They shouldn't have too. It's a business choice who and what to cater too. Let them choose for themselves what they want. If they choose to cater to woman then that's fine. I have no problems with that. It's the entitlement attitude of feminists in general that I hate. You have no rights, play nice. That old Bungie saying holds a lot of truth still today. The world doesn't revolve around you or making up for what men did in the past. Shutup, grow up, and work.GamingBlaze said:
When Did "Girls In Games" Become Such an Issue?
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On the flip side, my experience is like the OP's - in the 80s, there wasn't a huge gender gap, and games were marketed to both boys and girls (and both men and women). I think that came later, although I couldn't quite pinpoint the exact time (and I've no idea why it happened).briankoontz said:
As an aside, I also don't think that gaming was a particularly "geeky" thing in the 80s, so part of me wonders if that shift went along with the gender one.
Heh, my mother (who is 66 years old and not only plays current games but who's had an arcade cabinet in her basement for 30 years) would disagree with that.
More seriously though, I'd be curious to hear what that theory is based on, because in my experience with older (aged 50+) gamers is pretty similar to that with younger (under 25) gamers, in that I don't see many major differences between men and woman. The biggest gap that I see is the middle aged group, which I find curious since a huge number of them would have grown up before the gaming was quite so male-identified.
Just among my current co-workers (mostly aged 30-45), the male gamers (who I'm identifying based on listing gaming as a hobby on our corporate social board, which is imperfect, I realize) outnumber the women by about 5:1. And yet when I was a kid, among my classmates it would have been maybe 2:1 if not completely even. So I suppose I I think the more interesting question would be asking what happened to that particular generation that caused so many of the women to leave the hobby?
It's a young industry, with the main following being young people. Insecurities of various sorts are always unavoidable, particularly in an enviroment like this. Espescially in a time like this, when everything is unsecure. In the words of Dwarf Fortress, "It was inevitable".
While it'll be a while and be terribly uncomfortable, it'll pass. All changes pass, leaving room for the next one.
While it'll be a while and be terribly uncomfortable, it'll pass. All changes pass, leaving room for the next one.
Laying the groundwork for a future Feminist Occupied Government, no doubt.Guerilla said:
Eh, it's been years since I pretended to be a guy, hopefully it's not so shitty any more.Agayek said:
It's just easier in multiplayer to let the other people assume you are a dude and then never correct them. I occasionally play a game or two with voice chat, where that's obviously not possible, and I'm always myself on MMO's- but you guys probably play games with more girls than you think, so that's a positive.
Eh, that remark has always annoyed me because of how little sense it makes. It's kind of like- what do you want us to do, tour?Agayek said:
Like this:
No gender are the `real gamers`. People who play games are.briankoontz said:
Well, Gamers have become a larger, more diverse market due to the growth of the mobile games, changes in direction, and even to an extent, rise of the Indies. Since "games" are such a vague term, it covers an incredible swath of territory and new demographics, naturally the new segments of the market and diversity will become apparent and want titles and ideas to cater to them.
I just think it's important to keep in mind that 50% of our race is not male, and as more women gamers come to their own consciousness of their "slice" of the Gamer identity, they will feel the need to voice their opinions, wants and desires.
Inclusivity means to acknowledge the growth of the market. And in my opinion, will continue to grow.
As for the entire Gamergate mess, it actually is a rampaging barfight at this juncture, and in my opinion actually bears little importance to the growth of the gamer market, and the title of Gamer getting a meaning or expanding its definition. As I've said in the past, moronic feminists like to ***** really loudly - only a handful of progressives will actually work on catering to the market and promoting female identity. Hopefully, despite the shit-fest, we'll see more women join the development scene as the gaming market matures.
I just think it's important to keep in mind that 50% of our race is not male, and as more women gamers come to their own consciousness of their "slice" of the Gamer identity, they will feel the need to voice their opinions, wants and desires.
Inclusivity means to acknowledge the growth of the market. And in my opinion, will continue to grow.
As for the entire Gamergate mess, it actually is a rampaging barfight at this juncture, and in my opinion actually bears little importance to the growth of the gamer market, and the title of Gamer getting a meaning or expanding its definition. As I've said in the past, moronic feminists like to ***** really loudly - only a handful of progressives will actually work on catering to the market and promoting female identity. Hopefully, despite the shit-fest, we'll see more women join the development scene as the gaming market matures.
I actually think this topic is really interesting!
