When a friend tells you he "does not agree" with the concept of evolution

[habsJD]

In short, why do you care if I, or anyone else for that matter, believe in guided evolution or in straightforward evolution? Am I really stopping scientific progress by believing that evolution is guided? Not a chance. Even if I was a scientist specifically researching evolution, I'd be able to keep my beliefs out of my work. Scientific Method and whatnot.

Remember the good old days when atheists used to hate Christians because they hated to be preached at? Apparently the tables have turned now.

 

[GraveeKing]

-snip-

Then you are ignorant and need to study up on the matter before denouncing it as false. There's nothing wrong with saying "I don't understand relativity"; there is however something wrong with saying "I reject relativity and don't understand it either way".[/quote]

Well, I've seen evidence to suggest it as a possible theory. but nothing decisive. If you'd please care to provide an explanation of total evidence rather than say 'you're stupid and don't understand' when already 2 people have been mentioned in this thread that were clearly very smart but still didn't believe in evolution.
Trust me, I'd love to hear of any evidence you can provide - I'm interested. Because I'll tell you I understand plenty from my friend telling me a lot about it in the past as well, mainly things that he showed could just be part of coincidence.

For example - if evolution is correct and takes anything over a 1000years to create a new species. The food chain would be broken, if say the first mammal evolved to land and grew legs - that's only a herbivore - and nothing to eat said animal, hence it'd grow over-populated and eventually starve to death. Then if/when carnivores evolved, they'd have nothing to eat.
The idea of evolution is then surely based on the idea that the entire food chain all evolved AT ONCE, otherwise you'd simply have starving animals in the end.

Of course you've also got to consider other things, e.g. if a single fish in 1 billion evolved and grew legs upon birth - who's there to breed with it to create more? (except of course they're an animal which don't need 2 separate genders to give birth and self-fertilize but that's pretty rare) and IF there are (again by sheer luck that they all evolved at once) then how would they know HOW to breed, this animal has never experienced land in the past, it's a completely different environment, quite simply - what would it know to eat? How would it know how to breed?
UNLESS natural evolution made them know everything by instinct about an environment they never experienced before - explain that please.


Of course I respect all views on the subject and welcome discussions from both sides, but things like this leave it down to chance. I respect genetics giving advantages over time like camouflage or improvements but doesn't explain the creation of the original species.

 

[GraveeKing]

In short, why do you care if I, or anyone else for that matter, believe in guided evolution or in straightforward evolution? Am I really stopping scientific progress by believing that evolution is guided? Not a chance. Even if I was a scientist specifically researching evolution, I'd be able to keep my beliefs out of my work. Scientific Method and whatnot.

Remember the good old days when atheists used to hate Christians because they hated to be preached at? Apparently the tables have turned now.

Oh and you're my hero, thank you muchly for saying that and saving me time.

 

[hooblabla6262]

All I'm trying to say is that one day you'll realize that Hogwarts was behind it all. There is no evolution, or god. Just Wizards. You doubt me now, but they're coming, and they've learned a thing or two (such as the definition of Scientific theory).

To all the evolutionary skeptics, let me tell you this. It is real. Sure we call it theory, but that's just to confuse you. And though I've never been sold on this whole "god" thing, I'm sure creationism and evolution can be friends. It's what God would want. And if you still have a hard time with this whole "evolution" mumbo-jumbo, just remember that "God" can do anything. It makes it a much easier theory to swallow.

And to all the scientists/atheists who like to pick on our bible buddies, try to be kind. Faith is not a luxury we can afford or even understand. Science has spoiled us. And if you don't like the idea of a deity watching over us, do what I do. Take the bible as a nice story reminding us to be awesome people. It's quite nice how you can often replace the idea of God with the idea of life or love. It makes the whole thing much easier to swallow. And try not to get upset when they bring up fossil gaps or mysterious die-outs. We can ignore those until we become better scientists.

So there you go. I just solved the evolution/creationism/wizard debate. Praise me, your true Escapist God.

Edited for a question: I lost my evolution clock. When do we all become super mutants? (and no, I don't count gingers. Even if they are as enchanting and rare as unicorns)

 

[kloiberin_time]

About 5 years back I was going to Missouri State in Springfield, MO. Anyone familiar with the area knows that there are 4 Universities and like 100 little colleges in the city, some of them being Jesuit schools.

I knew that I had to flee the city when I overheard this gem of information at a Panera Bread,
"You know, maybe the dinosaurs didn't die when we think they did. We found evidence that maybe they were around when Adam and Eve were chillin' at the garden. You know what evidence that was? The Bible."

The next day a dropped my classes and moved back to KC as far away from Jesusland as I could get with the money I had at the time.

