When Did "Girls In Games" Become Such an Issue?

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Entitled

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Zachary Amaranth said:
I've been speaking with a few people, a couple from here, all roughly my age. They all sort of remember the same thing to one extent or another, and some of them are girls who don't remember it being an issue that they were playing video games. It seems like something change, so I'm going to presume that's true and ask: what changed?
I thinkit was 2011, and the Supreme Court's Brown v. EMA decision.

At the time, Moviebob made a video about it [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0mP1kEMF5E#t=5m10s], that you should probably watch. It's predictions didn't specifically come true, but it's premise still seems relevant.

Basically, the idea is that for a long time, gamers couldn't afford to be culture warring among themselves, because we were at war with Jack Thompson and the likes trying to stiffle the medium with a moral panic could have easily become the next Hays Code, or the next Comics Code.

At the time, any game journalist editorial article saying that "even if gaming culture might not be a public menace, it still has some off-putting aspects", would have been quote mined by Fox News, so everyone kept their head down and circled the wagons against The Enemyinstead of being introspective.

That video mostly talkes about violence and gun culture in games, but the same can be applied to sexism.

Nowadays, with games being a constitutionally defended form of free speech, we are incapable of truly being "under attack" to the same degree. So if some editorial says that "gaming is dead because of misogynerds", or whatever, then SOME people might go back to a similar routine of circling the wagons and utterly denying that there is anything sexist ever happening inside gaming, but suddenly there are also plenty who feel comfortable ignoring the anti-gamer way of phrasing the problem as just impotent noise that can't REALLY kill gaming, and keep talking about how neverthless there really IS a massive misogyny problem in gaming.

"This discussion makes us all look bad" suddenly doesn't cut it, when it's not a survival tactic, but pure vanity.
 

Phasmal

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briankoontz said:
Phasmal said:
No gender are the `real gamers`. People who play games are.
On no issue are the genders exactly equal. On feminism for example women dominate, not because men are stupid or insensitive, but because feminism is more central to women's lives. So by this analogy women are the "real feminists". This is a widely held belief, and results in male feminists not being treated as seriously as female feminists.
I guess you could say that's a widely held belief, one I don't share.

However, feminism deals with gender at it's very core. Gaming does not. I do not think it is appropriate to compare the two.

briankoontz said:
Of course anyone can be a gamer. An alien, coming down to earth in 2014, who plays video games could be defined as a "gamer". That's an empirical reality, but there's a big difference in cultural history between an alien who plays earth video games and an earthling who is much more deeply invested in it.

What games *mean* to someone matters a lot. This differs by individual, but it also differs by gender, and by species in the case of the alien. Someone whose first game is Farmville and plays it to have some virtual interactions with friends is an extremely *different* gamer from one who has played thousands of video games from dozens of different sub-genres.
Okay, this bit just didn't make sense to me, but this is the one I want an answer to.
What do games MEAN to me, as a woman? What do they MEAN to my boyfriend, as a man? How are we different*?

*And this is assuming we have the same individual experience. So the only thing different is our gender.
What cultural history have I missed out on?
 

Gethsemani_v1legacy

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I can't tell you when it began, but I know that by the early 00's, me and my sister going to LAN parties was a huge deal. I did it the first time back in 2001 and back then a girl liking computer games was a big thing. It only escalated from there up until I pretty much gave up on social gaming in 2009, when I stopped attending LAN parties and playing MMOs. I can't recall a time when I've entered someone else's party (physical or virtual, like guilds) and hasn't received looks, questions or strange come ons because of my gender, or people trying to "teach me the game", help me "optimize" Windows or talked to me about games on such a shallow level that they must have thought I was five years old ("The graphics are very pretty in this game").

The actual push back against this kind of boy's club attitude is far more recent though and as far as I can tell it really rose into prominence around the time for the Tropes vs Women Kickstarter and the whole discussion about "fake girl gamers", which correlates with the time that Felicia Day and a bunch of other b-list celebrities professed their love for games. So back in 2012?
 