So, I'm a woman, 25 and from Europe, so I don't know if the experience is sharable with everyone, but back when I was in primary school (let's say age 7 onwards) EVERYONE owned a GameBoy and Pokémon. Regardless of gender. I played gameboy and swapped games with my guy friends (so everyone could play more games; I remember my parents getting loads of Gameboy games for me really cheap on the flea markets so yeah it was actually all kind of cool) and I roleplayed Pokémon with plushies with my girl friends and of course we all played the GameBoy games. (Strangely, I was never interested in the anime, but I had a female friend who was rabid about that too).
Nobody questioned it, actually it was fun because like being 8 and 9 usually is an age where it's more like "girls/boys have cooties" thing but trading Pokemon was possible with everyone. This even extended to the Card Games and trading the Cards.
I've gamed my whole life and had lots of guy and girl friends who I gamed with. I used to play Lucas Arts games like Loom and other Point and Click like Kings Quest and Space Quest with my two sisters and my female neighbor. I used to play worms armageddon and SNES with my male neighbour. I used to play PS2 on my own
And when I got older, I really got into the survivor horror genre (did anyone actually notice that that has many female protagonists? Love the fatal frame series!). We used to gather up in our clique which consisted of girls and boys (mostly girls though), like really, 5-8 people aged 16-17 and treated it like a DVD evening but actually playing Fatal Frame 1. It was nice because I used to even be really scared back then. Now we played so many survival horror games nothing actually frightens us anymore... Good times back then!
That was about 8 years ago.
I think it actually has to do more with the internet being kinda excluding for women. Never I thought this hobby wasn't for us but when I started playing MMOS. Then as soon as someone noticed I was "really a girl" the coming ons and harassment started and sadly I then started to pretend being a boy, too, just because I felt that I was taken more seriously like that.
So long story short, does anyone see that connection with online gaming too or did I just have a really happy childhood over here in Europe?
So, I'm a woman, 25 and from Europe, so I don't know if the experience is sharable with everyone, but back when I was in primary school (let's say age 7 onwards) EVERYONE owned a GameBoy and Pokémon. Regardless of gender. I played gameboy and swapped games with my guy friends (so everyone could play more games; I remember my parents getting loads of Gameboy games for me really cheap on the flea markets so yeah it was actually all kind of cool) and I roleplayed Pokémon with plushies with my girl friends and of course we all played the GameBoy games. (Strangely, I was never interested in the anime, but I had a female friend who was rabid about that too).
Nobody questioned it, actually it was fun because like being 8 and 9 usually is an age where it's more like "girls/boys have cooties" thing but trading Pokemon was possible with everyone. This even extended to the Card Games and trading the Cards.
I've gamed my whole life and had lots of guy and girl friends who I gamed with. I used to play Lucas Arts games like Loom and other Point and Click like Kings Quest and Space Quest with my two sisters and my female neighbor. I used to play worms armageddon and SNES with my male neighbour. I used to play PS2 on my own
And when I got older, I really got into the survivor horror genre (did anyone actually notice that that has many female protagonists? Love the fatal frame series!). We used to gather up in our clique which consisted of girls and boys (mostly girls though), like really, 5-8 people aged 16-17 and treated it like a DVD evening but actually playing Fatal Frame 1. It was nice because I used to even be really scared back then. Now we played so many survival horror games nothing actually frightens us anymore... Good times back then! That was about 8 years ago.
I think it actually has to do more with the internet being kinda excluding for women. Never I thought this hobby wasn't for us but when I started playing MMOS. Then as soon as someone noticed I was "really a girl" the coming ons and harassment started and sadly I then started to pretend being a boy, too, just because I felt that I was taken more seriously like that.
So long story short, does anyone see that connection with online gaming too or did I just have a really happy childhood over here in Europe?
I have no idea,
I've played games since I was a little girl. My mom bought me my consoles and handhelds and let me pick out games. I was an only child so it was just something I did at home by myself, I never really had friends who were into gaming so I never discussed it with them. I just played games that appealed to me, still do.
My first real experience with "gaming culture" was when I started regularly using the Internet. I have no idea when it became an issue because as far as discussion on video games goes, I was rather late to the party.
I think this thread demonstrates some perfect examples as to why some women might not feel totally welcome within "gaming culture" though.
I've played games since I was a little girl. My mom bought me my consoles and handhelds and let me pick out games. I was an only child so it was just something I did at home by myself, I never really had friends who were into gaming so I never discussed it with them. I just played games that appealed to me, still do.
My first real experience with "gaming culture" was when I started regularly using the Internet. I have no idea when it became an issue because as far as discussion on video games goes, I was rather late to the party.
I think this thread demonstrates some perfect examples as to why some women might not feel totally welcome within "gaming culture" though.
