When does accessibility become 'hand-holding'?

[elvor0]

When it doesn't at least attempt to make you work things out for yourself, Fable 3 was the worst by far, that damn glowing trail would take you where ever you needed to go, no thinking, just follow the trail. Mind you, you needed it to find your way around such a badly designed game world. No map or radar, and the only map that did exist was out of scale with the game world, alongside not actually having a player pointer on it.

I've seen people go from Fable 3 to Red Dead redemption, and their heads explode at the sheer concept of looking at a map.

"Why doesn't the game just tell you where to go?!"

"Well it does, look there it is on the map, now go towards it."

"But it doesn't tell me HOW TO GET THERE!"

"Look at the map, you'll have to figure out the route as you go along."

"Well that takes the fun out of the game doesn't it?"

*THE MIND BOGGLES!*

The concept of the areas the stranger quest was in was just far too much for them to deal with.
Y'know the fact that you might have to look around for this dude we have no way of knowing where he might be, might require you to actually LOOK for him.


Yeah just watch the arbitry Egoraptor video on Megaman X

The thing is, these days, his points of "Nobody wants to feel stupid and be constantly told what to do like the can't recognize patterns and take things in like you need to do to function in...life" Seems to be the opposite of what a lot new gamers expect these days. It's like they can't handle having to think or remember anything longer than 5 seconds.

 

[Tupolev]

So when do you chaps believe that accessibility goes too far, and becomes 'hand-holding'?

It's generally more qualitative than a simple axis. Something like Tetris is fully capable of being extremely accessable, non-hand-holding, and challenging all at once. On a design level, the answer to how you should drop people in are going to differ by game, and there's not necessarily always going to be a "best" approach.

 

[TrevHead]

A game shouldn't solve itself. There's nothing wrong with making an easier difficulty for Dark Souls, elitists who are worried about their badge of honour being taken away are just equating it with hand holding. Nobody wants that.

Because as discussed in this thread what ppl consider holdholding varies from person to person. In an ideal world games would not just tackle technical difficulty modes like HP and stats but also other obscure forms of difficulty. The sad fact is that many AAA games have too much handholding even for the average gamer.

I honestly don't see why some ppl would get up in arms over Dark Souls, its one game that is like mana from heaven for a niche subset of oldschool hardcore gamers who what no handholding whatsoever in the game and prefer to use trial & error, FAQs, wikis and gameplay vids to hone their skills.

Maybe the PC port has complicated matters somewhat as I can understand a none gamepad PC gamer getting overly annoyed with the controls adding to the difficulty and it been such a big difference from the type of games they are used to playing, ie The Witcher with quicksaving.

 

[wadark]

As many have said it comes down to personal preference. I personally found it very annoying and "hand holdy" that Assassins Creed constantly popped up with the same on-screen tips throughout the entire course of the game. Thank you, AC, but I do recall that the X button stabs people, I don't need to be reminded six thousand times.

But yes, "hand holding" in most contexts is simply another word people use for difficulty and difficulty that doesn't relate specifically to numbers being stacked for or against the player is completely subjective. So what one person defines as hand holding might be a helpful tutorial to others.

Some people have criticized World of Warcraft for handholding too much in the early levelling, but I'd take that any day over FFXI, which when I played dropped you in the middle of a city with absolutely zero instruction and said "have fun". Then I spent the next hour trying to figure out what to do next.

 

[daveman247]

Pretty sure Starfox Adventures did this as well, rendered most of the puzzles fucking useless when they could be solved by pressing one button. I know you didn't have to use it but it was annoying when the puzzles weren't exactly brain teasers.

Yeah but with tomb raider it was still just a hint, a little nudge not a walkthrough

I've never played starfox, so i wouldnt know

 

[Overusedname]

Mario games = Good. You almost always begin in a safe environment that let's you do whatever the hell you want and play with all the buttons, you have most moves available from the get go, and there will also be a SHORT, AND OPTIONAL helper dude or dudette there to helpfully say 'shake the wii-remote to activate the thing!' or 'Tap A when you land to jump higher!' It's non-intrusive, helpful, and awesome. It lets you figure things out for yourself, and if you can't, the explanation is quick and direct. New comers and veterans feel welcome.