Belaam

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Zachary Amaranth said:
It's just weird to me because it's suddenly treated like a new deal that there are girls playing games.

I've been speaking with a few people, a couple from here, all roughly my age. They all sort of remember the same thing to one extent or another, and some of them are girls who don't remember it being an issue that they were playing video games. It seems like something change, so I'm going to presume that's true and ask: what changed?
I'd honestly blame it on two things:

First, the rise of the Triple-A FPS genre. It tended to try to sell their games as super macho; the communities are among the worst for misogyny and homophobia; and they tended to have the biggest marketing budgets for a while. Additionally, they also often presented themselves as the face of gaming. I definitely felt that there was a window where gaming=FPS in the general public. So if "gaming" is super macho FPS, then gaming is exclusively male. And yes, I know many women who play FPS games, but most either join all female squads or deal with a good bit of harassment/flirting.

Secondly, there does seem to be more of a rise in gender divided toys. Yes, there's the pink aisle, but there's also a distinct absence of girls in the "boy's" aisle. Not only are you going to have trouble finding female superheros toys, you're going to have trouble finding kid's clothing with mixed gender teams. If you think superhero team cartoons, you've got things like Justice League Unlimited with dozens of female heroes, Teen Titans with a 2:3 ratio, etc. Today, you've got Avengers Assemble, where Black Widow shows up occasionally, one of the Bro Heroes makes a comment about women, and she disappears for a few episodes. I'm not sure if it's actually a societal shift, or just a marketing one, but there definitely seems to be a trend.

As for why it's become more vocal, I think it's a mix of both younger female players getting old enough to notice the disparity / change and being willing to talk about it and parents of girls who don't like what the future of gaming/comics looks like for their daughters. I get my daughters every female superhero thing I can stumble across, but most of the best stuff is from 10+ years ago, and it is usually difficult to find current stuff. So you've got both more inequality than you had 15+ years ago, a bigger divide between gender marketing, and a larger group complaining about it. Oh, and you also have this small, but vocal group of misogynists who do get really freaked out by women wanting more of a balance. Oddly, many of these seem to be younger players who don't seem to get that women (like my sisters) have been gaming for longer than they've been alive. It's like they think there was a golden age of macho gaming where women "knew their place" and they want to go back there, even though such a time never existed.
 

Melaphont

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It mainly became a buzzword, I think, when the internet became a thing. We all know trolls like to try and be has hateful as possible, so ya. Between all the racial slurs, sexist remarks, and just straight up harassment, I think the internet is the biggest reason for perception. People, for some reason, associate the internet as representative of real life. I've been of the opinion there are intenet people and persona's and then their is real life and real life rarely matches up to the internet, imo.
 

runequester

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Well....

1: Our culture now is a lot more progressive than it was in the 80's. People have seen improvements in representation and inclusiveness elsewhere so they expect it to be the case in games as well.

2: Companies constantly tell us that they need to get more "mass market appeal" but that always seems to mean "cover based shooting" and never "play a character other than a brown haired muscle man with a dark past who murders people while talking like he ate too much kitty litter".

Games where you can create your own character are far more memorable and have far more investment for me than some generic space marine.

3: Pick your favourite Atari or NES game. Show the sprite for the main character to your grand mother and see if she can tell what it is.
Now do the same with the protagonist from whichever AAA game just came out.

It never mattered because you couldn't tell in any event. Now we can tell and developers want to tell meaningful stories.
 

Something Amyss

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shrekfan246 said:
This is conspiracy theory-level conjecture and I have no evidence, but I think the general movement towards "realistic" graphics might have been part of it.

It changed the way games were marketed. Once things like Halo started dominating the market, advertising started becoming more and more "male"-centric. That combined with publishers looking at the success of Halo and saying "We need to get on that!" likely continued to move the perception of "gaming" more firmly into the "boy's club" territory.
I don't think you're completely off base, at the very least. Shooters, at least on a base level, are cheaper and easier to make, especially with all the toolkits out there for them. It makes absolute sense that this would be what publishers decided to focus on. The irony is that at some point, they disappeared up their own rears, what with the costs of making games like the CoD series and big explosions and shiny graphics. But I'm not sure they're any worse on cost than other big budget games, though the lack of transparency in gaming means we'll probably never know.