 

[zefiewings]

I don't think just because he is "smart" it means he has to agree with you. I don't believe in evolution and I consider myself to be well above average intelligence. If that is not enough fr you, my sister is a certified genius (in a test, it was calculated that she is smarted than 99% of the population, which is the highest possible result) ans she doesn't agree with it either.

I assume you are talking about the from monkeys thing. All the people above me that are saying "its not a theory, because we know it happened" are wrong. You saw, before your very eyes, a monkey turn into a human? i think not. That theory of evolution if pure speculation.

 

[Therumancer]

[
Right from the start, your "source" for all of this sounds less like a peer-reviewed anthropology/archeology paper and more like The Twilight Zone. If you're going to throw out crap like that, I expect some sources.

Essentially, this is the epitome of "alternative theories". They have no evidence to back their claims up, needlessly complicate things (you STILL need to explain modern evolution), and simply sound like the kind of batshit crazy ramblings you'd get from a conspiracy nut. >.> These are NOT actual alternatives to evolution. They are pop-culture urban legends, unless you wanna find me a solid source (preferably peer-reviewed) on the matter.

You are missing the point I was making entirely. I'm not trying to sell these attitudes as the truth, I'm simply pointing out that the theories exist, and you'll notice I didn't mention religion or god once. That's the point.

I was actually tempted to put up a bunch of links, but given your attitude I'm not going to bother. All you need to do is search for a few keywords like "Aliens, Seeded, Humanity" and then follow the trail from there and you'll run into a bunch of theories with various people making referances, all along the lines of what I mention. The point here was not validity but that these theorie exists and represent a non-religious alternative to evolution.

As far as a lot of the sources being accepted by the scientific community, well obviously that isn't the case since we ARE talking about fringe theories and I never disputed that. As a result your not going to find a lot of weight behind it. Evolution is currently the darling theory of the scientific community, and no other theory whether based on things like aliens or religion is giving equal weight by the scientific community.

On the other hand I will point out that if you start doing searches on UFOs, you'll find a lot of overlap, and are likely to find a somewhat higher class of people involved in making the claims in SOME cases.

The point is if you really want to find out, it's easy enough to do, but since you really don't, I don't think it's worth the effort.

 

[Turing '88]

Well, I've seen evidence to suggest it as a possible theory. but nothing decisive. If you'd please care to provide an explanation of total evidence rather than say 'you're stupid and don't understand' when already 2 people have been mentioned in this thread that were clearly very smart but still didn't believe in evolution.
Trust me, I'd love to hear of any evidence you can provide - I'm interested. Because I'll tell you I understand plenty from my friend telling me a lot about it in the past as well, mainly things that he showed could just be part of coincidence.

For example - if evolution is correct and takes anything over a 1000years to create a new species. The food chain would be broken, if say the first mammal evolved to land and grew legs - that's only a herbivore - and nothing to eat said animal, hence it'd grow over-populated and eventually starve to death. Then if/when carnivores evolved, they'd have nothing to eat.
The idea of evolution is then surely based on the idea that the entire food chain all evolved AT ONCE, otherwise you'd simply have starving animals in the end.

Of course you've also got to consider other things, e.g. if a single fish in 1 billion evolved and grew legs upon birth - who's there to breed with it to create more? (except of course they're an animal which don't need 2 separate genders to give birth and self-fertilize but that's pretty rare) and IF there are (again by sheer luck that they all evolved at once) then how would they know HOW to breed, this animal has never experienced land in the past, it's a completely different environment, quite simply - what would it know to eat? How would it know how to breed?
UNLESS natural evolution made them know everything by instinct about an environment they never experienced before - explain that please.


Of course I respect all views on the subject and welcome discussions from both sides, but things like this leave it down to chance. I respect genetics giving advantages over time like camouflage or improvements but doesn't explain the creation of the original species.

The problem is that a fish didn't just grow legs one morning and walk onto land. It will have happened slowly, maybe first with a water based creature that has short trips onto land to lay its eggs, or perhaps to escape predators for a short time. This animal had an advantage against others of its kind so it's traits were more likely to be passed on. One of it's mutant offspring could spend more time on land, perhaps eventually only entering the water to feed. It was much safer on land so it's genes were more likely to pass on. This process continues on until eventually you end up with people arguing on the internet

The point though is that between each distinct stage there are intermediate creatures, hundreds of thousands of them. There are also millions more that didn't have a beneficial mutation and died without reproducing. Small changes adding up over time to make drastic ones.

 

[Evil Top Hat]

To make things worse he said "there are some things that humans are meant to understand

How is the fact that he thinks differently to you "bad"?