Final Fantasy XIII = Bad. You can't play the full game until 25 hours in and it's all tutorials up to that point. You can't experiment with new leaders or characters up till that point, and most of the game is tutorials on how to fight...WHILE you fight. That's a major issue. It's always better to just make the gameplay somewhat 'obvious' and intuitive, then when things get more complex, make a hands on tutorial or an optional text dump or guide. That's what almost every other Final Fantasy did, as a matter of fact. FFXIII is simply patronizing and it burdens the player with massive dumps of info at once.

Like people have said, it's a matter of preference, so you need to accommodate for everyone. It's harder to program and takes some time, but it's an important part of good game design.

 

[Pink Gregory]

As many have said it comes down to personal preference. I personally found it very annoying and "hand holdy" that Assassins Creed constantly popped up with the same on-screen tips throughout the entire course of the game. Thank you, AC, but I do recall that the X button stabs people, I don't need to be reminded six thousand times.

But at least we had the option to turn the different elements of the HUD off (okay, so that didn't seem to work as well in Brotherhood and Revelations, but I liked having the option anyway.)

 

[piinyouri]

Funny enough, the last game I played that brought on this feeling was Okami.


The little tick thing that doubled as essentially Navi really got grating later on. It started robbing me out of any sense of achievement, however small it may have been to begin with.

Example, I was in the dungeon that had the lightning rods, but hadn't yet got the brush technique that allowed me to interact with them.

Upon getting it, I immediately went to go use it on one, but not before that little shit popped up and said "Hey, maybe you should use it on those rods!"

Way to never let me feel like I'm doing things on my own.

This is just a small gripe, the game was fun otherwise.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

As many have said it comes down to personal preference. I personally found it very annoying and "hand holdy" that Assassins Creed constantly popped up with the same on-screen tips throughout the entire course of the game. Thank you, AC, but I do recall that the X button stabs people, I don't need to be reminded six thousand times.

snip

The button menu is mainly there because there are lots of different contextual actions that use the same buttons but in low/high profile. If it really bugs you you can turn it off.

 

[Something Amyss]

Because as discussed in this thread what ppl consider holdholding varies from person to person.

yes i no but sumtiems its stoopid n werthless 2 say liek in dose casez

I honestly don't see why some ppl would get up in arms over Dark Souls, its one game that is like mana from heaven for a niche subset of oldschool hardcore gamers who what no handholding whatsoever in the game and prefer to use trial & error, FAQs, wikis and gameplay vids to hone their skills.

lol if ur hardkor u shudnt yewz faksnwikiz dey r 4 newbz y u h8 handholding if u yews dem

neway y do u care if ppl want n opshun 4 ezr gaemplay hao duz it hrt da hardkor 2 hav a lower teer 4 da noobz

i think they should take the splosion man/ ms splosion man route. Take the easy mode and you must wear a pink dress/ get a fat ass

I think I must have taken easy mode in life then.

I do like your idea of segregating the easy and hard mode players, though.

 

[Vault101]

as said before...when the game takes controll away

unrelated but it kind of really annoyed me how charachters in ME3 wouls go into "ecyclopedia mode"

I mean for fucks sake...if youve played the trilogy up to this point READ THE CODEX if you don't know somthng...like the fact that Assari live for 1000 years or that thing that shepard did once

 

[KarlMonster]

When does 'accessibility' become 'hand holding'?

Bioshock. You could turn off the quest arrow, and in-game hints (allegedly). But the game can't leave you alone. "SEARCH containers for LOOT" it whispers.

In perturbation, I riposte; "Didn't I turn you off, you annoying developer ex machina? Stop pestering me whilst I am trying to run away play the game."

 

[Joccaren]

When its only purpose it to make the game easier.
Not to make the game's mechanics better, or to improve the interface with already established feature, but when it actively tries to make the game require less thinking and general input from the player to play.