Not The Bees said:
Maybe instead of wanting to separate everyone into groups, gamers here, journalists there, D&D people there, comic book geeks here, we should make them all sit at a damn table and just hang out. Play a game of Munchkin, have a beer, eat some pizza, and relax. Maybe we should be wanting them to be friends. Maybe the fact that we're not all friends is the reason that the rift happened in the first place. Or maybe we should just sit down and play some damn Mario Kart and laugh about old times again (well, old times for me at least).
God, you reminded me of the grudge matches that would often arise between D&D players and WoD players. Because WoD was storytelling for mature adults and D&D was powergaming for immature munchkins or....Something? I don't know. I enjoyed them both for different reasons. X v Y seems pretty common, I guess.

Because I'm old. That's the joke.
You're like three years younger than me, whipersnapper! You're still but a child!

Phasmal said:
To be honest, the funniest thing is that I'm not even sure which issue about girls in gaming you're talking about, because we've got so many!
I sort of meant it in general, to be honest. ALL The issues. ALL the controversies. ALL the news that's fit to....Wait. Because there's a lot out there, and I don't think they're all that disconnected from one another.

I mean, I think a lot of the things you've talked about all stem from a similar source, if not maybe the same source. But I could be wrong.
 

Phasmal

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Phasmal said:
To be honest, the funniest thing is that I'm not even sure which issue about girls in gaming you're talking about, because we've got so many!
I sort of meant it in general, to be honest. ALL The issues. ALL the controversies. ALL the news that's fit to....Wait. Because there's a lot out there, and I don't think they're all that disconnected from one another.

I mean, I think a lot of the things you've talked about all stem from a similar source, if not maybe the same source. But I could be wrong.
No, I think you're right.

I'm still waiting on someone to tell me the secrets of what gaming means to women and men and how it's different (c'mon dude don't leave me hangin')- but I think you're spot on.

Part of me thinks there are just a subset of people who have just decided that women are on the `outside` of gaming, no matter how long we've been around. I mean, think about it, always with the discussion of girls in games you get the `people just showing up/casual gamers/I never knew girl gamers when I was a kid` kind of stuff.

And when you add in-group favouritism, it's bound to stir up some treehouse level shit.
 

nightmare_gorilla

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this is going to make me sound like an asshole but I don't think there is an "issue" with girls in games. within games themselves women are treated about as fairly as they are in any other medium which is to say not very fairly at all. but I think video games often times do better job with women than movies and tv shows they just have a larger library to draw from because they've been around longer. I think all media could do a better job being more inclusive without being exploitative but in games yeah we still have a ways to go but it's not nearly as bad as some would want you to believe.

look there are people in every industry who try to make a profit by stirring up the shit it's just a little harder for us because I believe a large number of gamers are social outcasts and we don't all know how to human so good yet. Many of us found acceptance through gaming so when we feel it being attacked or "called out" as it were we tend to freak out a bit more than others. and honestly most of this shit is driven by internet culture not gamer culture. I think face to face, person to person men and women gamers get along fine I mean we're all too focused on "Kill that mother FKING boss!!!" to hate each other. I've said this a million times before but the "OMG NEWB ******" 15 yr old screaming has more to do with call of duty and madden than it does with Microsoft or gamers in general. playing co-op games I meet way more awesome people than bad people, borderlands 2, gears of war, marvel ultimate alliance, I've had great online experiences with these games and the people who play them. just randomly jumping into games or having people drop in on mine, mostly good stuff.

I feel the need to share this story in particular. last week even I was playing marvel heroes which is a comic book nerd f2p mmo so it's gotta be awful online culture right? no it's awesome people tend to talk about comics a lot and classic games and the only debates that get heated are who would win in a fight. but last week two people were having the misogyny debate and dominating the social chat. one person just being silly said "if I had a million dollars i'd buy an emu." so I simply replied "are you suggesting fair market value of an emu should be 1 million dollars?" and in a matter of minutes the two idiots were drowned out by a rousing debate of the outrageous emu market. which is what i'd like to see happen more often, the few extremists on both sides trying to get at each other and us moderates just blocking them with a shield of silly nonsense.
 