Evolution is a well backed up theory, and micro evolution is just common sense, but it doesn't explain how an animal can magically grow legs or develop an organ. You can say that the changes are gradual and not instant, but if the gene for an organ does not exist in a species, then it never will. You can't get something from nothing.

Evolution is well backed up, but not fact, and if somebody doesn't believe in it, it has nothing to do with their intelligence. if you believe in evolution then fine, but people that don't aren't stupid just because they disagree with you.

 

[bombadilillo]

I don't think just because he is "smart" it means he has to agree with you. I don't believe in evolution and I consider myself to be well above average intelligence. If that is not enough fr you, my sister is a certified genius (in a test, it was calculated that she is smarted than 99% of the population, which is the highest possible result) ans she doesn't agree with it either.

I assume you are talking about the from monkeys thing. All the people above me that are saying "its not a theory, because we know it happened" are wrong. You saw, before your very eyes, a monkey turn into a human? i think not. That theory of evolution if pure speculation.

Wow. Just wow. For stroking your ego so much with how smart you are you are incredibly ignorant. I honestly cant tell if your post is a joke or you are just that dense, having no idea what you are talking about.

P1: Evolution says people came from monkeys
P2: It has not been observed when "a monkey turn into a human"
C: Evolution is false.

Brilliant argument. Simple, idiotic, and just the kind of argument creationist actually use.

 

[IsraelRocks]

I have heard many people say that survival-of-the-fittest evolution is not really working on people anymore because we are saving all of our old and sick, and mating with them based on whether they're nice rather than fit (or at least the criteria have changed

That was my key argument in the conversation actually .

I'd be all like "Whatever, man." People are entitled to their opinions, and if we don't let the religious people have that, how can we justify our views?

I'm not saying that People are not entitled to their own beliefs. its just that for me science and religion are two separate fields that cannot coexist. How can someone be absurdly smart and still have beliefs based on well... nothing.

The best thing to do in this situation is never bring it up again. If it never comes up again, you can just forget about it. If he brings it up again, he's the one being an ass.

Yeah, guess that's the best course of action.



WOW.... 320 replies so far, a personal best

 

[bakan]

Law of gravity: Fg = GMm/r2
Theory of gravity: (Einsteinian) Mass bends space itself, causing things to fall towards each other.

Except when light or dark matter is involved... Or anything else that may break its rules... So... Is it really a law?

The law of gravity works just fine...
It is just that you are missing mass at large scales like the galactic halo which we describe as dark matter, the concepts are there and this special case at larger scales doesn't break the law itself.

 

[Turing '88]

no other theory whether based on things like aliens or religion is giving equal weight by the scientific community.

Just want to point out this bit. Why do you think that is? Is it that scientists want aliens kept a secret(maybe the government paid all of them off, should only cost a few trillion)? Probably not. Maybe they're ignored because the evidence for these theories is terrible and/or non-existent in every case. Nobody wants alien influence to be real more than the kind of people I met on my physics course, but evidence is the part where they all fall down.

 

[hyker]

Well, if he was raised or taught to think this way it's best to just respect what he thinks and act with him the way you did before.

 

[fundayz]

If you take an honest look at evolution, it is not hard to find some serious holes in such a theory. The truth is we haven't reached a point where we can know these things for sure. I always find it funny how people are so easily willing to take a leap of faith on the idea of evolution or other such theories, based on the ideas of groups of men. Yet when it comes to religion, they suddenly become these harsh and cruel skeptics. Science would not be the force it is today without religion, so even if you don't believe (as I don't) it is important to realize the importance of such a faculty.

-A real Skeptic

1. Where and what are these holes in the theory of evolution? All fossils, ecological mechanisms, genetic mechanism and sexual selection mechanisms point at evolution. Not only that, but we have already seen microevolution and speciation multiple times within our lifetime.

2. By definition, a scientific theory does not require a "leap of faith". A theory only becomes scientific if it has enough evidence to make accurate predictions about a natural precess or state of the universe. Unlike creationism and intelligent design, evolution is NOT just the ideas of men as there is concrete evidence for it.

3. Science and technology would be CENTURIES ahead of what we have now if it wasn't for religion. Did you forget the Dark Ages? For entire centuries religious organizations DIRECTLY and PURPOSELY stopped the intellectual progress that would eventually spawn modern science.

You are not a real skeptic, you are a simple doubter. A true skeptic doesn't just doubt everything, they doubt things that lack evidence and facts. The theory of evolution is COMPLETELY based on evidence, facts, and observable processes; NOTHING about it is speculation or made up.

For example: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028184.300-lab-yeast-make-evolutionary-leap-to-multicellularity.html

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Unfortunately, being smart just means you have better means to defend that which you hold true out of ignorance. Doesn't prevent ignorance, I'm afraid.