Example, a minimap in one game. In this game, exploration isn't really key. The joy is in other mechanics, and the minimap enhances these other mechanics whilst improving the experience of the player. This is not hand holding.

In another game, there is a minimap. The goal of the game is to explore each level, look for a couple of key people whom you are given photos of, and then kill them - or something along such lines. The minimap shows you the layout of the level, and highlights the locations of each person you are looking for. This is handholding. Seeing as the aim of the game is exploring each level, and searching for people, this turns from something that requires player input and thinking into something that is merely "Follow the flashing red dot. Press Button. Next level". It fights against the mechanics of the game just to make it more 'accessible'.

It changes from game to game, though anything that makes the game easier without enhancing the mechanics and gameplay of the game is handholding IMO.

 

[Yopaz]

Something that came to mind lookin' at the raft of Dark Souls difficulty threads, and the term 'hand-holding' seems to come up a whole bunch when referring to especially modern releases.

So when do you chaps believe that accessibility goes too far, and becomes 'hand-holding'?

When I'm delayed from playing the bloody game.

I don't mind if the game has popups to say "press X to Y" or something like that but if it actively stops me from playing to say "hey, DID YOU KNOW YOU CAN PRESS R2 TO SHOOT YOUR GUN. DID YA KNOW THAT. HUH?????? HUH????? DID YA??????????????????"

Then is annoys me a bit.

Hey, you can move the analog stick to move. Now try that out until you got the hang of it. Did you know shooting against the head can deal more damage? Try that now. When a game feels like informing you about the most obvious things and to take away control to explain it I call that hand holding.

Subtle tutorial is what I prefer. Zelda often does a great job of this giving you more complex puzzles to solve with your new gear as you move on. Then there are games who throws you right into a situation where you get to make full use of your skills, but dying is nearly impossible (kinda like Metroid Prime and Kameo) which is also good. You get to practice skills and figure out things on your own with a few helpful messages to give you advice which is also pretty neat. Then some games give you optional tutorial (like Banjo Kazooie where you just had to say you had played before) which is also a great way to do things.

 

[l0ckd0wn]

As with most things, I'd like to hold up the original Deus Ex as an example of a game that doesn't hold your hand.

Good example. To add to this I tap Oblivion.

Oblivion outright gives you an option to take a brief and thorough tutorial that neither detracts from the game nor gives a person who takes it any real advantage. Placing a tutorial in game, either embedded and giving the player the option, or giving a separate, scenario based tutorial is the best way to get away from hand holding.

 

[Soopy]

Back in my day, if we needed to know how to perform a certain function. We read the fucking manual...

 

[bojackx]

I don't get annoyed by hand-holding very much in games, but there is one single example that totally pissed me off.

In Super Mario 3D Land, once you lose more than 5 lives on a single level, you get a white glowing raccoon leaf, which makes you invincible, as well as having the benefits of being raccoon Mario. If that wasn't bad enough, if you fail 10 times in one level (I was trying to get a really difficult star coin), you get an item which if used, teleports you all the way to the flag at the end of the level. I don't think I've ever been so insulted by a game, so much so that I haven't bought New Super Mario Bros. 2 because that same feature is still included.

 

[GundamSentinel]

Back in my day, if we needed to know how to perform a certain function. We read the fucking manual...

Then again, manuals these days are a single page of legal information. The sad times we live in...

To me, it's a very fine line:

- I don't mind a tutorial or two, but there are games like GTA IV where the first half of the game is nothing but tutorial. And then there are games like Dark Souls, where you generally won't find a good part of the game's content without the wiki. Both are bad.

- I don't mind having a map that gives an idea about where to go, but having the game give checkpoints every 10 meters and constantly reminding you of them is horrible.

- I don't mind UI tooltips (especially not after I've been away from the game for a fair while), but the game telling you how to defeat every enemy in the game is just stupid.

It's really a matter of what kind of game you make and who your expected audience is. Especially for big budget titles it can be very difficult to find a good balance there, so personally I don't really get too worked up about too few or too many hints.

But please, please make tutorials optional. I don't want to have to run through the use of the WSAD keys or analog sticks every time I start a new game.