Just to give a frame of reference I was born in 1985 and I'm turning 29 this Sunday. It wasn't until I was in middle school that it dawned on me that half of the things that I enjoyed were considered "boys things". But that's probably because when I was in elementary school I would go play video games with my friends and at that point all of my friends were girls.
My parents weren't exactally liberal when it comes to gender roles but they both like nerdy things. Generally horror and the supernatural/fantasy movies and tv shows on my mother's side and scifi and sword and sorcery movies and tv shows on my father's but they would cross genres from time to time. So me growing up and liking speculative fiction books, comics, and anime was a pretty natural progression. And so I was pretty baffled when my male middle school classmates were surprised that I knew so much about Pokemon...Pokemon. Like what universe were they in that people our age in America didn't know about Pokemon regardless of gender? The other girls in my class weren't too big on geeky things but there were girls in other classes that shared my interest so I hung out with them. On the internet back then it didn't take me long to learn that not mentioning my sex and race was for the best.
By the time time I was in high school I stooped caring about trying to avoid idiots on the internet on mainstream sites and found smaller sites where I could just talk about the media I enjoyed without having to hide parts of myself, and met a small mix of girls and guys at my school who played games. This was also the time that I found out that liking JRPG's was a girly thing and that they were girly games...Even though I knew plenty of guys who liked them as well. I guess since they did draw a larger female audience (probably for the same reason why more girls read manga instead of superhero comics back then) that was enough to have them pegged as the girly genre.
I attended an Art and Design college so everyone was some sort of nerd. It was geek heaven. Now I'm back to being around normal people during the weekday and it sucks.
My parents weren't exactally liberal when it comes to gender roles but they both like nerdy things. Generally horror and the supernatural/fantasy movies and tv shows on my mother's side and scifi and sword and sorcery movies and tv shows on my father's but they would cross genres from time to time. So me growing up and liking speculative fiction books, comics, and anime was a pretty natural progression. And so I was pretty baffled when my male middle school classmates were surprised that I knew so much about Pokemon...Pokemon. Like what universe were they in that people our age in America didn't know about Pokemon regardless of gender? The other girls in my class weren't too big on geeky things but there were girls in other classes that shared my interest so I hung out with them. On the internet back then it didn't take me long to learn that not mentioning my sex and race was for the best.
By the time time I was in high school I stooped caring about trying to avoid idiots on the internet on mainstream sites and found smaller sites where I could just talk about the media I enjoyed without having to hide parts of myself, and met a small mix of girls and guys at my school who played games. This was also the time that I found out that liking JRPG's was a girly thing and that they were girly games...Even though I knew plenty of guys who liked them as well. I guess since they did draw a larger female audience (probably for the same reason why more girls read manga instead of superhero comics back then) that was enough to have them pegged as the girly genre.
I attended an Art and Design college so everyone was some sort of nerd. It was geek heaven. Now I'm back to being around normal people during the weekday and it sucks.
Also I would like to add that I was in a shop that sells only used DVD/games/consoles the other day and that little girl and her mother walked in and the girl got herself a DS and some games for her birthday. She casually demanded Pokémon, Nintendogs and Bomberman. So I actually thought that maybe times haven't changed so much from my childhood but it's more an age thing? Like games just aren't for girls anymore when they reach a certain age (eg puberty) and start to be more subjected to peer backlash (maybe centered on the internet)?
Edit: Maybe games also younger kids can play just aren't as male-centered advertised as games teens and upwards can play (like CoD and FPS in general), so that may be an issue too.
Edit: Maybe games also younger kids can play just aren't as male-centered advertised as games teens and upwards can play (like CoD and FPS in general), so that may be an issue too.
How it became an issue:
1. Some feminists pointed out that the majority of mainstream games don't portray women in a very positive light.
2. The manchildren in the gaming community (a distressing majority) began alternating between screaming "NUH-UH" and trying to prove that their favorite games did not have blatantly sexist overtones, or asserting that the dumb cunts should shut up and get back in the kitchen.
3. Some attention-seekers began making extreme "feminist" arguments, giving the manchildren the strawmen they so desperately wished to flog.
4. The rest of us stand outside this shitstorm, occasionally dodging clumps of feces-caked straw while we try to just play our damn games, in full acknowledgement that, yes, some of them can be pretty sexist and that we should probably do something about it.
1. Some feminists pointed out that the majority of mainstream games don't portray women in a very positive light.
2. The manchildren in the gaming community (a distressing majority) began alternating between screaming "NUH-UH" and trying to prove that their favorite games did not have blatantly sexist overtones, or asserting that the dumb cunts should shut up and get back in the kitchen.
