When a friend tells you he "does not agree" with the concept of evolution

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gdv358

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Nov 11, 2009
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Unfortunately, when someone denies evolution, it rarely has to do with their intelligence and more to do with their upbringing. I've known several biblical literalists in my life who turned out to be very well educated and/or open-minded to almost everything -but- what they determined to be contradictory to the bible.

Now, you don't have to be a biblical literalist to deny evolution, but that makes up the vast majority of anti-evolution discussion. And, when you think about it, it makes sense why it's hard for them to accept it.

A lot of people have been brought up to believe things happened another way. They've been convinced that anything contradictory to this is a "test" and they've been told that failing this test is akin to rejecting God. You've mentioned your friend practiced Judaism and, while you say he's not that religious, I find that if they're willing to practice the small stuff (separating the meat from the dairy) then, while they may not be strict practitioners, they believe everything said in the book.

If your friend is as smart as you say he is though, even if he is a creationist, it's possible to convince someone in that mindset. When I say I've known several biblical literalists, that's all past-tense. All of those friends have come to realize that they don't have to sacrifice their faith to accept science (and this was tough, one of them was a young earth creationist that believed in Noah's flood whole-heartedly).

When you find someone who's smart but shares an opinion that disagrees with science, it's never because that's their one blindspot, it's because you're dealing with years of them being taught the opposite is true. All you have to do to correct that kind of thing is to show your proof and be patient enough to address his concerns one at a time. There's a lot of concerns, it could take a while if you actually care about it. If you don't, no harm really in letting someone believe that some things are unknowable.
 

Dark Knifer

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May 12, 2009
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I had a situation like that, except it's someone I really don't like. In physics we we're giving a task on the big bang theory and this guy says "Can we just say it's a load of bullshit cause creationism is right?"

This wouldn't surprise me so much but he's really interested in physics so being so anti-science is quite baffling.
 

pieguy259

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Dec 25, 2008
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Sharpiez said:
How is believing in a scientific theory any different from believing in a religion? Science isn't the end all and be-all of reality.

Same shit. If we assume God is a constant in our universe then I have made a theory of a deity that can not be falsified, and is thus a valid theory.

Whoa.
A theory is only valid if it CAN be falsified. Falsifiability is a very important part of science. The theory of evolution via natural selection can be disproved; it just hasn't yet. If irrefutable evidence turned up that dinosaurs and humans DID coexist, that would disprove the theory.

You cannot prove that God does not exist, and thus God's existence is not a valid theory.
 

Zaik

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Jul 20, 2009
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Oh noes, the evil Christians stole your friend and influenced him with their evil evilness, soon he'll be trying to get you to eat crackers with red wine with him.

On a serious note, get over it - and yourself.
 

dancinginfernal

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Sep 5, 2009
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I stare at him dumbfounded.

Not really, I would be surprised at first then be fine with it.

Maybe tease him a bit.
 

Griffolion

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Aug 18, 2009
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Zaik said:
Oh noes, the evil Christians stole your friend and influenced him with their evil evilness, soon he'll be trying to get you to eat crackers with red wine with him.

On a serious note, get over it - and yourself.
I can kind of see the underlying point you're making. But you could have been a bit nicer to the OP...
 

xbox hero

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humans don't evolve,they de volve .BEAR WITH ME!If they say that humans evolved from a monkey all the way to a normal human,then why are we having wars,now you say "But we have people who are artist,we have bigger brains and we are the more dominant species"And I say to that "So do apes" We are dominant because we want to be,hell.If we where birds we would be the dominant species!Apes maybe are more stupider then us,but that is a good thing.We don't need tehnology in our lifes and im a pc geek! The Point is.We didn't evolve,we just changed our look and got weaker.You get it now? it being evolution.
 

Zaik

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Jul 20, 2009
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Griffolion said:
Zaik said:
Oh noes, the evil Christians stole your friend and influenced him with their evil evilness, soon he'll be trying to get you to eat crackers with red wine with him.

On a serious note, get over it - and yourself.
I can kind of see the underlying point you're making. But you could have been a bit nicer to the OP...
I could have.

But I hate to waste good advice. Had I been nice about it he might have suspected I was turning the other cheek or something and therefore crazy.

If anything, I should have been more hostile, but the forum rules don't really allow for that.
 

The_Emperor

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Some people need faith more than truth, because it makes there life seem to have a point and gives them a reason to put up with all the bullshit that modern life entails
 

ThisIsSnake

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Ryengu said:
ThisIsSnake said:
Natural selection leads to evolution. Evolution happens quite fast in species with short lifespans. There are peer reviewed documented cases of evolution. e.g. Ecoli bacteria experiments.
Natural selection is the mechanism by which evolution is supposed to occur, yes. But there's a difference between the manifestation of a few different traits through mutations in simple organisms, which are then passed on, and something actually becoming a different and/or more complex species. Again I point at dogs. While it's perfectly understandable for someone unfamiliar with them to think that great danes and chihuahuas are completely different species (after all, there are COMPLETELY unrelated species that look much more similar), they are still biologically the same species.
Oh you should have made it clear you were trying the micro/macro evolution fallacy. Since you've decided bacteria can't have species:

The Hawthorn fly species is currently speciating, with the Hawthorns feeding on apples only able to successfully breed with regular Hawthorns 4-6% of the time and has developed it's own distinct life cycle (The Apple Hawthorns mature faster than the regular kind).