MrHide-Patten

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When lots of boys noticed it was beginning to look like a sausage fest? I'd say Anita Sarkeesian doing her whole little shtick, lite a fire under the issue in some way by the mere notion that female characters might be getting the pointy end of the stick. Then some children who think girls are icky or should be restrained to the kitchen took issue with that and here we are.

Just a shame she's not a very compelling critic, if she were a bit more charismatic then we might've seen something besides a proverbial shit storm.

People want to be treated better, people treating them like shit don't want to as it would incovienace them.
 

Something Amyss

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Phasmal said:
I'm still waiting on someone to tell me the secrets of what gaming means to women and men and how it's different (c'mon dude don't leave me hangin')- but I think you're spot on.
If anyone tells you, will you let me know? Like, seriously, I'd like to know.

nightmare_gorilla said:
this is going to make me sound like an asshole but I don't think there is an "issue" with girls in games. within games themselves women are treated about as fairly as they are in any other medium which is to say not very fairly at all. but I think video games often times do better job with women than movies and tv shows they just have a larger library to draw from because they've been around longer. I think all media could do a better job being more inclusive without being exploitative but in games yeah we still have a ways to go but it's not nearly as bad as some would want you to believe.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall a time I've ever seen music fans or movie buffs asking if women should be allowed in "their" hobby. I can't remember the last time that was asked of feminists in other media, either. Hell, Anita Sarkeesian was a nobody when she was talking about tropes in movies and which films and shows passed the Bechdel Test.

I would say that yes, this is sort of a unique thing in terms of media.
 

BrokenTinker

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My gaming experience started with a Macintosh graybox thing at elementary school, then it was the atari, but my fondest memory was with NES and Tetris. See, the thing was, there were simply no divide for gaming between the genders when I was growing up. I've a cousin that dove instinctive to save the NES when the cabinet it was on collapsed somehow. We still tease her to this day about her worrying more about a console than her own safety. I lived in one of the skyscraper apartment as is common for non-upperclass families in Hong Kong, so kids on the same floor simply just play together after doing homework.

NES was the glue that had us together as we rotate through the different apartments (shoebox apartments were already a thing back then) where people play different things. Girls tend to like playing tetris, ice climber and that penguin in antarctica thing where you try to dodge obstacles and stuff. The guys were divided playing vertical plane shooters, tetris, that balloon popper thing and I think popeye? Can't really remember. But the thing was, we didn't care about the genders, if you happen to feel like playing X game, go to here, feel like playing Y game, go to this place today. Girls have different taste in games, that's all. But when it comes down to tetris (and the spontaneous Tetris neighbourhood tournament, where the entry fee was literally a dime), the game was on, even the adults joined in after work. The winner gets to grab a jar of those hawkthorne or other cheap bunk candies at the local herbal pharmacist/drugstore/convenient store and just share it with everyone. For us, and for the adults (some of which are now avid Candy Crush and that digging game by the same company, people that are literally in retirement homes), gender was never a factor. We had fun, that was that.

It was a different story with DnD and MTG, gender didn't play a matter, but if you are caught playing it, you are either sent to counseling, detention or suspension. But that was after moving away from HK and to Canada.

From what I noticed, the divide first started western companies specifically targeted the teenage male. I think it is the result of magazines purchases being primarily done by stupid guy that buy it for the "legal porn" (maybe it's just my area, but a lot of boys were curious about shit like playboy, even softcore porn were hard to get back in the days). Teenage boy became the primary consumers of these game magazines which no doubt influenced publishers into targeting them as well. For example, game magazines will do survey of their readers, it will turn out that it's mostly a male demographics, because girl simply don't care about these magazines that feature mostly eyecandies. That eventually caused more games to be made catering to the younger male population, as the industry grows to eventually hit mainstream, that core components of their business model stayed. With more awareness and marketing dollar thrown out there, it gives the illusion that there are no girl gamers.

