will be much more athletic than either of them.
And finally there is random mutation, which could potentially let the child grow wings and make him super athletic (I guess). (It won't actually let him grow wings, because those mutations are generally a little smaller than that.)

However, the idea of evolution is of course that the odds of getting a child with beneficial traits are better when the parents have those traits as well, and that is also my experience. Most smart people I know have smart parents. Most fat people I know have fat parents. Most athletic people I know have parents who were athletic in their day or at least into sports. And of course, evolution will only alter your innate traits and the environment and situation in which you live and grow up will have great effects as well.

no i'm not saying that, i'd appreciate this to stay away from flaming people off of one little thing such as this, i don't think its a simple black and white answer, and i understand your point with the "long leg" thing, but i know some people with long legs...and they are the most unathletic pieces of shit you have ever seen. (they are some great friends..but fuck that if i am ever picking the for my team when it comes to sports) the one example i was using against the idea of "HERP DERP SPARTAN EVOLUTION" is he is a male, 6'1, weighing maybe 160, and is the most average/below average looking person you could possibly think up in your mind, yet, he is the most athletic person i have ever met, and considering he went in one of the first few rounds in this last years draft for the nfl, i'd like to think thats pretty damn athletic.

my point was that the "randomness" part plays in big sometimes, and i do realize there are just as many negative "fat parents have fat kids, etc.." if not more, but im still saying its there and its more than noticeable enough to make a difference, my point is that evolution isn't "BAHHHHHH STRONGEST HERP DERP SURVIVE" always, and that obviously with mutation everyone has a chance to "evolve" into a better human form

 

[Mathak]

Evolution is not proven. It has evidence (some very good evidence), but is simply a theory based on the evidence provided. There is no point in getting up-in-arms every time someone disagrees with you. Always remember, it takes two idiots to argue. And when you start looking down on those who don't believe in a certain scientific theory, you end up making the same mistakes that people have always made by keeping a closed mind.

If you take an honest look at evolution, it is not hard to find some serious holes in such a theory. The truth is we haven't reached a point where we can know these things for sure. I always find it funny how people are so easily willing to take a leap of faith on the idea of evolution or other such theories, based on the ideas of groups of men. Yet when it comes to religion, they suddenly become these harsh and cruel skeptics. Science would not be the force it is today without religion, so even if you don't believe (as I don't) it is important to realize the importance of such a faculty.

-A real Skeptic

'Only a theory'? Why, we hadn't heard that argument before in this thread! Please refer to about 50% of all above posts for a rebuttal.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

Evolution is not proven. It has evidence (some very good evidence), but is simply a theory based on the evidence provided. There is no point in getting up-in-arms every time someone disagrees with you. Always remember, it takes two idiots to argue. And when you start looking down on those who don't believe in a certain scientific theory, you end up making the same mistakes that people have always made by keeping a closed mind.

If you take an honest look at evolution, it is not hard to find some serious holes in such a theory. The truth is we haven't reached a point where we can know these things for sure. I always find it funny how people are so easily willing to take a leap of faith on the idea of evolution or other such theories, based on the ideas of groups of men. Yet when it comes to religion, they suddenly become these harsh and cruel skeptics. Science would not be the force it is today without religion, so even if you don't believe (as I don't) it is important to realize the importance of such a faculty.

-A real Skeptic

hahahahahahahahahaaaa
That was satire right?

Could you show me these holes? and if they're 'gaps' in the fossil record I will find a shoe and throw it at you.

It's not 'just a theory'. That you're saying that shows me one very clear thing: you do not know what a theory is. The colloquial definition of theory is different from the scientific one, that's already been pointed out but I guess reading can be difficult.

I'm a skeptic, I don't trust something as true without evidence. I've looked very hard at the evidence for evolution and the proposed evidence against it. It's a landslide for evolution, there really is no comparison.

I'll still listen to any forthcoming evidence or problems with the current theory though, so I'd love to hear your better-not-be-copied-from-AnswersinGenesis problems with the theory. I would be genuinely amazed if it was anything better than "cos derbuybull sez so lolol".

 

[milo2215]

I'm glad The Escapist is so open-minded when it comes to differing ideas concerning evolution.

 

[Sharpiez]

Law of gravity: Fg = GMm/r2
Theory of gravity: (Einsteinian) Mass bends space itself, causing things to fall towards each other.

Except when light or dark matter is involved... Or anything else that may break its rules... So... Is it really a law?

 

[Hugga_Bear]

I'm glad The Escapist is so open-minded when it comes to differing ideas concerning evolution.

I'm personally willing to listen to actual ideas. If someone doesn't think evolution is right, that's cool, but I have every right to treat them in the same way as someone who thinks the earth is flat.
If they actually present evidence, that's a different kettle right there, I'll listen to that. But not "I don't believe it because a 2,000 year old book says it's wrong."

See I don't hate religion or faith but they can stay the hell away from reason and logic unless they have something to offer. If they don't think it's true, OK, but put up or shut up.

 

[Warlord211]

Yeah I'm the same way except I'm a Baptist (don't hate me, my parents raised me as a Baptist but I will probably change to some other denomination after I go to college). I bounce between faith and non-faith all the time.

lol, Why would I hate you? Same religion different ideas about how to go about it. Sure the differences may make for a good debate but there's no reason to hate another denomination just because they don't see eye to eye with another.

People tend to think that Baptists are a bit on the extreme side and are just ignorant people with little to no respect for people who are not like them. Example: Westboro Baptist Church.