The Liger is technically an example of speciation in a single generation, with Ligers unable to mate.

More suitable examples are ring species.

Larus Gulls

The Herring Gull L. argentatus, which lives primarily in Great Britain and Ireland, can hybridize with the American Herring Gull L. smithsonianus, (living in North America), which can also hybridize with the Vega or East Siberian Herring Gull L. vegae, the western subspecies of which, Birula's Gull L. vegae birulai, can hybridize with Heuglin's gull L. heuglini, which in turn can hybridize with the Siberian Lesser Black-backed Gull L. fuscus. All four of these live across the north of Siberia. The last is the eastern representative of the Lesser Black-backed Gulls back in north-western Europe, including Great Britain.

The Lesser Black-backed Gulls and Herring Gulls are sufficiently different that they do not normally hybridize; thus the group of gulls forms a continuum except where the two lineages meet in Europe.

Ensatinas

The Ensatina salamander has been described as a ring species in the mountains surrounding the Californian Central Valley. The complex forms a horseshoe shape around the mountains, and though interbreeding can happen between each of the 19 populations around the horseshoe, the Ensatina eschscholtzii subspecies on the western end of the horseshoe cannot interbreed with the Ensatina klauberi on the eastern end. As such it is thought to be an example of incipient speciation, and provides an illustration of "nearly all stages in a speciation process".

There's also the Greenish Warbler in the Himalayas if you want to see another.
 

Griffolion

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Aug 18, 2009
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Zaik said:
Griffolion said:
Zaik said:
Oh noes, the evil Christians stole your friend and influenced him with their evil evilness, soon he'll be trying to get you to eat crackers with red wine with him.

On a serious note, get over it - and yourself.
I can kind of see the underlying point you're making. But you could have been a bit nicer to the OP...
I could have.

But I hate to waste good advice. Had I been nice about it he might have suspected I was turning the other cheek or something and therefore crazy.

If anything, I should have been more hostile, but the forum rules don't really allow for that.
May I ask what's crazy about turning the other cheek?
 

ThisIsSnake

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Mar 3, 2011
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xbox hero said:
humans don't evolve,they de volve .BEAR WITH ME!If they say that humans evolved from a monkey all the way to a normal human,then why are we having wars,now you say "But we have people who are artist,we have bigger brains and we are the more dominant species"And I say to that "So do apes" We are dominant because we want to be,hell.If we where birds we would be the dominant species!Apes maybe are more stupider then us,but that is a good thing.We don't need tehnology in our lifes and im a pc geek! The Point is.We didn't evolve,we just changed our look and got weaker.You get it now? it being evolution.
Evolution is not about getting stronger, faster and smarter. It's about adaptations, the fact there are well over 6 billion humans residing in areas ranging from the Sahara Desert to Antarctic research stations shows we are pretty well adapted.
 

Olrod

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Feb 11, 2010
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Either he was trolling you, in which case he deserves a slap, or he was being serious.

If he was being serious, I'd advise distancing yourself from him because he has some serious mental health issues which, without professional help, will only get worse.

That kind of cognitive dissonance can easily be assumed to be symptomatic of an underlying psychosis. Be wary.
 

xbox hero

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Jun 6, 2011
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ThisIsSnake said:
xbox hero said:
humans don't evolve,they de volve .BEAR WITH ME!If they say that humans evolved from a monkey all the way to a normal human,then why are we having wars,now you say "But we have people who are artist,we have bigger brains and we are the more dominant species"And I say to that "So do apes" We are dominant because we want to be,hell.If we where birds we would be the dominant species!Apes maybe are more stupider then us,but that is a good thing.We don't need tehnology in our lifes and im a pc geek! The Point is.We didn't evolve,we just changed our look and got weaker.You get it now? it being evolution.
Evolution is not about getting stronger, faster and smarter. It's about adaptations, the fact there are well over 6 billion humans residing in areas ranging from the Sahara Desert to Antarctic research stations shows we are pretty well adapted.
Did we really adapt?No,we changed the landscape to something we can adapt.And being faster and stronger is evolution,because it lets us adapt to more ruff places.An average human wouldn't last a week in places like jungles or deserts,yet other species do that,why is that?Because we are like little kids,we say that we can live in deserts,and yet we die in them.We just make stuff,and thats something ants are great at.What I am trying to say is that we aren't really the dominant species,and that we haven't evolved.Animals are better in every way then us.
 

Treefingers

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Aug 1, 2008
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Cool story. Not that bigger deal. I suggest everyone who get's their panties in a twist over this ought to get over themselves and go outside.
 

honestdiscussioner

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Jul 17, 2010
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There are some things that humans are not meant to understand . . . fine. I would ask him "clearly one of those things is NOT 'the list of things you aren't meant to understand'".