On the flipside, you've the phenomenon known as Ragnarok Online. It was arguably one of the first widespread MMO, you might not have played it, but I'm pretty damn sure you'd have at least heard of it. The amount of girls that were in that game is unbelievable, but a lot of them opted to play as guys (same reason why girls opted to play as girls), so few people aside from people that actually know the player themselves know that. I noticed that there were trashtalk saying that there are no girls on it, but that seemed to be from mostly western players (we simply know that isn't true for eastern players, hell, some of us were in guilds where girls outnumbered guys 2:1). One thing I did learn is that different sexes have different preferences. The girls and some guys were OBSESSED with getting hats and accessories (one can even argue that this is the origin of the TF2 hats collection feature ;P), while others were just after the best items/cards/highest level.

Move forward a few more years, the industry is now mainstream. Publishers are teetering on being wiped out with the new digital format. Mergers, acquisitions, bankruptcy, and so forth are common place. Publishers are forced to create games that will guaranteed profit, so they acquire a risk-aversion behaviour. According to their data, young male make up the largest pie, so they make games that cater to them. It boils down to raw, business decisions. Publisher will go where there is demand. It's a sort of chicken and egg problem, consumer wants something, creators provide that something. An outside voice with a political agenda demands the creators to provide something that there's little obvious demand for, demands that can very well tank the company. These outside voices hold no stakes in the creators (or maybe even wishing for their downfall), it's one thing to ask for a product to cater to x taste, it is another to force (yes, force, using bad PR and such) a creator to change their games that were obviously targeting one audience to focus on another group that might not (or outright, don't) have interest in that particular genre.

The only divide in gender is just a matter of taste, but business decisions + "activists" that's forcibly trying to change contents being produced have made it into an issue about genders. Want an easy sample? Demo an action game and a puzzle game, there will be obviously be some difference in the people crowding around the two demos. But it will be crowded by both genders nonetheless.
 

mecegirl

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Zachary Amaranth said:
nightmare_gorilla said:
this is going to make me sound like an asshole but I don't think there is an "issue" with girls in games. within games themselves women are treated about as fairly as they are in any other medium which is to say not very fairly at all. but I think video games often times do better job with women than movies and tv shows they just have a larger library to draw from because they've been around longer. I think all media could do a better job being more inclusive without being exploitative but in games yeah we still have a ways to go but it's not nearly as bad as some would want you to believe.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't recall a time I've ever seen music fans or movie buffs asking if women should be allowed in "their" hobby. I can't remember the last time that was asked of feminists in other media, either. Hell, Anita Sarkeesian was a nobody when she was talking about tropes in movies and which films and shows passed the Bechdel Test.

I would say that yes, this is sort of a unique thing in terms of media.
I've seen it happen with certain forms of Rock music. And the exact same thing that has been going on with the online video game community right now has been going on within the the online superhero comic book community for at least a decade.

As far as novels go I've seen more arguing back in forth about issues of racial representation than anything else. The same with movies because so many books and older movies are being remade into big budget films that often lack racial diversity.
 

Robert Marrs

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Frankly I remember playing video games regularly with people of all walks of life. There was never an issue. It seems like it was only made an issue when people on the internet started to complain about things that nobody else was complaining about. The more I think about everything that is going on in the webs these days the more I realize how little it has affected my actual gaming life. Not that everything going on isn't relevant or important. It is. Just that what I consider to be drama in the video game world is unknown to a large portion of people who play them.
 

seditary

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In my experience its gone like this. When I'm offline women in gaming has never been and still isn't an issue. Girls play the games they like and are treated the same as their male peers. When I'm online its one of the biggest problems the industry has and has always had. Girls can't play anything because its all male pandering and are constantly harassed for their gender.
 

the December King

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This thread has been FASCINATING. Other threads have been dealing in labels and lumping groups into boxes with baggage, but this thread is about, within reason, actually sharing individual experiences growing up with games, from both sexes. It's awesome.

I'd like to contribute.

