when did scientific discussion become a troll off?

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Vanguard_Ex

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Mar 19, 2008
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Because your face.

Because it gets to a point where, quite frankly, you don't want to fucking discuss everything. I have a friend who doesn't really do it nowadays, but I used to get to the point where I frequently wanted to tell him to shut the hell up and kick his ass out of the door. I love him but he used to counter practically everything I said with a 'Yeah, but' and start arguing it. Half the time it wasn't even an opinion he was arguing.
 

TitanDrone

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Jul 13, 2011
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Having a scientific discussion requires a similar level of education on the part of the participants. I hail from a small country with a comprehensive and taxpayer financed education system (from preschool all the way to university.) In my experience this relatively high level of education shapes the public discourse and enables relatively complex discussions across vast divides like income and social background.

To me, the larger obstacle to a scientific discussion is institutionalized stupidity. A society facing a crisis often rely on the well educated.
Example.: In war some people design and build the weapons and some operate them. And in a natural disaster the highly educated help to analyse and plan ahead to make the next unforeseen event less unforeseen.

If you find yourself wanting or needing to have a scientific discussion and cannot, the best you can do is try to find a less stupid person to talk to.
 

teisjm

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Mar 3, 2009
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Parttaking in a scientific discussion requires both intelegence, and knowledge about the matter beeing discussed, and often a fair bit of knowledge about the physics/facts/prevailing theories on the subject.

Trolling a scientific discussion requires none of the above, unless you wanna do it in a way even the people parttaking in the discussion can enjoy and get a laugh out of, despite it not adding anything relevant.

If i'm in a serious thread, i won't be shy to leave a joke behind, but more often than not followed/preceded by an "on a serious note" and an actual contribution.

I often complelety pass responsing to a thread, if i don't have a chane to say anything usefull, because what's beeing discussed is something i simply don't really know shit about, and leaving an attempt at a response, without anything to back it up will more often than not yield you nothing but people who studied the matter briefly, thinking they're accepted experts "i've been in film school for 2 months now, my oppinion on anything on screen is the unquestionable truth" for instance.
 

Loonyyy

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Jul 10, 2009
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@ OP. Possibly because people are sadly misinformed about science, such as your understanding of Facts and Theories. Scientists do not deal in "Facts". They deal in Observations, hypothesis and Theories. Science is not a trolling contest: When actual scientists, or at least skeptically minded folk engage in discussion, the result is almost always unity in ideas, or the acceptance that there remains a doubt due to the lack of evidence. A scientist can be convinced of anything where evidence is concerned. Most of the time, personal emotion doesn't come into discussions (Though no-one is perfect). Please don't make this assertion, it isn't correct. People arguing whether life evolved or was created is not scientific discussion, nearly all forum posts about science are not scientific discussion, it is personal opinion and belief.

What you see are observations: Gravities effect on unsupported objects (Falling) is an observation.

A hypothesis explains this, and potentially connects elements, explaining things. A hypothesis is considered incorrect (Null Hypothesis) until tested, to around 95-99% certainty that there is an effect not previously explained. I may hypothesis that things fall by being attracted to each other, or by their being an external force pulling on them. I assume this to be incorrect until I can Prove it.
When hypothesis are proven, and demonstrated, to the point where they both explain the phenomena and can stand up to the criticism of other scientists (Peer Reviewed Research) it may become a theory. Theories are generally as close to "Facts" as it comes in science. They explain phenomena and accurately predict outcomes. Theories are usually accepted by above 90% of scientists in the field.

Gravity is a theory, yet our understanding of it led us to the moon.
Evolution is a theory, yet it is used to help understand our origins, and has potential applications in the treatment of viruses (Such as the Flu).
Germ Theory is a Theory, (Lol) which is the only reason that hospitals make people healthier rather than killing them (Prior, infection was unexplained, and doctors were not hygienic)
A theory is simply the BEST explanation at the time, fitting the elements (Newton's gravitational theory is accurate for the earth system, but doesn't explain accurately the motion of planets. Einstein's static volume universe theory was incorrect, but his relativity work and equations contributed to understanding the expanding universe which replaced it)

People should understand the "Theory" Never implies a doubt. It implies as far as science is concerned, a certainty. The term "Open-Minded" is often misused, being open minded doesn't have any impact on science. I'm no zealot, but if someone tries to convince me that dismissing psychics (Who have never scientifically proven their abilities) is closed minded, and that I should give them my money, they're failing to understand the difference between skepticism and denial.