3. Some attention-seekers began making extreme "feminist" arguments, giving the manchildren the strawmen they so desperately wished to flog.
4. The rest of us stand outside this shitstorm, occasionally dodging clumps of feces-caked straw while we try to just play our damn games, in full acknowledgement that, yes, some of them can be pretty sexist and that we should probably do something about it.
Were you by any chance born in the 80's? Or grow up during them? Because my memory of that time was that videogames were marketed principally to children. The expectation would be that you'd grow out of gaming as you got older, and it was a less socially acceptable thing to do in adolescence and adulthood. The sort of nerdy subculture that persisted in playing games into adulthood tended, for a variety of societal and historical reasons, to be primarily male. This squares with what you and the OP seem to remember (and my experience as well) - that videogames were marketed to children roughly equally, and the more mature, less child-centric games were marketed more towards the (primarily male) nerd audience.Raikas said:
It came about because video games has always been a hot bed for politics(Violence and ect). Women are not represented well in certain games, and get rightly pointed out as such. However, it also gets a lot of hyperbole how systemic the problem is, so then you get infighting among those afraid it is another Jack Thompson rally. The reality is video games have gotten big enough now, that it can be used for social commentary. Some consumers dont know how to handle this, and assume their games are going to go away(they wont, they make too much money) and then you have journalists who have no idea how to handle culture critic video's all being petrified to touch it, outside of saying that it is practically perfect OR they mention in passing "ya probably not the best but hey we need it".
Video games are now as relevant as sports and movies. We just have to start getting used to the idea that video games can now be used as a tool for both politics and culture criticism and respond accordingly, with debating why you disagree, without getting personal.
Video games are now as relevant as sports and movies. We just have to start getting used to the idea that video games can now be used as a tool for both politics and culture criticism and respond accordingly, with debating why you disagree, without getting personal.
I wasn't really aware girls playing games was unusual until I played an MMO, when I was 13. Until then I grew up on Sonic games on the Sega Genesis, PS1 games like Spyro and Creatures, and Pokemon games. My brother was the bigger gamer at first, but as he got older he slowly drifted away from games and I drifted closer. I didn't really have any gamer friends until later in high school, and my parents continued to indulge my interest, so the fact that I was a girl never came into it.
Then when I started playing an MMO I learned that being an actual female was a novelty, and later on heard about Halo and all the wonderful harassment that went on there. I never played Halo, and I'm lucky to say I haven't really experienced anything too horrible in the harassment department. I played TF2 regularly for a few years and only had a few incidents where somebody made a big deal about my being female, but they didn't have much power so couldn't actually kick me from the server. I had one person ask me to cyber in that MMO, and I haven't yet had a situation in a game store where the clerk patronizes me or assumes I'm shopping for someone else.
So to answer the titular question, I really don't know. I guess for some it's always been a big deal, and for others it's not a big deal at all. Then when these people get on the Internet suddenly they have an echo chamber available for airing their gripes and news about this "issue" can easily spread and fester.
Then when I started playing an MMO I learned that being an actual female was a novelty, and later on heard about Halo and all the wonderful harassment that went on there. I never played Halo, and I'm lucky to say I haven't really experienced anything too horrible in the harassment department. I played TF2 regularly for a few years and only had a few incidents where somebody made a big deal about my being female, but they didn't have much power so couldn't actually kick me from the server. I had one person ask me to cyber in that MMO, and I haven't yet had a situation in a game store where the clerk patronizes me or assumes I'm shopping for someone else.
So to answer the titular question, I really don't know. I guess for some it's always been a big deal, and for others it's not a big deal at all. Then when these people get on the Internet suddenly they have an echo chamber available for airing their gripes and news about this "issue" can easily spread and fester.
It was always an issue. People are just finally starting to talk about it now.
It'd be like living in the times of women's suffrage and asking when women not being able to vote became a huge issue. It was always an issue, it was just never talked about in any seriousness before then.
It'd be like living in the times of women's suffrage and asking when women not being able to vote became a huge issue. It was always an issue, it was just never talked about in any seriousness before then.
It's been said above, but I'll echo it again.
Gaming was a fringe enthusiast hobby and a refuge for certain types of people - mostly boys, but there were girls as well - while growing up. I was with a group of friends who happened to like games, and we were bullied for it. It wasn't just physical, there were times when it was verbal, and times when it was done by women. In certain situations there was nothing worse than being emasculated by a woman in front of a crowd, and that happened to me and several of my friends. Of course, I got over it as did my friends, and none of us blame women or are angry at them for that. Not even the ones that did it to us. It's better to forgive and forget, but sometimes that's not always possible.