I grew up with parents that snuck back into the living room after tucking my brother and I into bed to play the Gemini and Atari for hours. They had a collection of about 40 games. I was brought up on those cartridge games, Atari, and then Nintendo. At school, we were shown TI Basic as almost a curio in some classes, and I took to it like crack. I don't recall too many girls playing much of anything during that time, but then again, I was already moving away from competitive multiplayer games, and into the realm of single play, because I was more of a nerd.

Actually, that needs explaining. I was a nerd, and a bit awkward. But I was 'the drawer', or 'the artist'. Everyone knew me at school, and I could walk among several cliques and groups with very little bullying (some, always, but not nearly as bad as others). I was in no way 'popular'.

With the nintendo, my brother and I started to compulsively rent or buy games, and complete them. I had about 85 games beat by the time the SNES came along, and my brother had even more (he was more open to other types of games, I was all about RPG, action and platformers, and 'proto-shooters'). There was little room for other players for me back then- I was playing solo.

By the time we got a 386, at the beginning of Jr.High, I fell into Wolfenstein and simillar games and never looked up again. I was already cemented as a nerd at school, had relatively few girls who were friends, at least at first, and was having a blast. I also began a D&D group, which was at first, and for the next three years, all boys. This can be easily attributed to my awkwardness during adolescence- I just never thought to even ask if any of the few girls I knew back then wanted to try it. I read stories about groups that had girl players in Dragon Magazine, and thought it was exotic and awesome... heh.

Highschool got busy fast. My videogaming was almost all computer-based by then, and Doom mods were my passtime- I was making my own levels and monsters, and loved it. My D&D group took on it's first batch of female players- at first it was a player's girlfriend, and she brought along a friend, and then another friend... but in hindsight it all went so smoothly.

I'm still playing D&D, and as a comparison I'm older than you by a bit, I think, Zachary... I reckon the main campaign is over 20 years old, at any rate. Girls in my favourite passtime, D&D, are a non-issue. As in, we are all just players. Hell, we're all DMs too, for that matter. Games on the other hand, well, I guess it doesn't matter to me, as I still only play solo games, occasionally firing up a multiplayer like "Borderlands" or "Godmode" with my brother, or "minecraft"/"7 Days to Die" with some of the D&D crowd.
 

RA92

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I think there's an interesting correlation between the rise of the Western console and the increasing masculinity in games. When the Japanese consoles ruled, the intended audience for mascots like Mario and Sonic were fairly gender-neutral. When the PS1 launched and it was trying to make gaming 'cool', it didn't try to do so by being gender-specific...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8427/7840533268_91ced29186_z.jpg

With the rise of the XBox and the advent of ultra-masculine franchises like Halo and Gears of War, Western publishers seemed to find a comfortable niche in marketing games to teenage boys' sensibilities. Thus, today's juvenile (but not whimsical!) power fantasy AAA games.
 

Something Amyss

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mecegirl said:
I've seen it happen with certain forms of Rock music. And the exact same thing that has been going on with the online video game community right now has been going on within the the online superhero comic book community for at least a decade.

As far as novels go I've seen more arguing back in forth about issues of racial representation than anything else. The same with movies because so many books and older movies are being remade into big budget films that often lack racial diversity.
I will definitely admit that the overall diversity debate in comics since...Well, many years ago does mean this isn't a single media issue, but the idea that comics and a couple genres of rock (Though I've frequently heard people say women can't sing) doesn't particularly make this something going on everywhere, either.

seditary said:
In my experience its gone like this. When I'm offline women in gaming has never been and still isn't an issue. Girls play the games they like and are treated the same as their male peers. When I'm online its one of the biggest problems the industry has and has always had. Girls can't play anything because its all male pandering and are constantly harassed for their gender.
Glad that's your experience. Unfortunately, that's really not the case for a lot of people.
 

carnex

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I wasn't aware that there was an issue. Other than certain percentage of utter assholes that harass, insult etc everyone or just females for various reasons I don't see any issue with females playing games. I for one, and people around me always actually wanted more female gamers.