So while some thing aren't meant to be known, people ARE able to know with relative certainty which things those are? Strange.

I noticed that he doesn't deny evolution, only that humans are a part of it. He has no basis then for second half. If he doesn't believe Genesis is meant to be taken literally, then there is nothing that require humanity to be poofed into existence like that. So he can't know that that is one of the things "not meant to be understood".

As for why he thinks this, because religious dogma can block even the most rational of thought.
 

Zukhramm

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Jul 9, 2008
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xbox hero said:
ThisIsSnake said:
xbox hero said:
humans don't evolve,they de volve .BEAR WITH ME!If they say that humans evolved from a monkey all the way to a normal human,then why are we having wars,now you say "But we have people who are artist,we have bigger brains and we are the more dominant species"And I say to that "So do apes" We are dominant because we want to be,hell.If we where birds we would be the dominant species!Apes maybe are more stupider then us,but that is a good thing.We don't need tehnology in our lifes and im a pc geek! The Point is.We didn't evolve,we just changed our look and got weaker.You get it now? it being evolution.
Evolution is not about getting stronger, faster and smarter. It's about adaptations, the fact there are well over 6 billion humans residing in areas ranging from the Sahara Desert to Antarctic research stations shows we are pretty well adapted.
Did we really adapt?No,we changed the landscape to something we can adapt.And being faster and stronger is evolution,because it lets us adapt to more ruff places.An average human wouldn't last a week in places like jungles or deserts,yet other species do that,why is that?Because we are like little kids,we say that we can live in deserts,and yet we die in them.We just make stuff,and thats something ants are great at.What I am trying to say is that we aren't really the dominant species,and that we haven't evolved.Animals are better in every way then us.
Our ability to create tools to survive in areas we would not be able to live in without them is not a weakness or in any way just like fish are not weak because they couldn't live underwater without gills.
 

ThisIsSnake

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Mar 3, 2011
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xbox hero said:
ThisIsSnake said:
Did we really adapt?No,we changed the landscape to something we can adapt.And being faster and stronger is evolution,because it lets us adapt to more ruff places.An average human wouldn't last a week in places like jungles or deserts,yet other species do that,why is that?Because we are like little kids,we say that we can live in deserts,and yet we die in them.We just make stuff,and thats something ants are great at.What I am trying to say is that we aren't really the dominant species,and that we haven't evolved.Animals are better in every way then us.
Yes we for seriously adapted. We came from apes in Africa, that was our speciation. We eliminated our Homo genus brothers from the planet and through the rise of civilisation have produced highly advanced societies all over the world. Skin colours are evidence of adaptation, with darker skin more suited to warm climates and light skin suited to colder enviroments. But that's a controversial one.

The Sherpas in Nepal are a great example of adaptations.

Sherpas are renowned in the international climbing and mountaineering community for their hardiness, expertise, and experience at high altitudes. It has been speculated that a portion of the Sherpas' climbing ability is the result of a genetic adaptation to living in high altitudes. Some of these adaptations include unique hemoglobin-binding enzymes, doubled nitric oxide production, hearts that can utilize glucose, and lungs with an increased efficiency in low oxygen conditions.

There are a group of people in Italy who have a high resistance to heart disease. HIV resistant families in Africa etc.

Fun fact: humans are animals, we have an IUCN conservation status and everything.

The real world isn't pokemon.
 

DanielSPG

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Nov 10, 2009
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IsraelRocks said:
So when this guy, who is probably the smartest guy I ever met told me he didn't believe that humans are apart of evolution it blew me away. To make things worse he said "there are some things that humans are meant NOT to understand. and we are both Comp-Sci majors so rational thought is a given.
So..... WTF?!?!
Well although I wouldn't phrase it like he does I think he has a point. There are things humans simply can not comprehend despite overwhelming evidence to it's existance. (I consider myself a rationalistic atheist with a christian upbringing btw, just to put my post in context)

Certain things, for example, death, eternity and to a certain point evolution can not be truly comprehended by humans because the context of our existance is so insignificant. We can learn about the things that happened before we were born but it will never have the same impact as the things that happen in our actual lives. As we're always conscious of our surroundings we can not possibly imagine not being here when we die. These are just the obvious examples but its in the little things as well. Why do we get emotional from music etc etc.. If you wish to call these experiences God then I consider that a fair definition of faith.

Although evolution is a very plausible theory it's specifics have not been proven. And even if we could map it out exactly and without doubt, there is still the matter of what started it all, and what came before.

One more brain teasers for all anti faith, rationalists (including myself):

Let's say the Big Bang theory is valid, and even though we don't know exactly what caused it it did happen. Then what are the odds of it only happening ONCE? And if it happened more then once (quite likely given before's statement) what does that mean? Parallel universe maybe?

Damn now I have to choose between being a creationist or a whackjob that believes in parallel universes