I think there are remnants of that in the gaming community. I think it's a societal issue related to gender, and it permeates everywhere, not just gaming.
It's also propagated by culture and marketing. I mean some marketing for some products makes misogyny in gaming practically childs play. That Dr.Pepper "Not for Women" commercial comes to mind.
Then there is the fact that gaming has become mainstream seemingly overnight. This is the part where I reach out to other people in the thread and declare my own age. I'm 25. When I was finishing high school I think that was the time Assassins Creed first came out. The landscape was just VERY different back then. Like, sometime during my time at Uni it became acceptable, and it was just another thing. Does that seem familiar to anyone? I'm not the only who got that vibe, right? That's why #GamerGate was something I thought was important. It may be silly to call yourself a gamer. Gamer may be a silly term, but it's a thing now. When I went to meet and greets/date nights whatever at Uni you'd meet lots of people and give them the cliffnotes of your hobbies and such. I play videogames. It's a hobby just like running, golfing, playing guitar, and reading. It's not a big deal, but as soon as I mention that I play games, I get called a gamer. It just happens.
But with that said, I think such a culture shock tend to bring with it change. And I think this change was rapid. And let's face it, not all gamers are socially well adjusted individuals.
Thing is though, that's not stopping women. If gamergate taught me anything it's that there are seemingly tons of women out there in gaming, and they love AAA games. I dunno, maybe that's just the small lens I've been looking through. But I think it's not something to dismiss out of hand, either. Like Guppy said, the issues in the gaming community are very insular due to the nature in which they are confined. That is to say, websites and forums such as Kotaku, Reddit, 4chan, Something Awful, and here. Most people don't bother themselves with it, and remain oblivious.
It's just a small group of assholes being assholes. This is a people problem. Theres always going to be a % of assholes in a group. As the sample size increases the raw number of assholes gets larger.
Gaming was a fringe enthusiast hobby and a refuge for certain types of people - mostly boys, but there were girls as well - while growing up. I was with a group of friends who happened to like games, and we were bullied for it. It wasn't just physical, there were times when it was verbal, and times when it was done by women. In certain situations there was nothing worse than being emasculated by a woman in front of a crowd, and that happened to me and several of my friends. Of course, I got over it as did my friends, and none of us blame women or are angry at them for that. Not even the ones that did it to us. It's better to forgive and forget, but sometimes that's not always possible.
I think there are remnants of that in the gaming community. I think it's a societal issue related to gender, and it permeates everywhere, not just gaming.
It's also propagated by culture and marketing. I mean some marketing for some products makes misogyny in gaming practically childs play. That Dr.Pepper "Not for Women" commercial comes to mind.
Then there is the fact that gaming has become mainstream seemingly overnight. This is the part where I reach out to other people in the thread and declare my own age. I'm 25. When I was finishing high school I think that was the time Assassins Creed first came out. The landscape was just VERY different back then. Like, sometime during my time at Uni it became acceptable, and it was just another thing. Does that seem familiar to anyone? I'm not the only who got that vibe, right? That's why #GamerGate was something I thought was important. It may be silly to call yourself a gamer. Gamer may be a silly term, but it's a thing now. When I went to meet and greets/date nights whatever at Uni you'd meet lots of people and give them the cliffnotes of your hobbies and such. I play videogames. It's a hobby just like running, golfing, playing guitar, and reading. It's not a big deal, but as soon as I mention that I play games, I get called a gamer. It just happens.
But with that said, I think such a culture shock tend to bring with it change. And I think this change was rapid. And let's face it, not all gamers are socially well adjusted individuals.
Thing is though, that's not stopping women. If gamergate taught me anything it's that there are seemingly tons of women out there in gaming, and they love AAA games. I dunno, maybe that's just the small lens I've been looking through. But I think it's not something to dismiss out of hand, either. Like Guppy said, the issues in the gaming community are very insular due to the nature in which they are confined. That is to say, websites and forums such as Kotaku, Reddit, 4chan, Something Awful, and here. Most people don't bother themselves with it, and remain oblivious.
It's just a small group of assholes being assholes. This is a people problem. Theres always going to be a % of assholes in a group. As the sample size increases the raw number of assholes gets larger.
Which is funny, because with me, since everquest in 1999 I've always played MMO's with women, and some of my best friends play them with me. I mean, statistically women are not THAT much of a minority in WoW in the US.Lilani said:
http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/04/09/nielsen-wow-is-most-played-core-game-by-25-54-females/
This is from 2009, I'd imagine the ratio is even better now.