Science is Closed-Minded. You're assumed to be incorrect (Null-Hypothesis) unless you can prove or demonstrate evidence to prove your claims. If your ideas are good, then evidence backs them up, and Science expands. If you require no evidence, then why won't you believe in my Flying Spaghetti Monster?

Sorry for the Wall'o'Text TLDR: Scientific debate has never been, and is not, a "Troll off". It is reasoned discussion, where beliefs and hypothesis must coincide with evidence.
To assert otherwise is wrong, and simply poisoning the well for less informed people who believe that unqualified discussion and personal philosophy are scientific discussion.
 

Liudeius

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Oct 5, 2010
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Because there are too many people with your view of science.
That everything is "not true" so you can say whatever the F*** you want.

Everything in science is open to change, that doesn't mean it all must be treated as wrong.

Evolution is such that it IS fact as far as anything can be fact.

Without valid reasoning to contradict or dispute an idea, that idea can not be contradicted/disputed.

Virtually all of these "trolling" arguments are actually Pseudo-scientists vs. real scientists (Evolution, global warming, ect.)
 

Atmos Duality

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the spud said:
I assume that you are talking of the high number of "your thoughts on religion" threads that have been floating around as of late. I guess it is just one of those things that people will defend to the death, I don't know.
It's a rational force arguing with an irrational force. Of course it's an easy topic to troll.
As everyone has pointed out: It's the Internet. Anonymity makes people into assholes.
If you put your beliefs up (no matter what they are) expect them to be slaughtered whole-sale for nothing more than a few yucks at least because SOMEONE out there is going to hate you for keeping them.
 

Suicidejim

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Jul 1, 2011
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I would say it generally comes down to a lack of open-mindedness and common courtesy. Too often you get people who are determined to convert their opposition to their point of view, but have absolutely no intention of seeing the other side of the issue, and will resort to insults and flawed logic to voice their disagreement. What makes that worse is that it's very hard for the other side, who has presumably been offended, to then continue being reasonable and polite, so eventually they either leave in disgust or it turns into a two-way insult hurling contest. Also, those who are most likely to enter discussions and forums about these kinds of things will be people who are passionate about the subject, i.e. the ones with the more extreme views.

Now, before someone attacks me on it, no, I don't have evidence for my above points, and yes, they are just hypotheses. That's one of the issues with the scientific debates in particular, it's heavily reliant on empirical evidence, so people are a stickler for fine details, and often won't listen to you until you've presented statistics and evidence to back you up (but even if you do have the attention span for something like that, nobody will pay attention to any evidence you provide if it contradicts their position).

Jordi said:
But a far more significant criticism in my opinion is that people are disputing that the preconditions for evolution are met by the building blocks of life. The argument is basically that the fraction of configurations of amino acids that are viable for life is so small that it would take many times the lifetime of the universe to get one by random mutations. It follows from this that only decreases in complexity and variety are plausible, so we couldn't have evolved from single cell organisms. At most we could have (d)evolved from slightly more complex proto-humans (and dogs from proto-dogs, etc.), which is nicely consistent with the intelligent design view.
I personally still believe that the evolution theory is probably true, but I haven't been able to come up with a convincing counter-argument for this yet. If anyone does, I'd be interested in hearing it.
Regarding that criticism, my only point to add would be that evolution is not, and has never been, a theory on the origin of life. It's simply not well-equipped to deal with something that no theory has ever been able to comfortably address. If you imagine some complex equation where you're pretty sure you've figured out a big chunk of it, but yet there seems to be a lot left to figure out, that's kind of where we are. We have one of the key mechanisms, but we're still missing details. If those could be filled in, we may be able to better address your concern. Until we know how life began, we can't be sure exactly what the original conditions were like, and what mechanisms may have been involved. I realize that barely counts as a counter-argument, but it's important not to confuse evolution with a theory on how life began, since that's a common misconception (I'm not saying that you did, but it came close).
 

Snoozer

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Jun 8, 2011
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zarguhl said:
When science became political rather than scientific.

Because of course, we're all going to die from SARS, Swine Flu, Global Warming, Climate Change, A New Ice Age and the y2k bug RIGHT NOW ALL AT ONCE!!!!
I think this is a media problem. Media "overinterprets" some things to get news more interesting. In fact if you look at these dangers, no scientist would tell you that they are gona kill everybody wihing no to time. The problem is that people are getting desensitised and won't understand a real threat anymore if they see one.
Global warming is a perfect example. If people would look at facts they would realize that it can't work to blow CO2 in the air forever, that there will be in fact changes that will lead to global problems, but that this won't occour RIGHT NOW ALL AT ONCE !!!! but rather serval years, so we have to change our attitude.

Swine flu by the way never was that dangerous, in fact swine flu is less dangerous that the normal flu and saved thousands of lives in cases in which people were infected with the less dangereous swine flu insead of of a normal flu.

The reason why there is so little scinetific discussion is easy:
People are dumb, don't inform themselves and are not trained to work scinetific, so they simply can't.
 

Lord Legion

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Feb 26, 2010
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Hammeroj said:
Lord Legion said:
I agree most(ly) whole-heartedly... it is certainly the most viable scientific explanation, but that doesn't mean it can fill in all the gaps. And, there are some awfully big gaps in evolutionary theory. Take for instance irreducibly complex systems, such as the eye... for this to come about there would have to have been creatures lugging around useless half formed tumors that had not yet gained any function or value. Survival of the fittest would have excluded them... in fact, in survival of the fittest, it is often the simplest organism that succeeds, and that begs the question as to why life got more complex in the first place.

It still works for me tho.
No. No no no no no. You don't go around saying there are flaws to a theory and then name them, when all they are are just byproducts of your own ignorance.

On this specific example...

You are welcome.
Thanks lol. Yeah, I kinda realized all that when I pressed post, but had other things to attend to rather than rewrite it all. No need to get snippety tho hahaha, my specialty lies near cosmology, not evolutionary science.
 

DannyHale09

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Sep 6, 2009
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I bet 80% of the people here explaining how 'some people are just too immature for a real adult discussion' are actually the 'trolls' he was referencing.

I hate the term 'Troll' it's so overused by annoying online children that were raised by the internet.
 

TheRightToArmBears

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Dec 13, 2008
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When people (on both sides) don't really know what they're talking about and get fanatical. The number of pretentious arsehats I've seen on here talking about SCIENCE!!! like it's a god-damned religion is ridiculous.
 

Nudu

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Jun 1, 2011
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Well, if I'm talking reproduction, I'm not going to treat the sex theory and the stork theory as equal. Same thing about evolution.

People often misunderstand what "theory" means. It doesn't mean that you can spew out all sorts of nonsense and call yourself a scientist.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

The Killjoy Detective returns!
Jan 23, 2011
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shrub231 said:
as of late i have noticed that a great many people don't seem to know what is ment by scientific discussion. as far as my understanding goes, scientific disscussion is to be undertake with an open mind, meaning that nothing is absolute, and all ideas are theory based, not factual. as a fact is defined as being indesputable, and not many scientific theories(evolution included) have been elevated to such a position.

but i'm rambling, tell me escapist why do fvery few partake in discussion anymore
This is why. You can't have a "scientific discussion" if a lot of people do not even know what a scientific theory is. It is the highest status that can be achieved in science.
http://www.notjustatheory.com/
 

dmase

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Mar 12, 2009
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Go look up scientific theory and scientific fact before continuing this. To be honest i'm not sure why you would argue whether or not evolution is real. You can argue a lot of mechanisms involved if your an intelligent design person you can argue that god has pushed evolution the way he wants but there is no question evolution is a thing[HEADING=1].[/HEADING]
 

lacktheknack

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Jan 19, 2009
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Aaaaaaaand a bunch of the first few posts came out as angry and high-and-mighty. Well meta'd, Escapist.

Anyways, probably around the point that someone disagreed with someone else.
 

Dimitriov

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May 24, 2010
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Impartiality is not in line with the emotional nature of being human.

And that's a good thing, truth is more important than facts :p